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Obama to Let States Restrict Emissions Standards

ludahai said:
Just be thankful you aren't in Singapore where you are not allowed to have a car older than three years old on the road.
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Really:confused::shock: I'm really not surprised but that cuts off a lot of history
 
obvious Child said:
Then that increases incentives to create mass transit, something we really, really, really need.

People seem to have this odd notion that really poor people are buying cars. Where does that notion come from? :confused:

And you ignore the flip side. The less we innovate, the further our position in the world economy slips. Who's going to get dumped on even more when that piper comes to collect his money? Those already in a ****ty position.
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American automotive innovation is at a low ebb right now. Here in Taiwan, American cars are on the market, but the Japanese makers hold a DOMINANT position here. Nearly every car on the road here is a Toyota, Honda, or Nissan. I even see European makes more often than American counterparts. It isn't that Taiwanese don't like the US, rather Taiwan is one of the most pro-US countries in Asia. However, they don't see US cars as meeting ther needs due largely to fuel efficiency.
 
MrVicchio said:
I didn't say that. You're cute though when you try to be witty.

I can be for states rights and disagree with what a state does now can't I?
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But you seem to be criticizing Obama's allowing states to have the right to strengthen standards, NOT the actual state actions.
 
MrVicchio said:
And is that feasible in the USA? Is the cost a point that wouldn't impact people? Are these cars the same size as US Cars?
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US cars are too big. That is part of the problem Detroit is having. People don't want big gas guzzlers. They want more fuel efficient models. Once the economic recession is over, the price of gasoline will return to the levels we saw last summer. Most people won't want SUVs anymore, they will want mid-sized models. How many Americans are driving Japanese cars these days? Ever think as to why?
 
ludahai said:
But you seem to be criticizing Obama's allowing states to have the right to strengthen standards, NOT the actual state actions.
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In this case the two are rather close. Letting Cali decide this, hurts us all.
As stated in other places, it's cheaper to make cars the same, not make "Cali cars".
 
Shewter said:
That doesnt stop me from feeling bad for people that can't afford to get another car.
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Maybe you should look at the real reason those people can't afford cars in the first place.

Whining about those who can't afford them independent of the slight additional costs for emissions is rather moot when they can't afford it before the emissions standards.

I am ignoring nothing. I simply stated that I "Can't imagine how much that would suck" for them.
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Well, what is the alternative? Give every poor person $20,000 to go buy a car?
 
MrVicchio said:
And is that feasible in the USA? Is the cost a point that wouldn't impact people? Are these cars the same size as US Cars?
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Nice fallacy of raising the bar. No longer are you asking about the efficiency. Why am I not surprised? Yes, their cars are smaller, but they are also more efficient.
 
ludahai said:
American automotive innovation is at a low ebb right now. Here in Taiwan, American cars are on the market, but the Japanese makers hold a DOMINANT position here. Nearly every car on the road here is a Toyota, Honda, or Nissan. I even see European makes more often than American counterparts. It isn't that Taiwanese don't like the US, rather Taiwan is one of the most pro-US countries in Asia. However, they don't see US cars as meeting ther needs due largely to fuel efficiency.
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Pretty much. The serious lack of any CAFE increases coupled with low gas taxes has effectively allowed American car manufacturers to stagnate. Low quality, poor efficiency, old technology, it's no wonder that the Japanese are KATNs.
 
obvious Child said:
Nice fallacy of raising the bar. No longer are you asking about the efficiency. Why am I not surprised? Yes, their cars are smaller, but they are also more efficient.
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Whose raising the bar?

IF those cars were so great, why aren't hey being sold over here all ready? There is a reason, an it has everything to do with reality and that trumps your fantasy about 50 MPG cars on US Roads.
 
jallman said:
Great. So now, Detroit most likely won't be able to sell it's cars in California. Way to stimulate that economy, Obama. Dumbass.
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Where you for the Federal government's bailout of the Big 3?
 
MrVicchio said:
Whose raising the bar?
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Let's see. You. You are no longer talking about efficiency which is a proven fact in Europe and Japan. You're talking about something entirely new. I suppose that's not raising the bar, it's changing the subject. But given your behavior here, it's not surprising.

