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Militants fire rockets into Israel after cease-fire

Laila said:
Well of course a nation has the right to defend itself but Israel took it way too far, it was bad enough with the air campaign but then invading the most heavily populated area knowing that high civilian casulties was inevitable?
It seemed pretty stupid to drop leaflets, i mean honestley. Where are you supposed to run to? Gaza was locked in and Soldiers was in almost every direction
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so should they instead get the same rockets and fire back indescriminantly and maybe use snipers at palestinian schools....


less would die, but it would be more "proportional", no?....
 
Tashah said:
Here is something that most Westerners do not quite grasp. War in the ME is not equitable to what those in the West understand as war. Never has been. No quarter is asked and none is given. Over 1,000,000 deaths and casualties in the Iraq/Iran war. 20,000 civilians killed in a Syrian city attacked by the Syrian military. The religious inspired civil wars wars in Lebanon. What Iraqi forces did in Kuwait City, the extremely bloody pre-partition violence between Arabs and Jews in the British Mandate of Palestine, etc. etc.

I tend to think this mindset stems from the ancient scripture of both Muslims and Jews. In both the Torah and Qu'ran, there is endemnic violence on an unprecidented scale. This mindset persists to this day in a region that is soaked in religion and bad memories.

I'm not excusing this, I'm just telling it like it is. It is folly to expect ME wars to mirror wars waged in the West. Perhaps and hopefully, this will change someday.
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Is this your precursor to justifying the devastation the media will find in Gaza?
 
Moon said:
. You win by using more force than your enemy brings.
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That is my main issue.
Israel has TRIED the method of just dropping bombs but it does not work. It has a dangerous counter effect of increasing hatred and recruits to the extremists.
 
Laila said:
That is my main issue.
Israel has TRIED the method of just dropping bombs but it does not work. It has a dangerous counter effect of increasing hatred and recruits to the extremists.
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From my view several thousand miles away, it doesn't seem to take much to increase hatred towards Israel. I think in the short term it may increase recruits, but I would guess those new recruits were more predisposed toward that position anyway. I think that kind of response is to be expeced when one's nation or way of life is being attacked. How many men joined the military right after Pearl Harbor? Did the trend continue throughout the war? I don't know the answer but I would guess it would be no.
 
shiznit770 said:
Is this your precursor to justifying the devastation the media will find in Gaza?
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Always attack. Right Shiznit? Never willing to listen or learn from someone who actually lives in the region and has experienced war firsthand.

I daresay, you grow intellectually smaller with each passing day.
 
Tashah said:
Always attack. Right Shiznit? Never willing to listen or learn from someone who actually lives in the region and has experienced war firsthand.

I daresay, you grow intellectually smaller with each passing day.
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I saw your post for what it was, a pathetic excuse for excessive violence. "Our neighbors do it, so we must do it too. We're right though and they're wrong." You may think it was insightful and enlightening but it really just shows your arrogance and unwillingness to keep your country to the standards of its peers.
 
shiznit770 said:
I saw your post for what it was, a pathetic excuse for excessive violence. "Our neighbors do it, so we must do it too. We're right though and they're wrong." You may think it was insightful and enlightening but it really just shows your arrogance and unwillingness to keep your country to the standards of its peers.
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so are you arguin isreal should instead fire the same types of rockets at civillian targets and blow up buses and stuff?


:roll:
 
Tashah said:
The imagined ends - Hamas victory! - are vastly more important than the real means - sacrificing the people and infrastructure of Gaza.
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Hamas has no regard for the lives of Gaza's residents or Gaza's future. Hamas only seeks Israel's destruction.

In the past, Hamas has embraced a "culture of death" in hailing suicide bombers. Hamas uses Gaza's civilian population as human shields. Hamas cynically exploits propaganda opportunities created when Gaza's residents suffer harm on account of Hamas' human shielding.
 
donsutherland1 said:
Hamas has no regard for the lives of Gaza's residents or Gaza's future. Hamas only seeks Israel's destruction.

In the past, Hamas has embraced a "culture of death" in hailing suicide bombers. Hamas uses Gaza's civilian population as human shields. Hamas cynically exploits propaganda opportunities created when Gaza's residents suffer harm on account of Hamas' human shielding.
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Excellent post..... this is it in a nutshell.
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Then by all means, what should the israeli response be? and please be specific. thanks
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Don's assessment is accurate and that is exactly why the current tactic will not work. A comparison can be made to Iraqi insurgents. They care little for the lives of fellow Iraqis, especially if they are neutral or in support of the opposition.

Hamas will not give up in the face of an overwhelming destructive force. I feel there needs to be a surge. A large international policing body within the population, not shelling from afar. In order to defeat (destroy or change) Hamas, Israel needs the support of the Palestinian people.

