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'UN drafting ceasefire plan that would reinstate PA in Gaza'

The innocent men, women and children are used the way Israel uses tanks and they have more power than any one tank.

Destroy a tank = *Yawn*

Accidentally kill an innocent = HEADLINE NEWS + CRIES OF BRUTALITY + PROTESTS

The Palestinians are killing their innocents to strike a blow at your conscience. They are manipulating you and you are bending over and allowing them to do it.
Oh I get it.

The Palestinian's kill their own children, then hang on to the carcass and wait for an Israeli air-strike, then run over and place their dead relatives under the rubble and wait for the media to report the casualties.

Yeah, that's reasonable.
 
It is a freaking WAR ZONE. Do you have ONE SHREAD of evidence that it was intentional? Heck, sometimes troops eve fire at their own. I am sure that is intentional too.
Like I said, you'll excuse anything they do.

Read the link instead of asking me questions.
 
Hamas wants the blockade to end.

Israel should just end it. It has nothing to do with any negotiations. What Israel is doing is a war crime. There is nothing Hamas has done that gives Israel the right to starve Gazan children.

Israel wants the rocket attacks on her citizenry to end and to no longer be targeted for destruction by Hamas.

Hamas should just end it and recognize Israel. It has nothing to do with negotiations. What Hamas is doing is a war crime and an example of waging aggressive war. There is nothing that Israel has done that gives Hamas the right penetrate her borders, attack her citizenry and refuse to call for her destruction.

That was easy.
 
Israel should just settle for the rockets to stop. **** this **** about recognizing Israel! Israel doesn't recognize the Palestinian's right to be left alone without interference. Israel doesn't recognize international law. And after turning Gaza into a virtual prison, Israel doesn't recognize humanity. Because you cannot collectively punish 1.5 million people over the actions of a few.

No, Billo, that doesn't cut it. Without the recognition, the Hamas intent to destroy Israel remains, as does the threat. Nothing less is acceptable.

If the Gazans want this to end, they are responsible for ending it. If they do not do something, the blood is on their hands.
 
15 dead in 8 years is not a threat to the IDF.
Sovereignty is an absolute. It is not dependent whatsoever on a kill ratio as you so disingenously suggest.
 
Sovereignty is an absolute. It is not dependent whatsoever on a kill ratio as you so disingenously suggest.

Absolutely. Even one dead in respect to violating a county's sovereign borders is unacceptable.
 
I'm not saying that at all. Where did I say those rockets were okay? Show me the post where I said that?
The blockade has been going on for 18 months. Ever since Hamas was elected.

It was lifted briefly, and when it was, Hamas used it to smuggle in arms. BTW, Egypt has the same blockade on. Why isn't THAT a war crime?

I don't care if Israel stays or goes from Gaza. The just can't target civilian infrastructure that is not part of the hostilities.

If Hamas uses civilian infrastructure to hide munitions, they very much ARE part of the hostilities.

Israel refused to lift the blockade, that's why they said no. They shouldn't even have to say no. The blockade is illegal.

They said no because they were not consulted AND they also refuse the proposal to station international troops on the border to enforce the provisions of the cease fire - something Israel supports. The blockade is NOT illegal.

There are no arms in Gaza that threaten Israeli security. 15 dead in 8 years is not a threat to the IDF.

One INJURED is justification enough for Israel to enact its inherent right to protect its citizens.
 
Like I said, you'll excuse anything they do.

Read the link instead of asking me questions.

I won't excuse ANYTHING they do, but I have no reason to condemn this action. They have the right to protect their citizens and to root out the source of aggression. Hamas committed an act of war. Israel is calling them on it.
 
I won't excuse ANYTHING they do, but I have no reason to condemn this action. They have the right to protect their citizens and to root out the source of aggression. Hamas committed an act of war. Israel is calling them on it.
You got that backwards. Israel committed the act of war when they started the economic blockade just after Hamas got elected.

As far as not excusing anything they do, it's nice to see that you draw the line somewhere.
 
Israel wants the rocket attacks on her citizenry to end and to no longer be targeted for destruction by Hamas.

Hamas should just end it and recognize Israel. It has nothing to do with negotiations. What Hamas is doing is a war crime and an example of waging aggressive war. There is nothing that Israel has done that gives Hamas the right penetrate her borders, attack her citizenry and refuse to call for her destruction.

That was easy.
It sure was. I agree with every word. Just because I'm ripping Israel a new one, does not mean I'm absolving Hamas of their crimes.

My position is simple: THEY'RE BOTH GUILTY!
 
You got that backwards. Israel committed the act of war when they started the economic blockade just after Hamas got elected.

As far as not excusing anything they do, it's nice to see that you draw the line somewhere.

