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Obama to End Military's 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' Policy

I simply do not understand the necessity of this. Why do gays feel like they need to be "out" while they're serving in the military? We all make sacrifices when we enlist, why are gays so reticent to do the same? When I was in the service I kept my political opinion about our Commander In Chief a secret. Sure, every now and again I would confide in people of my respective rank, but I certainly didn't feel the entire damned military needed to personally accommodate me and my politics. The same thing should go for homosexuality. Confide in those with whom you feel comfortable but do not act like everyone else must accommodate your lifestyle. It's called making a sacrifice on behalf of your country and your unit. My solution? Get a straw and suck it up.
 
No like we realise that it is probably okay for gays to serve in the military but don't give into PC idiocy to change everything in a day and just do it with caution as most things in politics should be done.

So one a day then? :confused:

How much more gradual could it go? It's been 15 years with this stupid policy.

This approach may infuriate the liberal rationalist who gets his knowledge of politics from simplistic formulas and has no concept of the complexity of society and institutions but it is the sensible way to approach politics.

You got in your partisan shots. Nice. It doesn't help your argument but I'm sure your cat is impressed.

The individual or group of individual or even a generation can't hope to understand all the interconnectedness and latent functions of institutions and should therefore remember any change may have unintended consequences which suggests that caution, piecemeal change and continuity should be stressed.

What unintended consequences?

Are the queers going to ruin our soil?
 
Men and women do not shower together in the military. Because of don't ask don't tell straight service members do not know who they are. When I served I am sure there were gays that served with me. And we probably showered at the same time. During my six years in the army I never knew a single male soldier that was gay at least as far as I knew. My point is that men and women shower seperatly for a reason. If gays are going to serve openly then they are going to have to accomidate everyone. Gays will have to have seperate showers from straight soldiers just as women shower seperatly from male soldiers. You wouldn't expect women to shower with men because they are attraced to each other physically. Gay men are attracted to other men so you wouldn't expect straight men to knowingly shower with gay men.

Do you know the difference between a shower and loud, grunting, sweaty beefcake on beefcake action?
 
I simply do not understand the necessity of this. Why do gays feel like they need to be "out" while they're serving in the military? We all make sacrifices when we enlist, why are gays so reticent to do the same? When I was in the service I kept my political opinion about our Commander In Chief a secret. Sure, every now and again I would confide in people of my respective rank, but I certainly didn't feel the entire damned military needed to personally accommodate me and my politics. The same thing should go for homosexuality. Confide in those with whom you feel comfortable but do not act like everyone else must accommodate your lifestyle. It's called making a sacrifice on behalf of your country and your unit. My solution? Get a straw and suck it up.

Why do you expect them to sacrifice more than you? You don't have to hide your sexual preference. Sexual preference is different than talking bad about your boss.
 
Why do you expect them to sacrifice more than you?

Because their needs are more potentially complicating and divisive than mine. Also, the military makes no garuntees of "equal" sacrifice. Some people have to sacrifice more than others as a consequence of their respective circumstances. Sh*t happens, so deal with it. This isn't the f*cking boyscouts. We got people to kill and lives to save, so lace up your boots, put on your boony cover, and fall the f*ck in. It's harsh but that's the way it's gotta be.
 
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We got people to kill and lives to save, so lace up your boots, put on your boony cover, and fall the f*ck in.

This is exactly why it doesn't matter. No one needs to worry about it.


And here's something to think about guys, if you are that worried about showering with a gay dude, wouldn't you want to know who it is so you could avoid it?
 
Wow. Kick over one rock and uncover a writhing, squirming nest of hidden homophobia. Who knew?

This thread makes me sad.

:(
 
Wow. Kick over one rock and uncover a writhing, squirming nest of hidden homophobia. Who knew?

:(

^^ No animals were harmed in the typing of this post. ^^
 
This is exactly why it doesn't matter. No one needs to worry about it.

But...they...do. It's a fact of life that is unavoidable so stop pretending like we can wish it away and stop pretending like you know what's best for the military. I'm sorry if it sounds harsh but that's the bottom line. A policy that represents a potential complication for our military is a policy that needs to find its home in a sh*t-can.

Wow. Kick over one rock and uncover a writhing, squirming nest of hidden homophobia. Who knew?

This thread makes me sad.

Kick over another rock and uncover a nest of civilians who are potentially willing to sacrifice a portion of our military's operational proficiency for their PC social agenda.

This thread makes me sad.
 
As you all can see by my thanking both sides of this argument, you can see my conservative values getting drop kicked by my libertarian views....


