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Breaking: Israel 'to announce ceasefire'

Lerxst said:
Why would you say this? It would make you no better than Hamas.
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Not really.
I understand the concept you may need to take lives in order to say lives.
I also value the lives of people who demonstrate they wish to live in peace over these who always demonstrate they don't.
 
Laila said:
Because he knows he will be safe on the other side of the world.
Bargaining other peoples lives is much more easier when you know there is no chance of you being amongst the dead
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Yes I do live on the other side of the world but that didn't stop me from serving in the ME did it.
Make no mistake I would take the lives of thousands to save a fraction of that in American lives. I simply apply that to the Israels fight with the Hamas.
 
cherokee said:
Not really.
I understand the concept you may need to take lives in order to say lives.
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As do I. I've had to do just that. Apparently the way we have both digested that knowledge has produced differing points of view. There is an extreme difference in engaging your enemy and in deliberately embarking upon an initiative that will kill an overwhelmingly disproportionate number of innocent civilians simply because you are having a hard time finding and fixing your enemy. That is 1940's Axis/1980's Soviet occupation of Afghanistan strategy.

I also value the lives of people who demonstrate they wish to live in peace over these who always demonstrate they don't.
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You're assuming that all Palestinians in Gaza want war. Which is incorrect. Many Palestinians are very discontented and angry at Israel, but would most likely never fire a shot in anger. Would they protest, burn the Israeli flag, say mean things? Sure. Does that mean they want to wage war and in live in a constant state of siege and despair? Not at all. You don't punish those people, you punish Hamas.
 
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Then you have no problem with me saying i'd sacrifice the 17 dead Israelis for the 1,000 Palestinians :roll:

My brother served in ME, can't say i was particularly happy. I'd much rather he quits the army
 
Lerxst said:
As do I. I've had to do just that. Apparently the way we have both digested that knowledge has produced differing points of view. There is an extreme difference in engaging your enemy and in deliberately embarking upon an initiative that will kill an overwhelmingly disproportionate number of innocent civilians simply because you are having a hard time finding and fixing your enemy. That is 1940's Axis/1980's Soviet occupation of Afghanistan strategy.
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When your enemy hides among civilians you will always have as you put it
"overwhelmingly disproportionate number of innocent civilians" Its the price you must pay to route them out. Its the price the people pay for allowing this to happen.


Lerxst said:
You're assuming that all Palestinians in Gaza want war. Which is incorrect. Many Palestinians are very discontented and angry at Israel, but would most likely never fire a shot in anger. Would they protest, burn the Israeli flag, say mean things? Sure. Does that mean they want to wage war and in live in a constant state of siege and despair? Not at all. You don't punish those people, you punish Hamas.
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And you know as well as I do a group using guerrilla tactics cant operate without the support of the local populace. Whats the percentage of those who don't support the hamas?
 
Rodney said:
Ludahai,I had you mistaken for someone else,because that is the last thing I expected to hear from you.Its my first thought too...I wanted Israel to crush them this round. The up comeing nuclear attack on Israel by the Iraneans is a ,[full plate]. Hamas has shown they will not stop,and must be beaten into submision.
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Why are you surprised to hear this from me? I have been a strong supporter of Israel all through this forum for the past three weeks during this attack on Hamas.
 
Laila said:
It depends on if you accept high civilian casulties as a consequence
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And as much as I hate war and mourn the civilians, if that price is needed, then it must be done - OR the Gazans can actually go ahead and do something about the Hamas thugs who took power by force 19 months ago.
 
donsutherland1 said:
With respect to Israel's forces, I agree with the decision to retain a presence in the Gaza Strip until Hamas ceases its rocket attacks and a viable mechanism is in place for stopping the smuggling of weapons to Hamas. Nonetheless, just as I believe the ceasefire is somewhat premature, I am worried that Israel will prematurely withdraw its forces from the Gaza Strip before all rocket fire has ended and before a credible mechanism for stopping the flow of arms into the Gaza Strip is function and is demonstrated to be effective.
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And fortunately, regardless of what any Arab or their sympathisers on here tell you, this is COMPLETELY consistant with UNSC resolution 1860.
 
Laila said:
It depends on if you accept high civilian casulties as a consequence
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Hamas' model for success depends on high civilian casualties...up to a point.
 
ludahai said:
And as much as I hate war and mourn the civilians, if that price is needed, then it must be done - OR the Gazans can actually go ahead and do something about the Hamas thugs who took power by force 19 months ago.
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Weren't they voted into office?
 
ludahai said:
Why are you surprised to hear this from me? I have been a strong supporter of Israel all through this forum for the past three weeks during this attack on Hamas.
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Again MY mistake. I don`t get on line much so I haven`t gotten to know everyone very well yet. A lot of good people in here. Not all in agreement either but otherwise very intelligent people. The stupidest among us seem to be the ,"ultra liberal ,hug your favorite hamas member', crowd. I`m openly defensive of Israel. They have been the worlds punching bag now for what, about 5 thousand years. ENOUGH. In my entire adult life(high school class of 69) the muslim world has not stopped their terrorism,and instigating wars. The muslim gets full credit for involving the entire continent of Africa in terror,rape,pillage,genocide, overthrowing governments, rapeing some more, f*** them. Thank you for getting behind a good people,a good society.
 
