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93-year-old froze to death, owed big utility bill

American said:
What if he hadn't been a WWII vet, would his death be okay? Callous, how about his family? How callous are they? Do you know the family situation? Why aren't you addressing my comments about his children, I guess they let their WWII vet hero dad die, didn't they?
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This is why?....

ludahai said:
In many states, it IS their job. Do we know the family situation of this man? Amazing you can be so callous about a 93-year-old man who was a WWII vet.

BTW, he HAD no children.

link
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American said:
So who was paying his bills?
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I believe he was. Or at least attempting to.

The body was discovered by neighbor George Pauwels Jr., who said Schur had almost $1,100 in unpaid electric bills. Pauwels told the newspaper he saw cash clipped to those bills on the kitchen table on the day he found Schur’s body.
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Vader said:
I hope his family sues that utility company for all they are worth.

Rotten bastards.
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If he has family they shouldn't get 1 red cent. They obviously FAILED in looking in on him and taking care of his electricity issues.
 
talloulou said:
If he has family they shouldn't get 1 red cent. They obviously FAILED in looking in on him and taking care of his electricity issues.
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He doesn't HAVE any family that we know of. That is the point. He has NO kids, his wife has passed away. He was completely on his own!
 
Shewter said:
I believe he was. Or at least attempting to.
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He owed the electric company $1000, something was wrong and he didn't arrange for some sort of assistance. The man had plenty of money, so somewhere planning was lacking; so you can't blame the state entirely or the electric company. The fact that he was a vet is irrelevant; should he have gotten his electricity free then? Let's not pull on heart-strings and sentimentalism to make political points. He had neighbors too, who found him. Where were they before then; they certainly knew his age and lack of a wife in the house.

Of course it's tragic, but let's not go nuts.
 
American said:
He owed the electric company $1000, something was wrong and he didn't arrange for some sort of assistance. The man had plenty of money, so somewhere planning was lacking; so you can't blame the state entirely or the electric company. The fact that he was a vet is irrelevant; should he have gotten his electricity free then? Let's not pull on heart-strings and sentimentalism to make political points. He had neighbors too, who found him. Where were they before then; they certainly knew his age and lack of a wife in the house.

Of course it's tragic, but let's not go nuts.
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I didnt. Just read the quotes in my post you are addressing.
 
I wasn't talking to you specifically.
 
American said:
He owed the electric company $1000, something was wrong and he didn't arrange for some sort of assistance. The man had plenty of money, so somewhere planning was lacking; so you can't blame the state entirely or the electric company. The fact that he was a vet is irrelevant; should he have gotten his electricity free then? Let's not pull on heart-strings and sentimentalism to make political points. He had neighbors too, who found him. Where were they before then; they certainly knew his age and lack of a wife in the house.

Of course it's tragic, but let's not go nuts.
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Well if he's that old there's a pretty decent shot he's suffering from 'ol age dementia. Most 90+ somethings aren't all together mentally. If he had no family you'd hope he'd at least have friends or neighbors that checked in on him. Although sadly, I can see that being harder than it sounds. My grandpop is in his 80's and not all there mentally anymore. He gets quite angry at people and yells at them to mind their damn business. He's one of those hard to help 'ol folks. His attitude has gotten worse with age. He's suspicious of people now that he's demented and I imagine if he had no family he'd drive strangers away. There's no way someone like grandpop would make it easy for neighbors to check in on him.
 
talloulou said:
Well if he's that old there's a pretty decent shot he's suffering from 'ol age dementia. Most 90+ somethings aren't all together mentally. If he had no family you'd hope he'd at least have friends or neighbors that checked in on him. Although sadly, I can see that being harder than it sounds. My grandpop is in his 80's and not all there mentally anymore. He gets quite angry at people and yells at them to mind their damn business. He's one of those hard to help 'ol folks. His attitude has gotten worse with age. He's suspicious of people now that he's demented and I imagine if he had no family he'd drive strangers away. There's no way someone like grandpop would make it easy for neighbors to check in on him.
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Maybe not, but you can't expect outside entities to be 100% responsible. If you did, then you would give them the right to through him in some old folks home against his will, or something else. This could open too many doors.
 
