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Orchard Park businessman charged in beheading of wife

It doesn't matter if it is a twisting of the religion, or if they have hijacked Islam, the point is that for these groups, religion and Islam is at the very core of their movement.

The fact that these groups are twisting Islam to fit their own ends doesn't matter to you?

The fact that they have to twist Islam means that the violence isn't being religiously inspired -- the religion is being warped into a tool which is in turn used to justify the violence. If their twisted version of Islam wins them recruits, so much the better, but that's not even the main reason they do it, and if there had been no Islam around for them to twist they would've found something else.
 
Just the same, the Islamic caliphates back in the day enforced their rules on their subjects too. But now its the 21st century. Other religions have transformed and coexisted with modern life, but Islamic countries haven't transformed significantly, the one exception may be Turkey.

They haven't transformed and coexisted. They lost their ability to control the populace.

In other words, they didn't stop doing what they were doing because they chose to, they had to.

That's the difference.
 
They haven't transformed and coexisted. They lost their ability to control the populace.

In other words, they didn't stop doing what they were doing because they chose to, they had to.

That's the difference.

Nevertheless they changed, and its time the primitive Islamic societies of the world also change.
 
Nevertheless they changed, and its time the primitive Islamic societies of the world also change.

You know what's even more primitive?

The kind of hate and fear you've been venting at Islam in general. That kind of hate and fear has been around since the dawn of man.

It's time for you to change -- before you point your finger at others.
 
The fact that these groups are twisting Islam to fit their own ends doesn't matter to you?

The fact that they have to twist Islam means that the violence isn't being religiously inspired -- the religion is being warped into a tool which is in turn used to justify the violence. If their twisted version of Islam wins them recruits, so much the better, but that's not even the main reason they do it, and if there had been no Islam around for them to twist they would've found something else.


How exactly have they twisted it exactly? This has been mainstream Islam since its very inception, what we need is liberal reformers to twist it from its steady 15 hundred year path into the modern era.
 
No, a perversion of Islam is at the very core of their movement.

Just like a perversion of Christianity was at the very core of the Roman Catholic Church and its quest for more and more power.

Um when exactly was it twisted? Mohammad was committing genocide and ethnic cleansing against the Jewish Banu tribes in the Arabian peninsula.
 
You know what's even more primitive?

The kind of hate and fear you've been venting at Islam in general. That kind of hate and fear has been around since the dawn of man.

It's time for you to change -- before you point your finger at others.

I'll get right on that, do me a favor hold your breath while you are waiting for me to change.:roll:

My enemies hatered is cultivated over centuries of bigotry and intolerance towards kafirs based on thier belief in a evil twisted idology, Islam. My hatred is based in thier hatred for me, the non-believer and there jihad which has resulted in the murder of innocent people every day.
 
I'll get right on that, do me a favor hold your breath while you are waiting for me to change.:roll:

Yeah, I know, it was a bit much to expect. Still, I hold out hope.

My enemies hatered is cultivated over centuries of bigotry and intolerance towards kafirs based on thier belief in a evil twisted idology, Islam. My hatred is based in thier hatred for me, the non-believer and there jihad which has resulted in the murder of innocent people every day.

Make all the excuses you want for your blind hatred, it doesn't change that it's time for you to make a change.

Just don't go accusing your antagonists (real or imagined) of primitive behavior, when yours is the most primitive of all (being one of the oldest of human traditions).

Plank, eye, pot, kettle, hilarious. :lol:
 
Make all the excuses you want for your blind hatred, it doesn't change that it's time for you to make a change.

He doesn't have to change....Islam has to change. The biggest problem the Muslim world faces is the lack of separation of church and state. The church is the government.

The hypocrisy that is Islam is also a problem. We are dealing with a culture that is still in dark ages. They reached a plateau several hundred years ago and have not really made any advancement culturally, politically, or socioeconomically. They are angered at the progression of the west and its mostly peaceful culture.
 
He doesn't have to change....

What, you think hatred and fear are good things to be permeated with?

Islam has to change. The biggest problem the Muslim world faces is the lack of separation of church and state. The church is the government.

The hypocrisy that is Islam is also a problem. We are dealing with a culture that is still in dark ages. They reached a plateau several hundred years ago and have not really made any advancement culturally, politically, or socioeconomically. They are angered at the progression of the west and its mostly peaceful culture.

When are you going to figure out that, where the rubber meets the road, there is no single unified Islam? Islam is decentralized, localized, modified at times on a fundamental level by the pre-existing customs (some of the tribal and very old) already established in the socio-political environment into which it is introduced.

Just like any other religion in which there is no single recognized source of mortal authority.

That's why, for example, Swiss Muslims are very different from, say, Iranian Muslims.
 
He doesn't have to change....Islam has to change. The biggest problem the Muslim world faces is the lack of separation of church and state. The church is the government.

Bullcrap. Explain the existence of secular governments in majority Muslim countries. Explain Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Indonesia, Malaysia etc... The Muslim world is as diverse and complex as the rest of the world is.
 
Bullcrap. Explain the existence of secular governments in majority Muslim countries. Explain Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Indonesia, Malaysia etc... The Muslim world is as diverse and complex as the rest of the world is.

I hope I am not treading on some kind of nefarious ground here, but I am curious, are you a Swiss Muslim Arcana?

j-mac
 
Bullcrap. Explain the existence of secular governments in majority Muslim countries. Explain Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Indonesia, Malaysia etc... The Muslim world is as diverse and complex as the rest of the world is.