The blockade was to ensure that Hamas does not get hold of dangerous weapons to use against Israel.

You will note that UNSC Resolution 1860 RESTATES the need to prevent Hamas from getting its hands on illicit weapons, but Hamas refuses this resolution. Israel MUST do what it can to prevent this. It supports the proposal to put international troops on the border to enforce terms like this, but Hamas refuses. Who is to blame? Obviously, it is Hamas.
 
The blockade was to ensure that Hamas does not get hold of dangerous weapons to use against Israel.

You will note that UNSC Resolution 1860 RESTATES the need to prevent Hamas from getting its hands on illicit weapons, but Hamas refuses this resolution. Israel MUST do what it can to prevent this. It supports the proposal to put international troops on the border to enforce terms like this, but Hamas refuses. Who is to blame? Obviously, it is Hamas.
There is nothing Hamas has done that gives Israel the right to collectively punish 1.5 million people. If you can't see how wrong it is to punish people that have committed no crime and done nothing to you, then there's nothing I can say to make you realize this.
 
Sovereignty is an absolute. It is not dependent whatsoever on a kill ratio as you so disingenously suggest.

That is a key point, Tashah. Unfortunately, many of Israel's critics fail to understand or recognize that any attacks on a sovereign state's citizens is a violation of that state's sovereignty. Furthermore, had Hamas and others not been engaging in acts of terrorism, there would be no kill ratio, as Israel would have no need to respond militarily in self-defense.
 
Both Israel and Hamas rejected the ceasefire proposal.

The UNSC Res. 1860 was practically worthless for Israel. It was long on atmospherics, and woefully short on content. It failed to provide for Israel's security needs, all but leaving the issue in Hamas' hands. It provided no enforcement machinery for ending weapons and money smuggling by Hamas. It contained no provisions reaffirming the Madrid Quartet's terms with respect to Hamas (recognition of Israel, abandoning violence, respecting existing diplomatic agreements), even as it invoked earlier initiatives such as the Arab peace initiative. It provided no mechanisms for bringing about the Madrid Quartet's terms. It did not mention Cpl. Shalit who remains a hostage.

All in all, the resolution was highly unbalanced. In my opinion, it was little more than cheap theater to create an illusion of seeking to end violence. In its practical implications, it could only have strengthened the Hamas terrorist organization given that it failed to address Israel's security needs, provided no mechanisms for ending weapons/money smuggling, etc.
 
Oh I get it.

The Palestinian's kill their own children, then hang on to the carcass and wait for an Israeli air-strike, then run over and place their dead relatives under the rubble and wait for the media to report the casualties.

Yeah, that's reasonable.

Yes, that almost exactly describes it.

And your recitation shows just how well you know it is true.

And NO!

That is NOT reasonable for them to do at all.
 
The UNSC Res. 1860 was practically worthless for Israel.

What else is new. Currently the United Nations is in a lose-lose situation. If they actually man up and form an intervention they would lose credibility because they would seem to be favoring one side, while punishing the other. If they do nothing, then we shout and scream and cry and wonder why they even exist.
Either way the UN's ineffectiveness will be pointed out. It totally needs a make over, and I am in favoring of giving the ultimate referees position.
 
It sure was. I agree with every word. Just because I'm ripping Israel a new one, does not mean I'm absolving Hamas of their crimes.

My position is simple: THEY'RE BOTH GUILTY!

I understand your position and your motivation, Billo. You know that I always have. Israel has some culpability in this and I do not always agree with what they do. Where we differ and where I doubt that we will see eye to eye is that it is Hamas' and the Palestinians' responsibly to fix this; they need to make the first move by retracting what is in their Charter, denouncing and ceasing the rocket attacks, and all other attacks, and starting to round up and arrest all those who refuse to comply with this. THIS is their responsibility, and the FIRST responsibility in this issue. Everything leads from this, and until these things happen, Israel should not negotiate or lessen their pressure. It is about heir survival, Billo, and the the destruction happening in Gaza, though unfortunate, is completely on Hamas for their failure to do the things that will end this. Once they do these things, Israel must share in the concessions. Until then, Gazan blood is on the hands of Hamas.
 
There is nothing Hamas has done that gives Israel the right to collectively punish 1.5 million people. If you can't see how wrong it is to punish people that have committed no crime and done nothing to you, then there's nothing I can say to make you realize this.

And if you cannot see how Hamas has brought this on to their own people and that what is happening to that 1.5 million could be alleviated by a change in Hamas policy, then their is nothing I can say to you. Israel has a right to defend herself, and if those 1.5 million suffer as a response to that, then I suppose that Hamas should change their policy. It's on them.
 
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