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House Passes 2009 SCHIP Bill

aps said:
I do see your point. I would like to read the rationale for this tax. I think it's easier for them to tax an item that isn't a necessity than one that is (food). I dunno.
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I think it is easier for them to tax a commodity unavailable through other means. Say, gasoline?

But for that matter, I find it wrong that they are forcing the support of the program no matter what it is. Like I said before, if a company wanted to add on to the costs of their product in order to donate the excess to, say, SCHIP.. I would be all for that. And if I agree with what their money is being donated to I will continue to buy the product.
 
aps said:
I don't have a problem with this. I have to pay higher health insurance premiums because of smokers. And, yes, I have to pay higher premiums for obesity. I would support a higher tax on food as well. Those who eat more should pay more.

missypea, I have to admit, I am such a cigarette hater that I don't care and, in fact, like it when cigarette smokers are punished by paying more for their disgusting habit. I'm sorry, but that's how it is for me.
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How about we tax the people who have children, without thinking about the consequences of having to support them with health care.

I have to pay more for these people, lets tax the hell out of them.
 
Shewter said:
Support me with evidence that my smoking negatively impacts you.

Explain to me what is "right" about denying a legal practice on ones property.

Also, explain to me what the benefit is when people will end up buying their cigarettes on the reservations and contribute ZERO taxes to the SCHIP program, and any other taxes for state, and federal purposes.

Push a person long enough and they'll push back. Think about it.
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We're not going to see eye to eye on this issue of smoking. I think it's a disgusting habit. I hate the smell of it. I choose to NOT go to places that allow smoking. I resent the number of cigarette butts outside my office building and outside every entrance/exit of the subway system (since smoking isn't allowed in any subway station), and in my own neighborhood. When I do a trash pick-up in my neighborhood, the majority of that trash is cigarette butts. That pisses me off. I hate how the majority of smokers seem to think that the earth is their ashtray. I can't remember the last time I saw someone who was entering the subway system put out their butt and put it in the trash. Every one of them just throws it on the ground. I hate litterers, and I feel that way about someone who throws any sort of trash on the ground.

It's very interesting that you think everyone is going to start buying cigarettes through Indian reservations. Do they have a website where one can order them? If they do, I suspect that if I order a pack from an Indian reservation in Arizona, I'm going to have to pay Virginia taxes since I live in Virginia.
 
Shewter said:
I think it is easier for them to tax a commodity unavailable through other means. Say, gasoline?

But for that matter, I find it wrong that they are forcing the support of the program no matter what it is. Like I said before, if a company wanted to add on to the costs of their product in order to donate the excess to, say, SCHIP.. I would be all for that. And if I agree with what their money is being donated to I will continue to buy the product.
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I took Constitutional law a looooong time ago, but if my memory serves me correctly, the tax has to have some sort of relevance to the purpose of the tax. For example, if we need to build roads, it's appropriate to tax gasoline for that expense. Why choosing the habit of smoking for health care--I dunno. Was it you that suggested over-the-counter medication? I would support a tax on that.
 
Shewter said:
What makes you think I'm charging you to do something against your will? Your choice is there all along. You, just as I, make a choice to do these things each day. The mere fact that you decide to live in that area, or work farther away from where you live does not dictate how you commute, does it?
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Are you serious? Then don't smoke! Problem solved.
 
aps said:
We're not going to see eye to eye on this issue of smoking. I think it's a disgusting habit. I hate the smell of it. I choose to NOT go to places that allow smoking. I resent the number of cigarette butts outside my office building and outside every entrance/exit of the subway system (since smoking isn't allowed in any subway station), and in my own neighborhood. When I do a trash pick-up in my neighborhood, the majority of that trash is cigarette butts. That pisses me off. I hate how the majority of smokers seem to think that the earth is their ashtray. I can't remember the last time I saw someone who was entering the subway system put out their butt and put it in the trash. Every one of them just throws it on the ground. I hate litterers, and I feel that way about someone who throws any sort of trash on the ground.
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I could care less how you feel about smokers. I dislike the majority of women, doesnt mean there aren't a few that don't meet me "**** you" criteria. And I definitely wouldnt be okay with straight up taxing them because I dislike them either.

