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Pope move ignites Holocaust row

Hatuey said:
Of a Bishop who is a holocaust denier.
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What does denial of the Honocaust have to do with one's religious duties?

Yes.
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Then you would know that ones views of a historical issue has nothing to do with religious duties and receiving the Sacrament.

Strawman.
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Not a strawman. Making a comparison. That you have no response to it does not make it a strawman.

Continuation of a strawman.
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See above. One does not have to agree with the CHurch on NON-RELIGIOUS issue to be a good Catholic or even a good Bishop.

Rehabilitation of a holocaust denier is much ado about nothing? If this guy had been a Bishop from China claiming the Tiananmen Square Massacre never happened you'd be the first one on this forum blowing a casket over this.
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I would condemn the position, just as I condemn the position of denying the Holocaust. However, I would not argue that it is appropriate to deny someone the Sacrament over it.

More strawman.
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Is this your stock response when you can't counter a point?

3rd strawman.
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You are wrong. POsition on the Holocaust is NOT a religious matter and is simply NOT grounds for excommunication.

But here Ludahai. Considering I'm not jfuh I'll help you out so that you don't have to come up with strawmen ad nauseum on this topic :

Considering the role the Catholic Church played during WWII and the rocky position Pius XII held it would seem to me like the church who's acknowledged the horrors of the Holocaust would have it in it's best interests to not rehabilitate somebody who is not only famous enough to get on a country's national T.V. station and talk about his beliefs, opinions etc but is also firmly in opposition to a matter the CC has stated it's opinion on MANY times.
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Sounds like someone who is completely unaware of the work of the Catholic Church in working AGAINST the Holocaust and saving as many Jewish people as it could. Read some more on the topic and then get back to me. The Catholic Church did more than any other single non-governmental organization to HELP Jews during the Holocaust.

Then again, why let a few facts get in the way of your anti-Catholic rantings.
 
:shock:WOW, Arch Enemy...there are some serious issues with what is said and the conclusions you draw based upon what was said. You are arguing with stuff you make up in your head--not with what is actually said. Very much like what you despise about the Church and the pope is a caricature of what it really teaches and who he really is.
 
Felicity said:
:shock:WOW, Arch Enemy...there are some serious issues with what is said and the conclusions you draw based upon what was said. You are arguing with stuff you make up in your head--not with what is actually said. Very much like what you despise about the Church and the pope is a caricature of what it really teaches and who he really is.
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Then help me?
Like I said in my earlier post. I've never walked a mile, or ten feet, or three paces, in the shoes of a Catholic follower, so part of my despising could very well be from ignorance.
 
If you read the OP article, only ONE of the four bishops rehabilitated said anything about the Holocaust. However, the reason for his excommunication HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE HOLOCAUST. That is manufactured by the BBC and other Catholic haters.

Read a more objective article, and you will see that it is all to do about TRADITIONALISM in the Church and NOTHING about the Holocaust.

link

Pope Benedict XVI has cancelled the excommunication of four bishops consecrated by rebel French archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, in a new bid to heal a 20-year schism with traditionalists in the Roman Catholic Church.

The Church published an edict lifting the 1998 sanction on Lefevre’s successor Bernard Fellay and three other bishops in his breakaway conservative movement, Bernard de Tissier de Mallerais, Alfonso de Gallerata and Richard Williamson.

Lefebvre, who died in 1991, was excommunicated in 1988 by Benedict’s predecessor John Paul II for having consecrated the bishops in defiance of the Vatican’s authority.

Lefebvre had led a schism from the Church over the more ecumenical approach reflected in the Vatican II reforms of the 1960s and in particular the abandonment of the traditional Latin mass.
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Not that this kernel of truth will get in the way of the Catholic-haters, but here it is.
 
Arch Enemy said:
I have some friends who were kicked out, and refused communion because they were Catholic and were "seen holding hands with people of the same sex".
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Homosexuality IS grounds for the denial of communion. Though, as I don't know the specifics of the situation, I am in no position to make a judgement on that case.
 
ludahai said:
Homosexuality IS grounds for the denial of communion. Though, as I don't know the specifics of the situation, I am in no position to make a judgement on that case.
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Why is homosexuality grounds for denial of communion, yet the laws of Leviticus aren't?
 
Hatuey said:
This guy wasn't born a Bishop. He can be a Christian all he wants. He wasn't born a Bishop. Now save the Sunday school for somebody who cares. That the church allows him to keep any position in the church would be unheard in the political sector or private sector.
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The original excommunication HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE HOLOCAUST!

How many of them are Bishops?
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Strawman. See. Two can play this game. Again: irrevant. The excommunication had nothing to do with the Holocaust.

Strawman.
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Says he with no response to the point made.

