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Democrats Launch Petition Against Rush Limbaugh

ok, ok, ok,... Uncle! the next I don't document everything, I'll know that all the ad hominems and non-arguments directed at me are perfectly legitimate. thanks for the explanation and clarifications.

your own definition

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the source making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.

You did not present a "factual claim", and while I did reference the belief of the source I did not do that RATHER than addressing the substance but did it in conjunction with. Your own use of the term doesn't fit with your own definition. What IS rather funny though, is you haven't actually addressed anything I spoke about in regards to Rush's statements being Hyperbole or being given completely out of context and thus can not be said to be universally "his beliefs", rather choosing to focus your counter on whether or not I used an "ad hom".
 
your own definition

You did not present a "factual claim", and while I did reference the belief of the source I did not do that RATHER than addressing the substance but did it in conjunction with. Your own use of the term doesn't fit with your own definition. What IS rather funny though, is you haven't actually addressed anything I spoke about in regards to Rush's statements being Hyperbole or being given completely out of context and thus can not be said to be universally "his beliefs", rather choosing to focus your counter on whether or not I used an "ad hom".

the quotes are his. except for one. end of debate.

oh, oh, oh, except for the much lengthier post I made, which is documented, and that you haven't addressed at all, not even once.

all of this about me and what I do, when all the while, we agree about Rush. How odd.

You must really have it out for me, eh? (you won't mind at all then, if I speculate about your motivations, since it seems to be the crux of the matter here at good ol' DP, hmm?)
 
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the quotes are his. except for one. end of debate.

I never denied those were LIKELY his quotes (though without any kind of actual documentation its hard to know for sure. However, I could imagine a situation in which he'd say all of them).

Having a quote from someone does not = that being their view. You insinuated, and later flat out said, those were his BELIEFS.

I can say "Hitler is a good man. You know? I mean, he did art. He helped his people out. He wanted the best for his country. I mean, that makes him a good man right? We can't just judge a man on a few single acts, we have to look at his whole life. No man is just "evil", even if he's responsible for the genocide of a people and starting a major war. :roll:".

Now, I'm being obviously sarcastic. I'm using hyperbole, intentional exaggeration, to make a point (in this case it'd be people that try to always find the "good in people" sometimes miss the obvious that some people are just too bad to try and justify them as being "good"). However, someone could then go and quote me and say that see, zyphlin thinks hitler is a good man. Does the fact that they are able to take that quote PROVE somehow FACTUALLY that I actually BELIEVE that Hitler is a good man?

No.

And neither do your single quotes without context PROVE those are Rush's beliefs. At the very most, and even then without some kind of link to prove it its still based on good faith, it proves he SAID them.

oh, oh, oh, except for the much lengthier post I made, which is documented, and that you haven't addressed at all, not even once.

I'll head back in the thread and look. Frankly I didn't see any post you made quoting mine besides the one I responded to...the one that didn't actually deal with any of my points save for saying "But, he's a blow hard and a propogandist!" and "You're using Ad Homs"

all of this about me and what I do, when all the while, we agree about Rush. How odd.

Actually we don't. We agree that he can be a blow hard that uses hyperbole and spreads propoganda. We disagree with the actual content of your claims...that those quotes of his are his beliefs.
 
Hey Nifty, I went back through the thread. Nope, I've seen you address no where that the quotes you quoted had no source, had no context, and in no way shape or form prove that these are his beliefs. Sorry, I looked...the most I've seen you say in regards to that is that he speaks propoganda, he tells mistruths, and that those are his words. None of these things counter that:

1. You have no context with those quotes.
2. You provide no proof that those are his actual beliefs and not part of a hyperbolic statement or some other form of parody.
 
It's fair, that's how you see it. Here's my take.

I don't know the man, but he is very consistent, no matter who's in office, whether or not he cares is up for debate as no one is privvy to his private thoughts. Rush doesn't ever advocate for big government, and gives us the information we need plus his analysis, so either way, I think he does an overall good whether we agree with him or not.