It's very interesting that you think everyone is going to start buying cigarettes through Indian reservations. Do they have a website where one can order them? If they do, I suspect that if I order a pack from an Indian reservation in Arizona, I'm going to have to pay Virginia taxes since I live in Virginia.
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I didnt say everyone, but definitely gives anyone with access to the reservations a reason to start buying there.

Think about this for a sec. Right across the street I can buy a carton of Marlobor Light 100's. The carton costs roughly $50.00. Now with this tax going into place it's going to be what 60 cents more per pack? (Some have been saying it may go up over a dollar per pack) there are 10 packs in a carton, that's 6 bucks more.

On the indian reservation about 20 minutes away, I can buy that same carton for $24.99. No taxes, no bull****.

Now, to justify the gas, I could buy two cartons for the price of one (walking) across the street.

NONE of the money I just spent is going back into state, or federal finances.
 
aps said:
I took Constitutional law a looooong time ago, but if my memory serves me correctly, the tax has to have some sort of relevance to the purpose of the tax. For example, if we need to build roads, it's appropriate to tax gasoline for that expense. Why choosing the habit of smoking for health care--I dunno. Was it you that suggested over-the-counter medication? I would support a tax on that.
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Obesity consumes more health care dollars now than smoking does. In CA I heard the tab is 7.7 billion.
 
aps said:
I took Constitutional law a looooong time ago, but if my memory serves me correctly, the tax has to have some sort of relevance to the purpose of the tax. For example, if we need to build roads, it's appropriate to tax gasoline for that expense. Why choosing the habit of smoking for health care--I dunno. Was it you that suggested over-the-counter medication? I would support a tax on that.
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If that's true then they could link ANYTHING to health care. Especially gasoline.
 
Shewter said:
Are YOU serious? Then don't drive, problem solved.
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Why can't I drive? My driving leads to increased productivity within my work environment and helps me provide for an income as well as potentially care for my children and helps give me the ability to bring home in a timely manner. What does smoking do?

If nobody drove (or used any means of fast transportation) then this world would go back to the agricultural era. We couldn't provide crops to people across the world, we couldn't provide goods for people thirty minutes away. Detroit would be worthless (not like it's doing so well right now anyway...).

If nobody smoked, then big whoop. Tobacco companies are gone. So what? They provide a "good" for a subset of people that is not important in anything except for perhaps temporary relief and maybe some socialization.

EDIT: Oh, and btw, I was accused of having some of the worst logic on this board when this guy is equating the value of driving and smoking. :roll:
 
Smoke[MaxX] said:
Why can't I drive? My driving leads to increased productivity within my work environment and helps me provide for an income as well as potentially care for my children and helps give me the ability to bring home in a timely manner. What does smoking do?

If nobody drove (or used any means of fast transportation) then this world would go back to the agricultural era. We couldn't provide crops to people across the world, we couldn't provide goods for people thirty minutes away. Detroit would be worthless (not like it's doing so well right now anyway...).

If nobody smoked, then big whoop. Tobacco companies are gone. So what? They provide a "good" for a subset of people that is not important in anything except for perhaps temporary relief and maybe some socialization.

EDIT: Oh, and btw, I was accused of having some of the worst logic on this board when this guy is equating the value of driving and smoking. :roll:
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Go back through this topic and see the detrimental properties of driving vs smoking.

IF you REALLY want to get into it I'm sure we could accomodate you :roll:

Point being, you can drive, I can smoke. We both make those choices, you seem to think that your choice is more important.
 
aps said:
We're not going to see eye to eye on this issue of smoking. I think it's a disgusting habit. I hate the smell of it. I choose to NOT go to places that allow smoking.
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No, you choose to enable government to infringe upon property rights and forbid private property owners from being able to choose for themselves whether or not they want to allow smoking on their property. If you did as you claim, there would be no problem. But you definitely do not, you support the expansion of government over the rights of the individual so that you don't have to make the choice of not going places that allow smoking. You prevent the choice of allowing smoking.
 
Smoke[MaxX] said:
What rational thinking/logic? Doesn't mean smoking isn't still a big problem.
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They are taxing something that is popular to demonize. Yet being a fat ass is moving to the arena of civil right/something you can't control.