If those cars were so great, why aren't hey being sold over here all ready?
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Clearly you don't get out much. Ever hear of a Smart Car?

There is a reason, an it has everything to do with reality and that trumps your fantasy about 50 MPG cars on US Roads.
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Of course there is a reason. Moron Americans have too much huge cars they don't need that pose a real threat to every small car on the road. Highly efficient cars suffer from the same problem as a fit does when hit by a hummer.

btw:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057900611-post16.html
 
LaMidRighter said:
That is a crock. I would love to get a Vauxhall down here and can't because it won't pass any states emission or cafe standards, it has to be retrofitted which would basically invalidate the warranty, it is an English car BTW.
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A Vauxhall is nothing more than another crappy GM car...
 
obvious Child said:
And that's bad? Furthermore by doing this we can force our own producers to innovate to meet the requirements and then sell those cars to other countries raising our exports and increasing our economy. Honda made billions off inventing a highly efficient engine that could meet emission standards without having to install a catalytic converter.
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Think about how much Toyota has made with their hybrid technology. The Prius still has a nine month wait to get one.

How many years ahead was Toyota with their hybrids versus US automakers? Why do you think that happened?
 
MrVicchio said:
In this case the two are rather close. Letting Cali decide this, hurts us all.
As stated in other places, it's cheaper to make cars the same, not make "Cali cars".
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I, personally, would like to drive a car with California emmissions standards. Mine meets Japanese emmissions standards, which may be even higher than California's.
 
Shewter said:
It's gonna suck for people who have old P.O.S. cars that barely make the emissions requirements as is.

I can't imagine already being in that position and now being told that you can't use your car :shock:
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In Washington state it has always been if you fail your emissions test and can produce receipts showing that you spent at least $300 to fix the problem....and still failed, you could get a waiver.

At least it used to be that way.


EDIT: Here is what it says regarding waivers for Washington State:

Any emission test facility can provide you with a waiver, if your vehicle fails the initial test, is repaired by an Authorized Emission Specialist and fails its second test. All emission components must be present, connected and operating properly. You must provide proof that at least the minimum amount required for the waiver was spent for proper diagnosis and emission-related repairs. Refer to the brochure provided to you when your vehicle first failed for waiver requirement information.
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.
 
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ludahai said:
Just be thankful you aren't in Singapore where you are not allowed to have a car older than three years old on the road.
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I've been to Singapore dozens of times and I think you're wrong. As a matter of fact the taxes in Singapore for new cars are so high that it normally DOUBLES the price of the car. People actually take out "mortgages" on their cars and stretch the payments out over 10 or more years.

They also have strict traffic restriction zones where you have to pay a toll to go into the more populous and busy areas. They collect the toll electronically like EZ-Pass in the States.
 
winston53660 said:
Really:confused::shock: I'm really not surprised but that cuts off a lot of history
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Some fun Singapore car facts:

Owning a Vehicle in Singapore
The 2 main factors that impact the cost of car ownership in Singapore are:

* The vehicle tax regime including import duties, additional registration fees (ARF) and road tax.

* The Vehicle Quota System which limits the vehicle population growth in Singapore to approximately 3% per annum. The tool which is used to limit the number of cars registered in Singapore is the Certificate of Entitlement or COE. Each vehicle registered in Singapore must have an accompanying COE which is “attached” to the vehicle throughout the vehicle’s lifespan. For more information on the Vehicle Quota System and COEs, please visit Land Transport Authority (The Land Transport Authority) and ONE.MOTORING - Home (a central motoring portal).

The purchase price of a new car is made up of the following components:
ITEM DESCRIPTION EXAMPLE
OMV Open Market Value or import value of the car as assessed by Singapore Customs $20,000
Import Duty Currently 20% of the OMV $4,000
GST Currently 5% of import value $1,200
ARF Currently 110% of OMV $22,000
Registration fee Currently at $140 $140
Sub-Total Base cost before local accessory installation, number plates, COE, insurance, road tax, etc and any dealer profit. $47,340

Financial Information on Car Ownership in Singapore
 
Family Guy said:
I've been to Singapore dozens of times and I think you're wrong. As a matter of fact the taxes in Singapore for new cars are so high that it normally DOUBLES the price of the car. People actually take out "mortgages" on their cars and stretch the payments out over 10 or more years.
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I know about the taxes. As for the three-year old rule, it was in place nine years ago when I spent a summer there. It is possible (though I am not aware of it) that the rules have changed.

