Mandate could force gas stations out of business

TheNextEra said:

Again, I ask, what is the additional operational costs minus the tax write off?

Can you answer that or are you just gonna cry "the man is keeping us down"?

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Sure, let me just get my accountant right on it, because obviously this is a completely pointless issue unless the exact numbers are provided to your satisfaction.

TheNextEra said:

Mom and pop hardware stations went our of business long ago because of Walmart, Lowes, and Home Depot. Where is the outcry there?

As I asked before, can anyone answer, what is the additional operational costs minus the tax cuts for such additions?

Can anyone tell us this, or is this just a tantrum?

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April's requirements would have cost him $35,000, he said. Fasching used to sell the gasoline as a convenience for his car wash customers, and blames the new regulations for forcing him to stop.

"It will have some effect on my business, but at least I have the relief that I don't have to deal with these people anymore," he said.

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Mandate could force gas stations out of business - Pasadena Star-News

That's the number I can find, I know you think this is just whining and these small business owners should shut their traps and bow to the government but reality doesn't always bend to the whims of politicians.

If you are a good buisness you can adpapt to these changes.

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Was it even questionable whether bad business could adapt to any kind of change?

I am starting a list of sane people in California. Here is the first on my list and feel free to add your choice.

1.) ____________

TheNextEra said:

Question in regards to the original article is do those gas stations get an additional write off on taxes for this purchase?

If so, what is the problem? Just syain

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Of course. That doesn't change the fact that they have to spend the money in the first place. And they can only depreciate new equipment over several years.

The business has to spend thousands of dollars but only gets a tax write off worth hundreds of dollars. Being able to write an expense off doesn't mean it's free. You'd be much better off never buying the equipment if it doesn't help you earn money.

You could write off as an expense all the new double walled fiberglass underground tanks the government forced all the mom and pop gas stations to install but that didn't keep them from having to sell out to Time Saver Gas and EZ Serve. It was too much money up front.

In economic times that are currently being experienced the loss of any business can be critical for any state.
It is an established fact that small businesses employ more people (overall) than large business conglomerates.
If this measure is rigorously enforced it will have a detrimental effect on the economy of the state in question.
Gas stations cannot exist solely on the sale of gas.
They frequently sell other products, are often open 24 hrs per day, for which more staff are required.
Closure would send the unemployment sky high, this in turn would affect the taxes to the state.
However we shall await to see if the terminator will continue the termination of what was once the richest state of the union.

TheNextEra said:

Question in regards to the original article is do those gas stations get an additional write off on taxes for this purchase?

If so, what is the problem? Just syain

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I love it when people who have no idea what running a business is like say things like this.

Here's an example, pretend I am using crayon, of how absurd these types of statements are:

In order to comply with the new regulation, the small business owner has to spend, for purposes of illustration, $20,000 of his own money. Yes it is true that this expense brings down the small business owners taxable income; but it does not make up for the $20,000 dollars he had to shell out complying with idiotic regulations that do NOTHING to preserve the environment. Here is why; say the small business owners tax liability is 35%. Well, he will reduce his taxes by a mere $20,000 times .35% or a mere $7,000. But it cost him $20,000 to comply with said regulations therefore he is OUT $13,000.00.

But hey, that is the price one must pay to satisfy whacked out environmentalist regulations which change almost as fast as the weather and places the burden entirely on the business person thus increasing the costs for EVERYONE, particularly the small guy who barely makes ends meet that Liberals love to champion right?? Why do I say it increases the costs to the little guy? Well, in order to cover the additional expense of compliance, the business owners will also have to raise their prices. The people who pay the most for such misguided legislation happen to be the very people the Liberals love to champion and claim they want to help.

You just have to admire the irony of such Liberal ideas don’t you?
:roll:

sazerac said:

The mom and pop gas stations all went out of business long ago because of underground tank regulations.

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That is not a factual statement; there is a LOT of "mom and pop" stations still in business. The underground tank regulations only served to raise the costs to ALL of us who purchase gas products in the long run.

I suggest you do a search on gas station ownership; many of them are privately owned by small operators and families.

MrVicchio said:

Envirowackos 1, hard working people 0.


Mandate could force gas stations out of business - Pasadena Star-News

Small businesses, the little guy out there, has to shut down, has to stop earning a living.

I bet ya many of these places will get bought out by bigger companies... gee, you don't think that someone is looking to make money from this... nah.

This is really all about Mother Gaia right?

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So the gov't should be responsible for tweaking the playing field to allow more gas stations to stay open? Seriously, this is your stance?