Military policing would be one of several factors necessary to accomplish this. They would also need to remove the blockade and give Gaza aid for reconstruction. Israel needs to insist on International support and work with its Arab neighbors much more. All of this is immediately unrealistic, but it should be a future goal. Each time Israel uses collective punishment they isolate themselves and tie the hands of their neighboring leaders.
 
shiznit770 said:
Don's assessment is accurate and that is exactly why the current tactic will not work. A comparison can be made to Iraqi insurgents. They care little for the lives of fellow Iraqis, especially if they are neutral or in support of the opposition.

Hamas will not give up in the face of an overwhelming destructive force. I feel there needs to be a surge. A large international policing body within the population, not shelling from afar. In order to defeat (destroy or change) Hamas, Israel needs the support of the Palestinian people.

Military policing would be one of several factors necessary to accomplish this. They would also need to remove the blockade and give Gaza aid for reconstruction. Israel needs to insist on International support and work with its Arab neighbors much more. All of this is immediately unrealistic, but it should be a future goal. Each time Israel uses collective punishment they isolate themselves and tie the hands of their neighboring leaders.
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I had to thank you for actually responding. often this does not happen with some posters....


I can agree with most of this...

when would you remove the blockade? before or after you secure Gaza with an international presence...


(and it would have to be a real one, none of that ninny UN "peacekeeper" crap.... :lol: )
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
I had to thank you for actually responding. often this does not happen with some posters....


I can agree with most of this...

when would you remove the blockade? before or after you secure Gaza with an international presence...


(and it would have to be a real one, none of that ninny UN "peacekeeper" crap.... :lol: )
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I think there needs to be a serious international consensus before the blockade can be lifted. The coalition needs to be diverse and more concerned with a solution than placing blame.

When we generally refer to the blockade we refer to Palestine's complete isolation. They have really been under a de facto blockade for far longer though. Israel should encourage the use of its borders and Gaza's sea coast for trade once adequate security measures are in place. The Egyptian border should remain closed for some time as its use has historically been for counterproductive measures.

The sides are so at odds with each other now it might be necessary to begin reconstruction in a far less populated area of the Gaza strip, away from Gaza city. It also must be understood that to gain the people of Gaza's faith some rocket attacks must be addressed with minimal civilian casualties. The process will not happen over night and it will test both side's patience (especially Israel's) quite severely.
 
shiznit770 said:
I saw your post for what it was, a pathetic excuse for excessive violence. "Our neighbors do it, so we must do it too. We're right though and they're wrong." You may think it was insightful and enlightening but it really just shows your arrogance and unwillingness to keep your country to the standards of its peers.
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You saw. Bravo. Well done.

The good folks at DP can read and will draw their own conclusions. I castigated both ME Arabs and Jews for this war mindset. I don't like it, but to deny it one must also deny history and reality.

You on the the hand, have no intention to ever learn something or even consider experiences different than yours. You always assume that an Israeli is trying to spin something because that is your intrinsic nature... to spin anything written by an Israeli and to always protect "your side".

Shallow, selfish, petty, and pitiful.
 
If I was Israel and got this 1 week ultimatum I would go ahead and do it. Pull back let them have the land. The first attack that happened afterwards I would go in full bore and take control of the WHOLE of Gaza, not just the part they have now. Then I would go through and wipe out every single person that is suspected of being Hamas. Forget civilian casualties. Then tell the people that "Hey, we will withdraw to our borders one more time. If we are attacked again then we will do just what we did this time and this time KEEP Gaza for our own".
 
shiznit770 said:
I think there needs to be a serious international consensus before the blockade can be lifted. The coalition needs to be diverse and more concerned with a solution than placing blame.

When we generally refer to the blockade we refer to Palestine's complete isolation. They have really been under a de facto blockade for far longer though. Israel should encourage the use of its borders and Gaza's sea coast for trade once adequate security measures are in place. The Egyptian border should remain closed for some time as its use has historically been for counterproductive measures.

The sides are so at odds with each other now it might be necessary to begin reconstruction in a far less populated area of the Gaza strip, away from Gaza city. It also must be understood that to gain the people of Gaza's faith some rocket attacks must be addressed with minimal civilian casualties. The process will not happen over night and it will test both side's patience (especially Israel's) quite severely.
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:lol:

gaza - Google Maps


can you show me the "far less populated" area. its pretty dense there.....



fact remains, is Hammas must go. they are the instigators and the cause of the "palestinians" suffering....

Isreal with its defensive attacks here are doing what you say short of full occupation.