Lerxst said:
I'm just really puzzled at how Hamas could demand anything from Israel given the current situation. They are getting relentlessly hunted by superior forces with nowhere to run. All that Hamas is doing is giving the IDF license to continue operations.

The non-combatant Palestinian people are suffering immeasurably. lives are being lost on both sides, people are being wounded and maimed on both sides, and neither side really seems to give a ****.
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I think it's because Hamas does not care if every innocent Palestinian civilian in Gaza is killed; every one that dies strengthens their position and makes Israel look worse in the eyes of the international community.
Do you really think the world is blaming Hamas because Israel is killing innocent civilians? Dream on.
Hamas is getting exactly what they want. Why should they ever agree to a ceasefire?
 
1069 said:
I think it's because Hamas does not care if every innocent Palestinian civilian in Gaza is killed; every one that dies strengthens their position and makes Israel look worse in the eyes of the international community.
Do you really think the world is blaming Hamas because Israel is killing innocent civilians? Dream on.
Hamas is getting exactly what they want. Why should they ever agree to a ceasefire?
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1069 said:
I think it's because Hamas does not care if every innocent Palestinian civilian in Gaza is killed; every one that dies strengthens their position and makes Israel look worse in the eyes of the international community.
Do you really think the world is blaming Hamas because Israel is killing innocent civilians? Dream on.
Hamas is getting exactly what they want. Why should they ever agree to a ceasefire?
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That was very well said and 100% accurate.
 
bhkad said:
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I am international community and I whole heartedly blame Hamas and Palestine,and the entire international community of Islam for being so pathetic and ancient,and waring incessantly. Any and all international community supplying the weapons to Hamas,the PLO,the insurgents... you should be killed and removed as not ,"Part of the Problem",but the whole of the problem. No,you folks are wrong,I blame Hamas/Islam.... The international community has spoken. Thank You.
 
Rodney said:
I am international community and I whole heartedly blame Hamas and Palestine,and the entire international community of Islam for being so pathetic and ancient,and waring incessantly. Any and all international community supplying the weapons to Hamas,the PLO,the insurgents... you should be killed and removed as not ,"Part of the Problem",but the whole of the problem. No,you folks are wrong,I blame Hamas/Islam.... The international community has spoken. Thank You.
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Thank God you are a nobody then and speak for no such community.
 
cherokee said:
That was very well said and 100% accurate.
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Well, my dad told it to me the other day. Before I talked to him, I didn't really understand what the deal was over there.
He also said, not to offend anyone, that Israel should not have started aggressively defending themselves; it was a mistake.
Hamas was losing support among the Palestinians before this started, he said.
Globally, their reputation was terrible. And Israel was sympathetic in the world's eyes.

This aggressive retaliation on the part of Israel is just what Hamas wanted. They knew they were losing power and support among the people. They were deliberately trying to provoke Israel into attacking them, and Israel fell right into the trap.

Now the world at large (some of it, anyway) thinks Israel's being a big bully, Hamas looks more sympathetic, and the palestinian people are once again staunchly behind Hamas.

So, that's what I know about this.
Although i'm interested in hearing other people's opinions about it.
 
1069 said:
This aggressive retaliation on the part of Israel is just what Hamas wanted. They knew they were losing power and support among the people. They were deliberately trying to provoke Israel into attacking them, and Israel fell right into the trap.
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Israel knew full well that a forceful response to Hamas provocations would result in bad global publicity. But there was nowhere else to go.

During November and December of 2008, Hamas ratcheted up the missile attacks to between 30-40 per day. Not only that, but they also went from primitive Katyusha rockets to Soviet Grad missiles which have far larger payloads and far longer range. Not only Israel, but also Egypt and Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas warned Hamas to stop.

No nation can neglect to protect its citizens simply because the international community will suddenly acquire a conscience. Where was this international conscience and outrage when Hamas missiles were falling on Israeli cities and towns? Simply put, enough is enough. Patience and restraint cannot endure in perpetuity.
 
Where was this international conscience and outrage when Hamas missiles were falling on Israeli cities and towns?
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It was with Israel (and still is, to a large degree).
But also, these actions were perceived as ants and mosquitos annoying an elephant: a nuisance problem.
That's how I think the international community viewed that.
I understand now that the Hamas attacks had recently racheted up a notch, which is something I'm not sure too many people were aware of.

But you must understand that just as conservatives tend to identify with strength, with top dogs, with victors, liberals have a parallel but opposite tendency to identify with outclassed underdogs. And the world is trending toward liberalism right now, after a decade of leaning right.