Didn't I already destroy this pathetic argument already? Do you really want me to list the laws that fly in the face of your claims again in each of those countries?
 
Didn't I already destroy this pathetic argument already? Do you really want me to list the laws that fly in the face of your claims again in each of those countries?

Sure, go right ahead and equate them with actual theocracies like Iran and Saudi Arabia. Bear in mind we're not talking about human rights violations here. That is something every single country on earth is guilty of, including the countries I listed. I could list a couple for your country alone. Ric was implying that every majority Muslim country is a theocracy, which is utter and complete bull****.
 
I am a Swiss/Canadian/Spanish/Italian atheist. Why?

I was just wondering. Not trying to box you in, but your arguments in defense of the Swiss Muslim community as a whole led me to believe that you may just be Muslim in faith.

j-mac
 
I was just wondering. Not trying to box you in, but your arguments in defense of the Swiss Muslim community as a whole led me to believe that you may just be Muslim in faith.

j-mac

Nah. I despise organized religion like you wouldn't believe. I just despise unjust generalizations even more. That, and I have a lot of friends from Kosovo.
 
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Nah. I despise organized religion like you wouldn't believe. I just despise unjust generalizations even more. That, and I have a lot of friends from Kosovo.


Ok, that is interesting....Do your friends from Kosovo recognize the help we offered them?


j-mac
 
Bullcrap. Explain the existence of secular governments in majority Muslim countries. Explain Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Indonesia, Malaysia etc... The Muslim world is as diverse and complex as the rest of the world is.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if you've done much reading about Islam, you would know that there is no differece between secular and religious life. Every aspect of life is governed by Islam. There is no beginning and end of it's application to one's life. Islam is all encompassing. So, you have your believers and non-believers. Non-believers fall into several catagories of tollerance.

And wasn't Indonesia in the process of removing constitutional protections from non-Muslims and moving to uniform application of shaira law? If I remember correctly (some time ago), the managing editor of the Indonesian "Playboy" magazine franchise was arrested and the last Playmate posed dressed rather than nude.

And that touchy feel good sentiment PC bull**** (separation of the secular and religious authority) does not exist in Islam.

In Islam jurisprudence (all five major Sunni versions, as well as Shi'ia) the secular and religious authority are the same. Islam is a theocracy in every sense. Since the last Caliphate (the Ottoman Empire) ended in 1919, the rise of secular governments in Islamic countries is a "modern" phenomena.

Those governments, increasingly, are secular in name only. Even Jordan (a "moderate" "democratic" Arab country) makes Islam its state religion. Jordan punishes apostasy (leaving Islam); blasphemy; non-Muslim prostelyzing; etc. with shaira punishments.
 
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if you've done much reading about Islam, you would know that there is no differece between secular and religious life. Every aspect of life is governed by Islam. There is no beginning and end of it's application to one's life. Islam is all encompassing. So, you have your believers and non-believers. Non-believers fall into several catagories of tollerance.

I understand that. It's the reason why most of the countries I mentioned usually have both Sharia and secular courts. The latter handle criminal matters, while the former deal with civil cases. Only a couple of Muslim countries are actual theocracies that strictly and systematically enforce every single aspect of Sharia law. All other countries pick and choose which parts of Sharia law to use and either disregard or even outlaw some other parts. Hadd offenses in most Middle Eastern countries very rarely carry the penalty set in the Koran.

And wasn't Indonesia in the process of removing constitutional protections from non-Muslims and moving to uniform application of shaira law?

I'd like to see proof of that please. Not saying I don't believe you, I just haven't been able to find anything that corroborates your statement.

If I remember correctly (some time ago), the managing editor of the Indonesian "Playboy" magazine franchise was arrested and the last Playmate posed dressed rather than nude.

That sounds familiar, although I don't think anyone was arrested at all. You forgot to mention that Indonesia is one of the few Muslim countries where magazines like Playboy are not banned. I will give you that the Indonesian version is much more conservative than the regular one. This in and of itself means very little, seeing as many non-Muslim countries ban these sort of magazines. Even Japan prohibits the regular version and has its own watered down version due to their indecency laws.

And that touchy feel good sentiment PC bull**** (separation of the secular and religious authority) does not exist in Islam.

In Islam jurisprudence (all five major Sunni versions, as well as Shi'ia) the secular and religious authority are the same. Islam is a theocracy in every sense. Since the last Caliphate (the Ottoman Empire) ended in 1919, the rise of secular governments in Islamic countries is a "modern" phenomena.

Well, I'm glad to see you at least admit that there are secular governments in Muslim countries.

Those governments, increasingly, are secular in name only. Even Jordan (a "moderate" "democratic" Arab country) makes Islam its state religion. Jordan punishes apostasy (leaving Islam); blasphemy; non-Muslim prostelyzing; etc. with shaira punishments.


I disagree. I see progress being made every day. Do they still have a ways to go? Absolutely, they do. But I see many encouraging signs for democracy and gender equality in all the countries I mentioned. Malaysia just appointed two women to their religious courts. Pakistan, Morocco, Lebanon, Indonesia and the West Bank have had women judges sit in these courts for quite a while now. Syria just banned the burka, fer chrissakes. :lol:

Why are you so willing to only focus on what still needs improvement and to completely disregard the progress that is being made every day? I find this sort of tunnel vision quite limiting.

Oh, and apostasy is rarely punished in Jordan, although it is still illegal. As for the sharia punishments doled out, in Jordan as well as other moderate countries, they are extremely minor compared to what happens in the real theocracies of Iran and Saudi Arabia.
 
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