American said:
Maybe not, but you can't expect outside entities to be 100% responsible. If you did, then you would give them the right to through him in some old folks home against his will, or something else. This could open too many doors.
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They should have waited until spring to cut off his power or actually had someone go in and check in on him while they were installing the power limiter device.
 
ludahai said:
They should have waited until spring to cut off his power or actually had someone go in and check in on him while they were installing the power limiter device.
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Seems more than one group of people "shoulda" done something, but they didn't. Looks like they're trying to correct this issue. Bottomline, people who knew him should have checked. Obviously mail had to be falling out of the mailbox.
 
American said:
Seems more than one group of people "shoulda" done something, but they didn't. Looks like they're trying to correct this issue. Bottomline, people who knew him should have checked. Obviously mail had to be falling out of the mailbox.
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But to install the limiter, someone actually had to physically GO TO HIS HOUSE to install it. Why couldn't they have checked if he was actually there and try to ascertain the situation while they had someone physically there.

I have noted how you have moved the goalposts through this discussion. You started by saying how his children/family should have been looking in on him, but once it was shown that he has none, you are moving the onus on others. As the agency who cut off the power and killed the man, the electric utility is more responsible than any person in this man's death.

As for correcting the issue, how can you correct this given the fact that a man is dead due to the negligence of the power company?
 
Because they're job was installing limiters maybe, and they had other houses to get to. I don't, but you're expecting them to act like his family. It's a job and they are a business.
 
American said:
Because they're job was installing limiters maybe, and they had other houses to get to. I don't, but you're expecting them to act like his family. It's a job and they are a business.
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An electric utility is a public trust. They are providing a service and granted a monopoly to provide something that is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to the preservation of human life in the dead cold of winter in Michigan. They MUST be expected to meet a higher standard in such a situation. This is EXACTLY why many states do not allow electric cut offs in the dead of winter. Frankly, I am surprised Michigan is NOT one of those states, especially when a state like NH IS!
 
It is one of those states, but the small utility is not under their control. In a perfect world we'd all act like Jesus, but we're not so don't be too harsh.
 
American said:
It is one of those states, but the small utility is not under their control. In a perfect world we'd all act like Jesus, but we're not so don't be too harsh.
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THey have a responsibility to the citizens. THough I am a Christian, I DO fail to live up to his example, but my failings have not resulted in the death of a person to my knowledge. When you provide a service necessary to maintaining human life AND you have a monopoly on that service, we have a right to hold you to a higher standard.
 
ludahai said:
An electric utility is a public trust. They are providing a service and granted a monopoly to provide something that is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to the preservation of human life in the dead cold of winter in Michigan. They MUST be expected to meet a higher standard in such a situation. This is EXACTLY why many states do not allow electric cut offs in the dead of winter. Frankly, I am surprised Michigan is NOT one of those states, especially when a state like NH IS!
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This seems like a familiar argument. Healthcare, anyone?

This instance, as well as healthcare in general, fall back to the question:

Do people have the right to the basic necessities needed for life?
 
Middleground said:
This seems like a familiar argument. Healthcare, anyone?

This instance, as well as healthcare in general, fall back to the question:

Do people have the right to the basic necessities needed for life?
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In a modern, developed society, sure they do. Before you say American's don't have health care, that is a crock. Public hospitals are required to take indigent cases. If, as a society, we can't take care of our most vulnerable, than we really HAVE failed. This man died because his electricity was cut off. That is a crime - if not legally, than definately morally.
 
ludahai said:
Does it matter? It is winter, he is old, under no circumstances should the company shut off his power.
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I'm curious, whether it was a private company or a public one.
 
ludahai said:
In a modern, developed society, sure they do. Before you say American's don't have health care, that is a crock. Public hospitals are required to take indigent cases. If, as a society, we can't take care of our most vulnerable, than we really HAVE failed. This man died because his electricity was cut off. That is a crime - if not legally, than definately morally.
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I agree with most of that. Like you, I believe that we should take care of our own, especially our most vulnerable. But a lot falls through the cracks, including many the many who don't have the medical care they need.
 
MrVicchio said:
I'm curious, whether it was a private company or a public one.
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As best I can tell from what I am reading it is public, but I am not 100% sure.

Regardless, as it is a government granted monopoly, whether public of private, considering the service it provides, it should be held to a higher standard.
 
MrVicchio said:
I'm curious, whether it was a private company or a public one.
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Does it matter?

Was this man entitled to get the heat that he needed for survival despite not paying his bills? It's either a yes or a no, depending on who you view this matter of morality.
 
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