We aren't allowed to change our fuel efficiancy standards because some people won't be able to sell gas? Heaven forbid they get a job in some other industry that is more beneficial for society.

Truth Detector said:

That is not a factual statement; there is a LOT of "mom and pop" stations still in business. The underground tank regulations only served to raise the costs to ALL of us who purchase gas products in the long run.

I suggest you do a search on gas station ownership; many of them are privately owned by small operators and families.

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If you say so. Not around here there aren't any.

Truth Detector said:

That is not a factual statement; there is a LOT of "mom and pop" stations still in business. The underground tank regulations only served to raise the costs to ALL of us who purchase gas products in the long run.

I suggest you do a search on gas station ownership; many of them are privately owned by small operators and families.

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You made the claim please provide some research on your claim.

winston53660 said:

You made the claim please provide some research on your claim.

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No, I countered the claim that most have been run out of the business. I see you are still too lazy to do your own research. :2wave:

Indy said:

So the gov't should be responsible for tweaking the playing field to allow more gas stations to stay open? Seriously, this is your stance?

We aren't allowed to change our fuel efficiancy standards because some people won't be able to sell gas? Heaven forbid they get a job in some other industry that is more beneficial for society.

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That is not the argument; the argument is that if the Government for the sake of a particular vocal constituency is going to pass onerous and absurd regulations that burden the small business person to comply with regulations supported by suspect science, then they should consider tax incentives to assist those businesses to perform said modifications.

If you don't know, California already passed numerous previous laws requiring gas owners to modify their pumps and tanks to rectify this issue. Now, once again, they have decided that was not enough so they passed a new law with new equipment requirements that are highly specialized, usually have a single source (perhaps lobbied for none-the-less) and are costly to implement. One has to wonder when enough will be enough.

But you have to ask yourself this question Indy, who ultimately pays for these modifications and who suffers the burden of these regulations the most once they have been paid for by the businesses?

Truth Detector said:

No, I countered the claim that most have been run out of the business. I see you are still too lazy to do your own research. :2wave:

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Why can not you back up your own claim?

I already busted you once on the the Rush thing not being charged.

Put up or shut up.

Truth Detector said:

That is not a factual statement; there is a LOT of "mom and pop" stations still in business. The underground tank regulations only served to raise the costs to ALL of us who purchase gas products in the long run.

I suggest you do a search on gas station ownership; many of them are privately owned by small operators and families.

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Deep trouble for gas stations - new environmental regulations | Nation's Business | Find Articles at BNET

A tough new federal law is expected to cause a sharp decline in the number of U.S. gasoline stations over the next six years. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) estimates that 53 percent of the approximately 80,000 rural gas stations - and 25 percent of the 200,000 stations nationwide - will close by the end of 1998 because of new federal regulations affecting underground storage tanks.

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There you go. Most went out of business.

winston53660 said:

Why can not you back up your own claim?

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I certainly can back up my claim; with personal experience as well; but that does not excuse your laziness and desire to make others do your research. Here’s an idea, prove me wrong. Carry on.

winston53660 said:

I already busted you once on the the Rush thing not being charged.

Put up or shut up.

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Funny case of rabid denial you have there. You made the FALSE statement that, and I quote: "Rush got busted good," then you posted statements that supported my comments that he didn't get "busted" for anything; particularly the argument related to the thread topic.

How profound that your lack of reading comprehension might be a possible explanation for your rabid denial.

You want to PROVE my statement wrong, do your own research and get back to me. I don't need to support my claim with anything more until you can PROVE it false.

Along with your reading comprehension problems and denial, you have an ODD idea about how to debate and what constitutes a factual statement.

sazerac said:

Deep trouble for gas stations - new environmental regulations | Nation's Business | Find Articles at BNET

There you go. Most went out of business.

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The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) estimates that 53 percent of the approximately 80,000 rural gas stations - and 25 percent of the 200,000 stations nationwide - will close by the end of 1998 because of new federal regulations affecting underground storage tanks.

sazerac said:

Deep trouble for gas stations - new environmental regulations | Nation's Business | Find Articles at BNET

There you go. Most went out of business.

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I see you are having difficulty with an EPA “estimate” at the time of the article and reality.

Here are some facts for you:

Exxon Joins Competitors in Moving Away from Gas Station Ownership
There are about 12,000 gas stations with the Exxon sign at the entrance, though the company owns about 2,220 of them. And Exxon plans to sell those over the next few years, Reuters reported.