To me people are people and I personally have no issue with it. That said. I see Sgt. Rocks, anf Ethereal's position as the echo of the military as a whole... you have to remember inside of the military itself you have a microcosm of many different cultures. Some view homosexuality as more abhorrent than others. No one I mean no one serving as far as I have seen whether is myself, ethereal or sgt rock care about your homosexuality. But if you make it an issue, so will they. like I said... some things are not an issue until you make it one....

Do I think DADT should go away? yes and no. Do I think that morals and conduct should be upheld absolutley..... if one maintains ones military bearing then its no issue, But when one does not, will it become a civillian social issue? this is what needs to be considered...

Look you are there to serve your country. I can not count on the number of idiots my huge ego had to submit to while I served. You are not there to sit on floats in hot pants shooting water pistols...


Alex is a prime example. he could be gay, no one cared, and he served honorably.... I think removing the DADT risks these men from serving honorably not because of thier gayness but as being "oh thats the gay guy" and being treated as such.......


In other words, when you all remove DADT expect a lot more discrimination now that you all labled everyone based on there preferences.


I am kinda rambling tonight. too much cough syrup.... :lol:
 
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if one maintains ones military bearing then its no issue, But when one does not, will it become a civillian social issue? this is what needs to be considered...

I agree, but there will ALWAYS be somebody that doesn't maintain their military bearing and thus, needs either a kick in the butt or a kick out of the military depending on the situation.

We can't base decisions on whether someone will break the rules, because let's face it, there are already rules in the military and people break them. We wouldn't have article 15 hearings in the Army or Court Marshals if everyone followed the rules.
 
I agree, but there will ALWAYS be somebody that doesn't maintain their military bearing and thus, needs either a kick in the butt or a kick out of the military depending on the situation.

Military Humor - Air Force Wall-to-Wall Counseling


We can't base decisions on whether someone will break the rules, because let's face it, there are already rules in the military and people break them. We wouldn't have article 15 hearings in the Army or Court Marshals if everyone followed the rules.



See my concern in this case is not just someone. I served when DADT was implemented. the very idea of a draft dodger instilling such a change was abhorrent....

Not because there were gays in the military, but that someone who ran to canada had the audacity to do it..... it did affect morale.... again me, peoples are peoples, but at the same time i saw what it did to morale, thankfully it was peace time....
 
See my concern in this case is not just someone. I served when DADT was implemented. the very idea of a draft dodger instilling such a change was abhorrent....

Not because there were gays in the military, but that someone who ran to canada had the audacity to do it..... it did affect morale.... again me, peoples are peoples, but at the same time i saw what it did to morale, thankfully it was peace time....

I also served during that time, and agree that was a lot to take. I still agreed with it because I had an older brother that was denied because he was gay but wanted to serve (it was known locally he was gay so no chance of hiding that), but I can understand your feelings on that will Bill.

I think the times are changing and it is indeed time for a change. I still think the military can handle it. It has changed much since my uncle was in and I think it will change much since I left.

I mean I am still trying to get over the new Army uniforms they have now, so I understand change can be hard even in the littlest of details, but I think it can be done.
 
I also served during that time, and agree that was a lot to take. I still agreed with it because I had an older brother that was denied because he was gay but wanted to serve (it was known locally he was gay so no chance of hiding that), but I can understand your feelings on that will Bill.

I think the times are changing and it is indeed time for a change. I still think the military can handle it. It has changed much since my uncle was in and I think it will change much since I left.

I mean I am still trying to get over the new Army uniforms they have now, so I understand change can be hard even in the littlest of details, but I think it can be done.

What? You don't like the ACU? So much easier than BDU. No ****ing boot polishing FTW
 
What? You don't like the ACU? So much easier than BDU. No ****ing boot polishing FTW

No, it's not that I don't like it, I'm jealous that I didn't have it when I was in :lol:
 
I also served during that time, and agree that was a lot to take. I still agreed with it because I had an older brother that was denied because he was gay but wanted to serve (it was known locally he was gay so no chance of hiding that), but I can understand your feelings on that will Bill.

He could of signed up out of town. but that is another story ;)


I think the times are changing and it is indeed time for a change. I still think the military can handle it. It has changed much since my uncle was in and I think it will change much since I left.

Indeed they are, at the same time, waiting until these wars are over to me seems to be best course of action if you are going to make this change.


I mean I am still trying to get over the new Army uniforms they have now, so I understand change can be hard even in the littlest of details, but I think it can be done.


They suck. they and the Marines had a chance to use crye's multicam which is far superior to any digital pattern...... they failed...


and do not get me started on the USAF's digital tiger stripes..... :shock:
 
He could of signed up out of town. but that is another story ;)

He wanted military intelligence with a clearance, that would have been found out is why.

Indeed they are, at the same time, waiting until these wars are over to me seems to be best course of action if you are going to make this change.