I think that his giving a voice to the conseratives not represented by the GOP is a good thing. I don't like Rush for other reasons more than I don't like his policies.

I think does a serious disservice to the country with some of his rhetoric. HE is naturally a divider of people, not a uniter.

His venom towards the other side is overkill, IMO. I'm not saying that he is wrong to want Obama to fail (and by now, everyone knows exactly waht he meant by that).

I can agree with the concept of supporting the cvountry but not the mission that the leadsers of teh country want ot engage in.

In fact, it is very similar to the concept of "supporting the troops, but not the mission".

Where Rush becomes a hypocrite is that he has made statements like: "I told them what I think is the sort of phony-baloney, plastic-banana, good-time rock 'n' roller of some members of the American left saying they support the troops but they don't support their mission"

The fact is that with the left in charge, their mission is indeed the coutnry's mission.

So Rush is now engaging in the same thing, in a way, by trying to say that he wants Obama's Policies to fail, not Obama himself.

Where I can se the difference here, I can also see the difference in the other argument made.

Rush apparently does not see how his current position parralels that of the left with regard to supporting the troops.

I was listening to his show that day, and saw the Hannity interview, his stated position is he wants the U.S. to succeed, and Obama to fail in the implementation of more socialism since it fails. He stated as well that he could support a free-market, conservative Obama administration. I am paraphrasing BTW.

I saw the inteview as well, and my initial thought was that this is akin to supporting the troops, but not the mission. I have absolutely no problem with that mentality.

My problem is based on Rush's hypocrisy. If it was not OK then, for the opposition to take a similar stance, it should not be OK for him to do so now.

That is where he is inconsistent.

HE's very consistently anti-socialism, and I respect that.

He's not consistinet in his self-application of his ideologies though. He excuses the behavior when he is engaging in it, while fervently denouncing the behavior in others.


My hourly job is at a broadcasting company, one of the stations carries Rush, his numbers are always increasing, no matter who is in office, so I have to say from experience that your point is a good take, but factually incorrect.

I'm not saying he has lost ratings, or that they have not increased, I'm saying that he will receive a boost in ratings when he has more material.

Didn't his ratings increase more when he had Obama to go after in 2008? (Although in general an election year might increase ratings in it's own right)

I'm saying that he'll have even bigger ratings boosts with Obama in office than he would with McCAin in office because it is likely that more people will become unhappy with liberal policies while Obama is in office. And that's Rush's bread and butter.

It's addimittedly purely speculation on my part that his ratings will get a bigger boost with Obama than they would have with McCain. I can tell you one thing, though, there is little doubt that Rush's ratings will never decrease with a Dem in office.
 
I think that his giving a voice to the conseratives not represented by the GOP is a good thing. I don't like Rush for other reasons more than I don't like his policies.

I think does a serious disservice to the country with some of his rhetoric. HE is naturally a divider of people, not a uniter.

His venom towards the other side is overkill, IMO. I'm not saying that he is wrong to want Obama to fail (and by now, everyone knows exactly waht he meant by that).
Well put. He sews the seeds of division and uses his position as an influential voice to breed hatred amongst his more gullible listeners. Hardly what this country needs right now.
 
Well put. He sews the seeds of division and uses his position as an influential voice to breed hatred amongst his more gullible listeners. Hardly what this country needs right now.

I don't think he "breeds hate", nor do I think very many of his listeners are "gullible" (actually they are quite informed, overall).

What I think he does is foster the hate already present in some of his listeners.

In truth, what he mostly does is give voice to a portion of the population. A large portion, given his ratings.

Portions of this population truly hate the concepts and ideologies of the left.


He's just giving voice to that. That is in some ways a service to them, but he does it in a manner that kindles the fires of hatred/distaste, instead of simply giving voice to them.

And there are other extremely good things that he does using his influence. He's one of the most charitable members of the media-world. The stuff he does for charity is downright honorable. The letter he posted on e-bay going towards the families of fallen soldiers, the lymphoma charities, etc.

That's the bitch about it for me. If it weren't for some of his tactics and virulence, I would actually quite liike the guy.
 