If militant Islamic extremism is an enemy to be battled (and it is, if they wish to wipe jews off the planet), then the war against it must be waged in the hearts and minds of the people.
It cannot be vanquished with military might.
That only strengthens it, since it hardens the people's hearts against the West and against Israel.
Every time the West has used some show of force against them, killed some civilians, damaged their infrastructures, this has backfired.
They cannot be defeated or kept in check with force and threats of force.
They know that any show of force on the part of the West only makes them (the Islamic extremists) stronger by bringing them more support from formerly moderate muslims.

Israel and the West must show patience and forebearance in order to truly win this war and effect a lasting peace. Let the palestinian people see for themselves that Hamas is wrong about Israel. They were starting to see that, to believe it.
But now they've hardened again, because israel has killed their children and destroyed their infrastructure.
This has only assured that hamas ranks will swell, that support for them will grow, that there will be no end to this for years to come.
You can't kill them all. You must win the hearts of the palestinian people. This action Israel's taking will do the exact opposite.

I'm not trying to be insulting, but that's how I feel about it.
 
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cherokee said:
When your enemy hides among civilians you will always have as you put it
"overwhelmingly disproportionate number of innocent civilians" Its the price you must pay to route them out. Its the price the people pay for allowing this to happen.
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I understand that Hamas hides among the civilian population, but that still doesn't give you license for inflicting massive civilian casualties just to get at them. Hamas gained popular support in Gaza because they were taking the stance of the avenger of the Palestinian people, who have lived under years of conflict, with the Israeli's exclusively having the well armored upper hand. I'm not going to get into who started it and why Israels has had to take an "iron fist" approach to Gaza, but the majority of Palestinians in Gaza right now were unfortunately born into the cycle. They weren't the authors of the Palestinian Problem. But growing up living in those conditions is very conducive to a sense of oppression which leads to a desire to lash out. This isn't a foreign concept. Israel on the other hand has a full right to defend itself and should. Over the years in this cycle playing out Gaza has basically been reduced to a bombed out ghetto in most places. I doubt many Palestinians actually know the real history of the problem, they just know Israeli tanks are rumbling through their neighborhoods blowing up houses and Israeli planes drop bombs on their buildings. In their mind, why wouldn't they support Hamas? Israel, to them, appears to be the devil incarnate.

Given the history and Hamas' unwillingness to seriously even talk about peace I don't know that this will ever end. But massive civilian casualties will not lead to exterminating Hamas. It will only lead to more joining their ranks.

And you know as well as I do a group using guerrilla tactics cant operate without the support of the local populace. Whats the percentage of those who don't support the hamas?
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I agree, but neither of us know the answer to your question. What we do know is that there are Palestinians who want peace.
 
Tashah said:
Israel knew full well that a forceful response to Hamas provocations would result in bad global publicity. But there was nowhere else to go.

During November and December of 2008, Hamas ratcheted up the missile attacks to between 30-40 per day. Not only that, but they also went from primitive Katyusha rockets to Soviet Grad missiles which have far larger payloads and far longer range. Not only Israel, but also Egypt and Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas warned Hamas to stop.

No nation can neglect to protect its citizens simply because the international community will suddenly acquire a conscience. Where was this international conscience and outrage when Hamas missiles were falling on Israeli cities and towns? Simply put, enough is enough. Patience and restraint cannot endure in perpetuity.
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While I have serious reservations about Israels decision to exercise the level of force they used in this latest incursion, I appreciate and respect your opinion of how this situation is playing out.

My biggest concern is not over the international outrage, but over whether or not this will have any beneficial impact for Israel. The reason I say this is that given the nature of the incursion, it has brought substantial destruction of property and many civilian casualties. If Israel doesn't manage to actually neutralize Hamas completely, which I doubt they will, I believe all that will have been accomplished is giving many Palestinians a reason to seek revenge against Israel.

Seriously, what is the Israeli end game? Short of completely locking Gaza down and declaring martial law, the attacks from Hamas will not stop and Israel will be in the same boat it's in.

As much as this sounds horrible, I almost think long term Israeli occupation of Gaza and marital law are the only things that will actually stop the rockets and reduce Hamas' operational capability. I know it's flawed to think this way, but possibly if the Israelis did this while at the same time pumping resources into rebuilding the infrastructure and providing for the Palestinians maybe they would get used to "peace." To not living under threat of air raids because Hamas fired a dozen rockets into Israel.

I know it would never work, but I don't know what else will.
 
cherokee said:
Not really.
I understand the concept you may need to take lives in order to say lives.
I also value the lives of people who demonstrate they wish to live in peace over these who always demonstrate they don't.
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That's an extremely simplistic view of the actual events on the ground and show a naivety, ignorance on your part. When you suggest "Take lives in order to save lives" That can only be the extermination of the civilian population in its entirety. The consequence of such an action would cause catastrophic events in the Region, all ties with moderate countries would cease. Israel would loose an already dwindling support. And not to mention the catalogue of WAR CRIMES to be answered. Boy there's some sick people out there.....

Paul.
 
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