Well, that's where I disagree, but I can't tell you for certain who would be wrong or right. I understand your position though, just disagree with it.


They suck. they and the Marines had a chance to use crye's multicam which is far superior to any digital pattern...... they failed...


and do not get me started on the USAF's digital tiger stripes..... :shock:

The fact they don't have to shine boots or starch the uniforms make me jealous. I spent a lot of money getting that done not to mention when I was lower enlisted they made us do it on our own and took hours.

I still think when your lower enlisted you should do your own uniforms and boots though, discipline and all.
 
So one a day then? :confused:

How much more gradual could it go? It's been 15 years with this stupid policy.
:rofl

What a liberal answer to think 15 years is a long time. But even on your time scale it hasn't been openly accepted in the military, so you could start there and move cautiously.



You got in your partisan shots. Nice. It doesn't help your argument but I'm sure your cat is impressed.
Of course it helps the argument. I'm British, that bipartisan crap is for Americans, no one talks about being or not being partisan here.


What unintended consequences?

Are the queers going to ruin our soil?
Who knows what consequences there could be, that is the point. Society and institutions are complex and interconnectedness and often have latent functions so it is best to be cautious and attempt piecemeal, gradual change.

Once this obvious in politics but these days the descendents of Jacobins and Bolsheviks seem to own the stage.
 
:rofl

What a liberal answer to think 15 years is a long time. But even on your time scale it hasn't been openly accepted in the military, so you could start there and move cautiously.



Of course it helps the argument. I'm British, that bipartisan crap is for Americans, no one talks about being or not being partisan here.

I bolded your partisanship that you deny in the second paragraph for you. It's left/right with you. I don't care what you call the left/right parties in the UK. You are still a partisan along the left/right scale.

Your cat was impressed wasn't it?

Who knows what consequences there could be, that is the point. Society and institutions are complex and interconnectedness and often have latent functions so it is best to be cautious and attempt piecemeal, gradual change.

Once this obvious in politics but these days the descendents of Jacobins and Bolsheviks seem to own the stage.

Don't go outside your house. You never know what could happen. :roll:

What's the worst thing you can imagine would come from it?
 
I bolded your partisanship that you deny in the second paragraph for you. It's left/right with you. I don't care what you call the left/right parties in the UK. You are still a partisan along the left/right scale.

Your cat was impressed wasn't it?
Read it again, I didn't deny being partisan. I said in Britain that being partisan is normal, it is in the US where you get this bipartisan crap.


Don't go outside your house. You never know what could happen. :roll:

What's the worst thing you can imagine would come from it?
We aren't talking about houses but society and institutions although it is characteristic of political rationalism that you apply an enginerring metaphor to politics as if society and institutions were so simplistic as to be apply to be molded by simplistic formulas.

All I'm saying is caution should be used and change should as far as possible be gradual and piecemeal rather than massive and sweeping in the field of politics. It is a epistomolgical modesty that realises that in social and political affairs humans have many gaps in their understanding so caution is needed. #

This is ancient Conservative wisdom, in fact along with support for intermediate associations it is basically Conservatism.
 
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My experience from actual military service, and being openly gay through it, is that it is not an issue. Do you think about what someone is thinking of you sexually during extreme conditions like combat? If so, then you are the one who cannot focus on the mission and you are the one who does not belong in the military. Sex is the last thing on my mind in those situations.

This coming from an air force guy. So the entire experience boils down to combat? Give me a break. Very little of military life has to do with actual combat. You know this as well as anyone.

Interesting how people who "do not approve of the lifestyle" do not understand that gays are everywhere, including the military. Chances are you come across one everyday and you probably shared a barrack with at least one.

Of this I have no doubt. So what? This is about "don't ask, don't tell" remember?

Just because you do not approve of the lifestyle does not mean it is not already near you. To think otherwise is nothing short of denial and is not at all grounded in reality.

You did not read the rest of the posts did you?
 
Wow. Kick over one rock and uncover a writhing, squirming nest of hidden homophobia. Who knew?

This thread makes me sad.

:(

This is pretty ignorant. This has nothing to do with fear.

What part of this are people not understanding?
 
Are homosexual men going to be given the same treatment as women based on principle then?

Trust me, there is no anti-gayness about this. I just don't know how they would justify holding women out of the frontlines if they allow openly gay men.
 
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Are homosexual men going to be given the same treatment as women based on principle then?

Trust me, there is no anti-gayness about this. I just don't know how they would justify holding women out of the frontlines if they allow openly gay men.

I really don't want to be offended...but I am finding really hard not to be. So, if you don't mind helping me out here, please explain to me how you arrive at that.
 
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