I'd actually like to play a round of golf with him. Only because he could get me onto some nice golf courses. Otherwise Tuckers assesment of Rush I pretty much agree with.
 
I'd post my thoughts on Rush but I'll mostly just got with "What Tucker Said".

I see him as entertainer first personally, political activist second. And I think, though he wouldn't admit it, he does too. Its actually why, if I'm bored or struck by a certain fancy, I don't have issues listening to his show (and find myself agreeing with him at times and wanting to yell at my radio "you idiot" at others) where as people like hannity bore the **** out of me. Hannity is a political pundit that blathers on about issues. Rush is an entertainer that talks about Politics.
 
I don't think he "breeds hate", nor do I think very many of his listeners are "gullible" (actually they are quite informed, overall).
I have had the misfortune of going to school with some kids whose parents subjected them to Limbaugh at a young age. Those were the gullible I was referring to.
 
I have had the misfortune of going to school with some kids whose parents subjected them to Limbaugh at a young age. Those were the gullible I was referring to.

I don't know. Was it Rush or the parents that did that?

I'd say it was the parents more than anything else. Blaming Rush for that is like blaiming video games for violence. The parents hold the responsibility.
 
I see him as entertainer first personally, political activist second. And I think, though he wouldn't admit it, he does too. Its actually why, if I'm bored or struck by a certain fancy, I don't have issues listening to his show (and find myself agreeing with him at times and wanting to yell at my radio "you idiot" at others) where as people like hannity bore the **** out of me. Hannity is a political pundit that blathers on about issues. Rush is an entertainer that talks about Politics.

Yeah, Hannity is boring as hell. At least Rush's somewhat irritating nature can be entertaining.

And I give him all the props in the world for introducing me to the term "feminazi". That one does crack me up.
 
I don't know. Was it Rush or the parents that did that?

I'd say it was the parents more than anything else. Blaming Rush for that is like blaiming video games for violence. The parents hold the responsibility.
I would say that it was both. Subjecting children to abrasive rhetoric at a young age is a poor choice.
 
Hey Nifty, I went back through the thread. Nope, I've seen you address no where that the quotes you quoted had no source, had no context, and in no way shape or form prove that these are his beliefs. Sorry, I looked...the most I've seen you say in regards to that is that he speaks propoganda, he tells mistruths, and that those are his words. None of these things counter that:

1. You have no context with those quotes.
2. You provide no proof that those are his actual beliefs and not part of a hyperbolic statement or some other form of parody.

ok, whatever you say. even if he did say those things, he didn't believe what he said. not unless I can prove it.

btw, are you aware that you used a couple of words lifted from a definition for "ad hominem" to discredit the way I presented my argument, which wasn't ad hominem at all? Just making sure. I chose to focus on whether or not you made ad hominems, because, uh, you did. it's funny how some will focus on the reaction rather than the impetus, whenever it suits them.
 
Democrats Launch Petition Against Rush Limbaugh
Tuesday, January 27, 2009
By Melanie Hunter-Omar


(CNSNews.com) – The Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee has launched an online petition for readers to express their outrage at conservative talk show host Rush Limbaugh for saying last week that he wanted President Barack Obama to fail.
http://cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=42616


On the heels of Obama’s ill advised Limbaugh comments, the DNC is now making the same mistake. Even starting a petition, sure wish I could recall the name of the poster who bravely predicted that Obama’s POTUS victory would spell the end for Limbaugh. Because clearly his show is about to experience an audience swell and even more exposure than usual, via Obama and the DNC. Jeez talking about playing into Limbaugh’s hands.:doh

Republicans need to quit whining, and instead, launch an online petition against Michael Moore, then call it even. :mrgreen:
 
When did I argue Limbaugh ignores context?

And what context am I ignoring? Did I illustrate what was meant by this in any direction? Did I say that Obama's failure would lead to the nation's failure? Did I impugn Rush for saying this?

No. I made a statemnt of fact.

You invented the idea that I took him out of context in order to try and defend him.