Exxon Joins Competitors in Moving Away from Gas Station Ownership -- Seeking Alpha

Since 1985, CITGO has sold its various products through independent marketers. Our relationship with these people is really what makes CITGO different from other petroleum companies.
CITGO.com, About CITGO

Still, the state of the market doesn't bode well for anyone trying to exit the gas-retailing business, be they one-store owners or energy giant Exxon Mobil Corp. Last month, the company said it plans to sell its 2,220 stations in the U.S.; other oil companies already have shed most of theirs.Gas Stations Hit Skids - WSJ.com

Welcome to the white-knuckled world of convenience store gas stations -- half of which are mom-and-pop operations and approximately where 80 percent of the country's gas is sold.

Gas companies own less than 5 percent of the country's gas stations. Like everyone else, mom-and-pop gas station owners are struggling with the high prices.
ABC News: Gas Stations Owners Feel the Pump Pain, Too

Gas is too cheap, they need to put stations out of business to drive prices up.

Truth Detector said:

That is not the argument; the argument is that if the Government for the sake of a particular vocal constituency is going to pass onerous and absurd regulations that burden the small business person to comply with regulations supported by suspect science, then they should consider tax incentives to assist those businesses to perform said modifications.

<paragraph removed to shorten the quote>

But you have to ask yourself this question Indy, who ultimately pays for these modifications and who suffers the burden of these regulations the most once they have been paid for by the businesses?

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Answer: Everyone. What, you didn't expect a free lunch did you? That's the basic concept of economics, nothing is free. You want better standards, you pay for it. What I believe you are overlooking is that the politicians were elected by the people and it wasn't a secret that this is a stance of theirs. Therefore, the people have made their choice and is a logical assumption that the people are also will to accept the costs.

Indy said:

Answer: Everyone. What, you didn't expect a free lunch did you? That's the basic concept of economics, nothing is free. You want better standards, you pay for it. What I believe you are overlooking is that the politicians were elected by the people and it wasn't a secret that this is a stance of theirs. Therefore, the people have made their choice and is a logical assumption that the people are also will to accept the costs.

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This is the false assertion: "want better standards". No one wants these standards other than a small lunatic fringe bent on saving the planet at the cost of everything rational.

Who pays the heaviest cost of such ill-thought out legislation? The POOR; the very people Liberals claim to champion. The rich are immune from Governments stupidity.

If you believe that putting the small businessman out of business is a GOOD idea, then you support this useless legislation that will do NOTHING to make the environment and air safer.

It reminds me of the global warming fear mongers; their argument basically is, we cannot absolutely prove our wild-eyed assertions, but do you want to take the chance and DIE?

Yes, I will take my chances with eons of historic evidence that warming is not a bad thing but global cooling is. The last thing I want is to have Earth revert back to a sheet of ice.

::Sigh:: I'll go through this with you one more time:

If the country didn't want better gas mileage then why is detroit in so much trouble? Oh wait, I forgot your typical answer: the democrats.

Indy said:

::Sigh:: I'll go through this with you one more time:

If the country didn't want better gas mileage then why is detroit in so much trouble? Oh wait, I forgot your typical answer: the democrats.

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What does gas mileage have to do with the thread topic?

This isn't about gas mileage, this is about gas pump vapor emissions. :doh

But, if you want to change the topic about better gas mileage and why Detroit is in so much trouble, I will be happy to have that debate in another thread.

MrVicchio said:

Envirowackos 1, hard working people 0.


Mandate could force gas stations out of business - Pasadena Star-News

Small businesses, the little guy out there, has to shut down, has to stop earning a living.

I bet ya many of these places will get bought out by bigger companies... gee, you don't think that someone is looking to make money from this... nah.

This is really all about Mother Gaia right?

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Our federal EPA is heavy handed enough ,add one Kalifornia EPA to the mix and you get this.

Indy said:

Answer: Everyone. What, you didn't expect a free lunch did you? That's the basic concept of economics, nothing is free. You want better standards, you pay for it. What I believe you are overlooking is that the politicians were elected by the people and it wasn't a secret that this is a stance of theirs. Therefore, the people have made their choice and is a logical assumption that the people are also will to accept the costs.

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I basicly agree with your thinking. I Would like to throw the monkey wrench of ,"junk science", into the irrational decision makeing involved in arriving at the need for these retrofits... ,"needed to keep the sky intact".

Indy said:

::Sigh:: I'll go through this with you one more time:

If the country didn't want better gas mileage then why is detroit in so much trouble? Oh wait, I forgot your typical answer: the democrats.

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You're right - it has nothing to do with the fact that it costs Detroit far more to build a car than it does a foreign company. The Unions play NO part in this.