3 strawman.
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Are you out of original counter-points today?

Who said I was anti Catholic? 'Religious Victim Card' much?
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Wasn't mentioning any one person specifically, though there have been several bigoted posts in this thread.
 
Arch Enemy said:
I was using the metaphor that Felicity was going with. That whole "Jesus eating with whores" to mean "The Church accepting whores".
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I think you were mis-understanding the attempted metaphor, but I will allow Felicity to speak for herself as she is very good at going this.
 
Arch Enemy said:
Why is homosexuality grounds for denial of communion, yet the laws of Leviticus aren't?
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Have you ever read the Cathechism of the Catholic Church? It is clear in Church teachings that it is grounds for excommunication, for reasons Felicity already explained better than I can.
 
Arch Enemy said:
Then help me?
Like I said in my earlier post. I've never walked a mile, or ten feet, or three paces, in the shoes of a Catholic follower, so part of my despising could very well be from ignorance.
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I'm concerned about how you extrapolate ideas that are not there. When I said Jesus ate with prostitutes, that does not mean that Jesus approved of prostitution! It simply means that the person is of value and worth despite actions that Jesus would find sinful.. Likewise--the proper Catholic attitude toward a person with same sex attraction would be to respect the person but reject the sin that he or she may commit. That is true with all types of sin. I'm a sinner. I've done horrible things in my life. And when I lived contrary to what my Church taught, good priests told me so and in doing that led me to reform my life. Yet I still sin and still need to seek the correct way. Same goes for homosexual acts--it's not the attraction that is the sin, it is engaging in the act that is sinful. People with homosexual attraction have the same opportunity to become a saint that the rest of us do--we all have to take up our cross, reject sin, and live as God designed.
 
Arch Enemy said:
Why is homosexuality grounds for denial of communion, yet the laws of Leviticus aren't?
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Christians believe that the necessity of the laws of the Old Testament (OT) were fulfilled in the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. If you know the story of the last plague visited on the Egyptians when the Hebrews were in the bondage of slavery, then you can see why Jesus' sacrifice takes the place of that act.

OT Hebrews were slaves to the Egyptians
NT All people are in bondage of sin

OT Hebrews sacrificed a lamb and washed the door lintel with the blood so that death might "pass over" their family
NT Jesus--the "lamb of God" washes away sin so that we can have eternal life

There's all kinds of that type of representation in the OT that is fulfilled and made new in the Person of Jesus Christ.

That's why OT "laws" are not binding upon those that accept Christ as messiah--Jesus was the once and final sacrifice that expiated (paid for) all sin past, present, and future. Christians believe all one needs to do is accept that gift and live as Christ laid out in the NT and as his apostles taught.
 
Felicity said:
I'm concerned about how you extrapolate ideas that are not there. When I said Jesus ate with prostitutes, that does not mean that Jesus approved of prostitution! It simply means that the person is of value and worth despite actions that Jesus would find sinful.. Likewise--the proper Catholic attitude toward a person with same sex attraction would be to respect the person but reject the sin that he or she may commit. That is true with all types of sin. I'm a sinner. I've done horrible things in my life. And when I lived contrary to what my Church taught, good priests told me so and in doing that led me to reform my life. Yet I still sin and still need to seek the correct way. Same goes for homosexual acts--it's not the attraction that is the sin, it is engaging in the act that is sinful. People with homosexual attraction have the same opportunity to become a saint that the rest of us do--we all have to take up our cross, reject sin, and live as God designed.
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I understand. But I think not allowing someone communion does not follow under that idea. You are denying a homosexual the right to fellowship with the church because they are committing a sin. I think the Church is disgustingly wrong at that point.

But this is something else I found in Leviticus:

Leviticus 20:13 states "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

So, if we are to follow the laws of the Bible then not only should the person be denied communion, but decapitated.
 
HOWEVER--if you do not live as Jesus taught, then the sacrifice (which is made present at Mass and it is Jesus that we consume when we receive communion) is rejected by the person choosing to live in opposition to Christ's teaching. If you do not accept Him, it is improper to receive Him in communion. That's why a person living an active homosexual life may be denied communion.


**I edited for clarity
 
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Arch Enemy said:
I understand. But I think not allowing someone communion does not follow under that idea. You are denying a homosexual the right to fellowship with the church because they are committing a sin. I think the Church is disgustingly wrong at that point.

But this is something else I found in Leviticus:

Leviticus 20:13 states "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

So, if we are to follow the laws of the Bible then not only should the person be denied communion, but decapitated.
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See--this is why I'm concerned about how you extrapolate ideas or don't hear what is said. I just told you why the OT law is not relevant to the Christian's life in Christ--and yet you dug through Leviticus to condemn the Church. :shrug:
 
Felicity said:
See--this is why I'm concerned about how you extrapolate ideas or don't hear what is said. I just told you why the OT law is not relevant to the Christian's life in Christ--and yet you dug through Leviticus to condemn the Church. :shrug:
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Yeah I saw that after I posted.