Did he or did he not say: "Why would I want that to succeed? I don't believe in that. I know that's not how this country is going to be great in the future; it's not what made this country great. So I shamelessly say, "No! I want him to fail.""

If those are Rush's exact words, and I make no claims about what he means by them, there is no context for me to consider.

Does he want Obama to fail?

Yes, he has admitted this quite clearly.

Did I state what that means?

Absolutely not. So your complaint about me taking things out of context clearly ignore the context of my statements. and illustrates that you are more interested in defending than discussing.

So please, don't invent arguments for me which I have not made.

The comment you made that I replied to was this:
“Rush doesn't give a **** about what's best for the country, he cares only about what's best for Rush. I'd lay odds that he secretly in his heart of hearts was ROOTING for Obama to win the election.

And now he not so secretly wants Obama to fail.

Except he did not literally want Obama “to fail” and addressing the context in which he offered those comments is crucial to discussing what Rush did mean. I fail to see any argument you invented here that makes sense, aside from just arguing for arguments sake. Add to this that your subsequent comments in this thread reflect that you know what Rush did mean. Which was not what you chose to state before. Despite your claim that what you made was a "statement of fact".:roll:

Thanks for making up another claim for me. I have never once in my entire life called Rush listeners "stupid" or "uneducated".
I did not say you did. Others in this thread and every one I have ever read about Limbaugh do. You certainly were not speaking in context to what Limbaugh really did say when you said “And now he not so secretly wants Obama to fail”. I could care less if you don’t want comments like that noticed and commented on. Ditto if you don’t want to hear about how you blithely skipped over what Rush did say and what the context of those comments really were.
;)

I don't mean "disenfranchised" as a negative term.

Now, perhaps "disenfranchised" was not the right word. Perhaps "Pissed off at the government because they are not having their voices heard" would be a better one. Oh... wait... That is basically what the word actually means! :doh

Although the term is technically relating to the right to vote, it is often used colloquially to illustrate a group of people who feel that they are not being represented by government, or feel "voiceless".

With liberals in office, this would most definitely include those who are Rush Limbaugh fans. In essense they turn to him as the "voice" of the people.

That is what I meant by disenfranchised.

If you have demographical data to refute my claim, please feel free to actually cite it instead of mention that it exists.

The comment you made was this:
“This isn't because he wants what's best for the country, it's because the worse Obama does, the better his ratings will be. The more unhappy the people of the country are with "liberals" the more his ratings will increase.

The more pain and suffering they endure, the better for him.

And for the last 8 years gooftards like Oberman were hoping for the same ****. It was a boon to them for Bush's policies to fail. They don't really care that the country is in dissarray, they only need to pretend to care in order to sell advertising and increase ratings.
Like it or not, these people exist solely because they say the things that the disenfranchised want to hear.

The more disenfrachised the people in their target demographic are, the better they do.”
Sorry my comments interrupted your speculation, I did call it that and I do note it is that. I stand behind my comment.

* You may now return to complaining that I am defending Limbaugh. When in fact nothing here needs defense, from me or anyone else. Good try, no cigar though.:shock:


I love how everyone who disagrees with you is quickly labeled by you to be dumb and/or have thoughtless or dumb ideas. If all you are going to do is demean those who's opinions differ from your OP....why even start the thread?
Pay closer attention next time, I said trying to label people who don't agee with you or who listen to talk radio as "brainwashed" etc, etc is dumb. In fact it is real dumb. And of course the rest of your argument is specious, go figure.
 
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Sorry my comments interrupted your speculation, I did call it that and I do note it is that. I stand behind my comment.

Stand behind it all you want, it won't change the fact that you are obviously ignorant of what "disenfranchised" actually means.

To compare it to "stupid" or "uneducated" is clear evidence of that ignorance.
 
Stand behind it all you want, it won't change the fact that you are obviously ignorant of what "disenfranchised" actually means.