Note: after writing this, I have read that there is a new inspection system in place for cars more than three years old, so obviously the rule has been changed.

They also have strict traffic restriction zones where you have to pay a toll to go into the more populous and busy areas. They collect the toll electronically like EZ-Pass in the States.
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More and more cities around the world are going to exclusion zones. In cities with good public transport, like Singapore, it is practical. It would be in Taipei as well, but not where I live.
 
Family Guy said:
Where you for the Federal government's bailout of the Big 3?
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No I was not. However, I am also not for a drastic shift in standards set by two or three states that will further damage their ability to recover.
 
obvious Child said:
Let's see. You. You are no longer talking about efficiency which is a proven fact in Europe and Japan. You're talking about something entirely new. I suppose that's not raising the bar, it's changing the subject. But given your behavior here, it's not surprising.
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Actually I asked

MrVicchio said:
Do they really, please which ones? And examples of this "lower cost higher efficiency" please.
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obvious Child said:
Clearly you don't get out much. Ever hear of a Smart Car?
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I have, there is one here on campus. It's a niche market car. Good for single people, or folks that have more then one car.

obvious Child said:
Of course there is a reason. Moron Americans have too much huge cars they don't need that pose a real threat to every small car on the road.
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AH HA! Here we go, you are one arrogant snob you know that? Who the hell do you think you are to say what kinda car I, or anyone else should drive? I want an SUV. Something I can travel with my family in comfortably and safely, and for hauling stuff around. And I just like em.

I have a 2008 Ford Focus and it hits 35mpghw

obvious Child said:
Highly efficient cars suffer from the same problem as a fit does when hit by a hummer.

btw:
http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057900611-post16.html
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Don't drive a small car... drive a hummer.
 
jallman said:
Great. So now, Detroit most likely won't be able to sell it's cars in California. Way to stimulate that economy, Obama. Dumbass.
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It does seem a bit reckless when the American car industry is near death to sick some overzealous California legislature on them. Perhaps it's a mercy kill? Finally pull the plug on Detroit once and for all type thing? Let's just hope the environmentalists in California and some of the other over the top states don't get too carried away with setting standards. It would be nice if they aimed for reasonable improvement but I have a feeling they are going to go the dream the impossible dream route and continue to remind us all about the fabulous bike lines they love so much. I think here in Olympia a politician has an orgasm every time a new bike lane is put in. Here, they'd like to see cars go the way of the dodo bird. They upkeep the precious bike lines and constantly are making and connecting new trails while the roads go to hell with pot holes.
 
talloulou said:
It does seem a bit reckless when the American car industry is near death to sick some overzealous California legislature on them. Perhaps it's a mercy kill? Finally pull the plug on Detroit once and for all type thing? Let's just hope the environmentalists in California and some of the other over the top states don't get too carried away with setting standards. It would be nice if they aimed for reasonable improvement but I have a feeling they are going to go the dream the impossible dream route and continue to remind us all about the fabulous bike lines they love so much. I think here in Olympia a politician has an orgasm every time a new bike lane is put in. Here, they'd like to see cars go the way of the dodo bird. They upkeep the precious bike lines and constantly are making and connecting new trails while the roads go to hell with pot holes.
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People are going to drive cars in California. If new mileage standards are passed, cars will be sold in California that meet the standards. If not enough cars can be sold (very unlikely) and people in California are unable to buy cars, the suburban masses will protest and standards will be lowered. This is a democracy. Leave the issue to the states.
 
jallman said:
No I was not. However, I am also not for a drastic shift in standards set by two or three states that will further damage their ability to recover.
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I believe it looks like we'll have 13 (give or take) states who will have either signed onto tougher standards or are considering adopting California's.

Regardless of how you are trying to portray this, the fact of the matter is that we are talking about more than just one or two states.
 
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