Perhaps if a true international coalition were to occupy Gaza again not anti-isreal UN types perhaps you would have something here.
 
Israel is in a catch 22 right now. If they keep the ceasefire, then eventually they will be forced to pull out of Gaza by international pressure. While the international community will be happy with the conflict being over, eventually Hamas will fire rockets into Israel and the situation will repeat itself over and over again.

On the other hand if Israel destroys Hamas, the Arab community will be mad. They will use propaganda to spin it on how bad Israel is, not how bad Hamas was. And with that more people will hate Israel in the middle east. And the UN will wet themselves at what Israel sucks.

I say Israel should overthrow Hamas, and here is why:

By overthrowing Hamas Israel has a better chance for long term peace. If they pump Gaza full of money and rebuild it and make it better, the people will be less angry at them and may elect someone who doesn't want Israel to be destroyed.

While of they don't take out Hamas, a few years from now Israel will be responding to rocket attacks. Both choices are not that good but they have to try for piece.
 
shiznit770 said:
Is this your precursor to justifying the devastation the media will find in Gaza?
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It will do the world a lot more good if the media concentrates on the cause of this never-ending war rather than the results of hatred - the world is so inured to this...
I think this is called investigative reporting, which is dangerous and hard work..

The UN or Israel can end this. The criminal organization, extremist Islam must be apprehended and bought to trail..
Or Gaza and Hamas can be wiped off the face of this planet.
 
Tashah said:
Source: CNN.com
According to Hamas and Islamic Jihad leaders however, there can be no ceasefire.
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:cheers:
Great stuff. Hope the Israeli's make the terrorists and their supporters suffer like they never have.

If they want it... GIVE IT TO 'EM until there are no more idiots to launch rockets or throw stones.
 
shiznit770 said:
Military policing would be one of several factors necessary to accomplish this. They would also need to remove the blockade and give Gaza aid for reconstruction. Israel needs to insist on International support and work with its Arab neighbors much more. All of this is immediately unrealistic, but it should be a future goal. Each time Israel uses collective punishment they isolate themselves and tie the hands of their neighboring leaders.
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1. Military policing from whom?

2. Israel has insisted on international support. They WANT international monitors on the border to enforce the terms of the cease fire. It is Hamas that rejected that proposal.
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
:lol:

gaza - Google Maps


can you show me the "far less populated" area. its pretty dense there.....



fact remains, is Hammas must go. they are the instigators and the cause of the "palestinians" suffering....

Isreal with its defensive attacks here are doing what you say short of full occupation.

Perhaps if a true international coalition were to occupy Gaza again not anti-isreal UN types perhaps you would have something here.
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I can't say I am familiar with the specific population distribution of Gaza, but where I live in nearly as crowded (the western plain of Taiwan is a very crowded area) and yet there ARE locations with relatively sparse population compared to the densely populated cities. Surely there are places in Gaza that are comparatively less densely populated.
 
ludahai said:
Time for Israel to take off the gloves and do everything it can to destroy Hamas. Sorry for the civilians, but anyone who can't see that Hamas is to blame for this simply has no sense of perspective or justice.
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...isn't it what they said like 3 weeks ago?

you can see the result of this policy in the first post of this thread
 
Tashah said:
Source: CNN.com

Almost every nation and the UN has called for a mutual ceasefire. Since any mutuality between Israel and Hamas seems to be impossible, Israel unilaterally declared an Israeli ceasefire to begin at 2am Sunday local time.

According to Hamas and Islamic Jihad leaders however, there can be no ceasefire until the IDF withdraws from Gaza. At the same time though, they provide no mechanism to allow for a peaceful and non-violent IDF withdrawal.

Once again, to the detriment of all Gazan's, their leadership spurns an opportunity to end the violence within the Strip. Not only that, but their leadership continues to engage in the exact same aggression (missile attacks on Israeli civilians) that initiated the war in the first place.

It seems to me that Hamas ideology places more importance on the value of Pan-Arabic propaganda (Our military was triumphant!) than it does on ending the violence within the territory it supposedly governs. The imagined ends - Hamas victory! - are vastly more important than the real means - sacrificing the people and infrastructure of Gaza.

There is no mutuality here. There is no Hamas reciprosity to the Israeli ceasefire. Israel has opted to end the violence. Hamas continues to attack.

Unqualified arrogance and unbounded ignorance. Very sad.
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Looks like they apply the ceasefire now

I know it may sound strange (and you'll call me apologist for that) but you should give them some time. You can't expect them to stop all the attacks in one day. It's sad, and they are wrong, but it's like that.

The right thing to do is not over-react. Let them calm down. It has worked nearly perfectly during 4 months. In the long term, that's how every attack will stop.
 
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