My bust.
 
Arch Enemy said:
I understand. But I think not allowing someone communion does not follow under that idea. You are denying a homosexual the right to fellowship with the church because they are committing a sin. I think the Church is disgustingly wrong at that point.

But this is something else I found in Leviticus:

Leviticus 20:13 states "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

So, if we are to follow the laws of the Bible then not only should the person be denied communion, but decapitated.
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The key is repetance. We all sin, but a Catholic truly wants to eliminate that sin. A Catholic will go to Confession, apologize for the sin, and commit themselves to doing what they can to get the sin out of their lives. We will NEVER be 100% successful, but if we earnestly try, that is what God wants from us. However, if you are living an active homosexual life, are you truly repetant for the sin that you are committing and trying to rectify that sin?
 
ludahai said:
The key is repetance. We all sin, but a Catholic truly wants to eliminate that sin. A Catholic will go to Confession, apologize for the sin, and commit themselves to doing what they can to get the sin out of their lives. We will NEVER be 100% successful, but if we earnestly try, that is what God wants from us. However, if you are living an active homosexual life, are you truly repetant for the sin that you are committing and trying to rectify that sin?
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But that turns the conversation into a debate on whether one can "help" being gay or not.
 
Arch Enemy said:
But that turns the conversation into a debate on whether one can "help" being gay or not.
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I have a hot temper. That is a cross I bear. I can't "help" being hot tempered, but when I act upon that inclination--I sin. Then I repent of it and truly try to live according to the gentleness that Jesus taught.

Homosexual attraction is a cross that some people bear. It is a very difficult struggle to live according to the teachings of Christ. Again--it is not the "inclination" to be hotheaded or homosexual that is the sin--it is the act of hostility or engaging in homosexual acts that is the sin. One CAN choose to master his or her inclinations by how he or she chooses to act.
 
Arch Enemy said:
But that turns the conversation into a debate on whether one can "help" being gay or not.
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It doesn't matter. So long as you do not ACT on those impulses, you are ok. Heterosexuals also have to be on their guard for temptation as well. There are things that heterosexuals do that are equally sinful in the eyes of the Church.
 
Felicity said:
I have a hot temper. That is a cross I bear. I can't "help" being hot tempered, but when I act upon that inclination--I sin. Then I repent of it and truly try to live according to the gentleness that Jesus taught.

Homosexual attraction is a cross that some people bear. It is a very difficult struggle to live according to the teachings of Christ. Again--it is not the "inclination" to be hotheaded or homosexual that is the sin--it is the act of hostility or engaging in homosexual acts that is the sin. One CAN choose to master his or her inclinations by how he or she chooses to act.
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Touche'
I am done debating this. Not because I am angered of it, but it seems we have gotten to the barrier known as "fate'. And there is no logical way to argue faith.
 
ludahai said:
It doesn't matter. So long as you do not ACT on those impulses, you are ok. Heterosexuals also have to be on their guard for temptation as well. There are things that heterosexuals do that are equally sinful in the eyes of the Church.
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Key word there is EQUALLYin the eyes of God. Homosexuality is so blown out of proportion that you would think that it was the only sin.

Moe
 
moe said:
Key word there is EQUALLYin the eyes of God. Homosexuality is so blown out of proportion that you would think that it was the only sin.

Moe
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There are a lot of sins. We all commit them. The difference is our attitude toward those sins. I try to improve myself and get sin out of my life as much as humanly possible for me, and though I fail, I make an earnest effort. If you are living an open, homosexual lifestyle, are you earnestly trying to get that sin out of your life? If you are living a promiscuous heterosexual lifestyle, that is equally indicative of not earnestly trying to get the sin out of your life.
 
Arch Enemy said:
Touche'
I am done debating this. Not because I am angered of it, but it seems we have gotten to the barrier known as "fate'. And there is no logical way to argue faith.
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:confused: Where is "fate" or "faith" in that statement at all? What is there is WILL. A person can CHOOSE to act however he or she wants to by the power of his or her WILL. It is a CHOICE. And one can choose to be Catholic or not. However--if one chooses to be Catholic, but doesn't want to abide Catholic teaching, how can you fault the Church for saying--"Hey! That's not what we believe! We can't have you flouting our beliefs and leading others into confusion about where we stand! We'd like you to conform to the teaching of Jesus because we love you, so we hold you to a standard for the benefit of your immortal soul. Either follow our teaching and call yourself a Catholic, or don't--and DON'T."

That's what denying communion does.
 
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