Ever hear about people getting angry because an airline makes them buy two seats. I think some have sued over it to. Fat people are more numerous, have more varied health problems which most likely cost more money to everyone who isn't.

Why tax smoking when fat people cost more money to take care of?

Why tax smoking when parents who have children they can't support costs the rest of us more money?

This is retarded and SCHIP is a gateway bill to Nationalized Health care.
 
aps said:
Do you think all these people making the laws are uncalm, irrational, and illogical adults?
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No, I do not consider them adults. I consider them whining babies unable to do anything for themselves or use proper consumer habits to change markets. I consider them ignorant, foolish individuals whom would rather enable the government against the rights of the individual than get off their asses and do something positive about the problem without the restriction of choice. Idiots who don't understand the concepts of responsibility and consequence of freedom and thus would rather squash the freedom of the people for their own tyranny. They don't want to experience x, so they get the government involved even though it's a property issue. They stomp on private property rights because of the righteous indignation towards something they have demonized and in their emotional temper tantrum they assault the basis of freedom and liberty. Fools that can't see their attacks hampers the growth of liberty and nothing more.

That's all it is. People who can't accept consequence or the choices of others. Everything must be bleached to be their way, they are so right about something that they feel the need and the divinely inspired right to infringe upon other people's rights to set the system in the light they feel it should bathe in. Whitewash the whole thing and remove choice and responsibility. As I said, these fools should be set aside and their emotional tirades allowed nowhere near the legislative process. We don't need emotional children trying to make laws, we need rational thought and debate. Children should stand in the corners and let the adults handle the problems.
 
Shewter said:
Think about this for a sec. Right across the street I can buy a carton of Marlobor Light 100's. The carton costs roughly $50.00. Now with this tax going into place it's going to be what 60 cents more per pack? (Some have been saying it may go up over a dollar per pack) there are 10 packs in a carton, that's 6 bucks more.

On the indian reservation about 20 minutes away, I can buy that same carton for $24.99. No taxes, no bull****.

Now, to justify the gas, I could buy two cartons for the price of one (walking) across the street.

NONE of the money I just spent is going back into state, or federal finances.
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I would guess that the majority of smokers do not live within driving distance of an Indian reservation. So they will be paying for the health care.

I just cannot fathom allowing some object (nicotine) to have that much of a control on me. I really can't. It bewilders me.
 
aps said:
I just cannot fathom allowing some object (nicotine) to have that much of a control on me. I really can't. It bewilders me.
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I don't know what it is but I love the stuff.
 
winston53660 said:
Obesity consumes more health care dollars now than smoking does. In CA I heard the tab is 7.7 billion.
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Honestly, winston, I would support a higher tax on food to pay for this bill. The more food you eat, the more you pay in taxes.
 
Shewter said:
If that's true then they could link ANYTHING to health care. Especially gasoline.
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How so? I don't see a relationship.
 
aps said:
Honestly, winston, I would support a higher tax on food to pay for this bill. The more food you eat, the more you pay in taxes.
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Like fruits and vegetables? I can see a tax on things like transgendered fats.
 
Smoke[MaxX] said:
What rational thinking/logic? Doesn't mean smoking isn't still a big problem.
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It's stunning to me that smokers would call nonsmokers irrational/illogical. Umm, I'm not the one with an addiction to a substance that is slowly killing me. :doh
 
aps said:
It's stunning to me that smokers would call nonsmokers irrational/illogical. Umm, I'm not the one with an addiction to a substance that is slowly killing me. :doh
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Illogical comes in statements of this variety. No one is saying people shouldn't smoke. They shouldn't, it's not good for you. That's a misrepresentation of the argument to say that is the reason for the irrational claim. The irrational claim comes in not from saying people shouldn't smoke but rather that you'd impose government tyranny to impose your whim upon the public and infringe upon property rights because you feel your righteous indignation validates it.
 
aps said:
It's stunning to me that smokers would call nonsmokers irrational/illogical. Umm, I'm not the one with an addiction to a substance that is slowly killing me. :doh
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Seeing how living is slowly killing me, I don't see what smoking is doing that we don't already naturally do :lol:
 
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