To compare it to "stupid" or "uneducated" is clear evidence of that ignorance.
If that is all you have left, sure I don't know what disenfranchised means anymore than I knew you were just speculating. Unless you have found some demographic data that supports your speculation. Oh yeah, you really got me there. And you say there is nothing stupid going on here.:2wave:
 
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If that is all you have left, sure I don't know what disenfranchised means anymore than I knew you were just speculating. Unless you have found some demographic data that supports your speculation. Oh yeah, you really got me there.:2wave:

Thus illustrating that you are arguing from the position of ignorance.

I never claimed that I wasn't speculating. I even said "MY TAKE ON IT"

YOU are the one who actually made the claim that the demographic data can disprove what I'm saying.

Yet MYSTERIOUSLY this demographic data cannot be evidenced in any of your posts.

Can you actually show this or were you simply making sure to discredit anyone who might not have nice things to say about His Holiness?



Seriously, until you can actually comprehend my post, don't bother commenting on it.

By arguing form your position of ignorance, you only support the idea that Limbaugh's fans are "insert claim here".
 
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Thus illustrating that you are arguing from the position of ignorance.

I never claimed that I wasn't speculating. I even said "MY TAKE ON IT"

YOU are the one who actually made the claim that the demographic data can disprove what I'm saying.

Yet MYSTERIOUSLY this demographic data cannot be evidenced in any of your posts.

Can you actually show this or were you simply making sure to discredit anyone who might not have nice things to say about His Holiness?

Seriously, until you can actually comprehend my post, don't bother commenting on it.

By arguing form your position of ignorance, you only support the idea that Limbaugh's fans are "insert claim here".
So you want to argue what? The meaning of “your take” versus speculation? OK, you first. Chuckle.

Demographic data does argue that Limbaugh’s audience is well informed, far from stupid and on average highly educated. But then I see you already noted pretty much the same thing. But if you want to argue that his audience feels disenfranchised, go right ahead and quote your sources and I’ll play along with you, since you insist on arguing about it.

You might want to look back at my posting history on Limbaugh, before you leap to any dumb assumptions. Better yet, why not PM Aquapub and ask him if I view Limbaugh as his Holiness? Besides I think the whole calling Limbaugh his holiness is as dumb as calling Obama the Messiah. But then there are those who gleefully indulge in those dumb clichés when trying to argue with others. Congrats on joining that elite club.
 
Demographic data does argue that Limbaugh’s audience is well informed, far from stupid and on average highly educated. But then I see you already noted pretty much the same thing. But if you want to argue that his audience feels disenfranchised, go right ahead and quote your sources and I’ll play along with you, since you insist on arguing about it.

Wait a minute. You are the one that said:

...demographics long ago destroyed the claim that Limbaugh’s audience is disenfranchised...

YOU are the one who made the claim that evidence proves that they are not disenfranchised, Chief, not me.

My comment was speculative, and I never pretended otherwise.

You are the one making the claim which you have also implied that you could cite demographic evidence to support this claim.

As the saying goes: put up or shut up.
 
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Wait a minute. You are the one that said:

YOU are the one who made the claim that evidence proves that tehy are not disenfranchised, Chief, not me.

My commetn was speculative, and I never pretended otherwise.

You are the one making the claim which you have also implied that you could cite demographic evidence to support this claim.

As the saying goes: put up or shut up.
First off, I was joking when I said you first. And that was offered in reply to having an argument about the differences between “your take” and speculation. Please do try to keep up while you are claiming I can’t keep up. MmmK?


The comment of mine that has you all a twitter, now again, is:
Not to deny you your speculation, but demographics long ago destroyed the claim that Limbaugh’s audience is disenfranchised, stupid, uneducated and insert claim here.
One more time, if you really insist on arguing that Limbaugh’s audience does feel disenfranchised, then start listing your sources and making your argument. Be sure to include how that feeling of disenfranchisement existed as you say it does, through all the years he has been on air, including when his party was in power. You’ll be hard pressed to apply your analogy with regard to a great many years since he came on air. This is your argument that you claimed I tried to invent, so have at it if you must simply insist on having this argument.


Or you could come up for air too. Before you start cherry picking my comments and editing them to fit this growing more pathetic by the second argument of yours, ya know that I invented? Chuckle.
 
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