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New report re-uses old data to target abstinence pledges {EDIT}

Re: Abstinence Pledges Ineffective....OH wait....

Actually, while Conservatives don't believe in abortion, they take a position that it is up to the states to decide, and none of the Federal government's damn business, one way or the other.

Not all conservatives don't believe in abortion. Goldwater for example felt it was a personal choice.
 
Re: Abstinence Pledges Ineffective....OH wait....

Actually, while Conservatives don't believe in abortion, they take a position that it is up to the states to decide, and none of the Federal government's damn business, one way or the other.

But MrVicchio's lean says he is "very conservative", so obviously he knows more than you do about conservatism. ;)
 
Re: Abstinence Pledges Ineffective....OH wait....

Actually, while Conservatives don't believe in abortion, they take a position that it is up to the states to decide, and none of the Federal government's damn business, one way or the other.

And why do they want the states to decide such things?

Is it because they know they cant win on such things on a national level.....

oh yea, states rights... sure...:roll:
 
Re: Abstinence Pledges Ineffective....OH wait....

And why do they want the states to decide such things?

Is it because they know they cant win on such things on a national level.....

oh yea, states rights... sure...:roll:

Oh yeah, **** the Constitution. It's like totally ghey. :roll:
 
Re: Abstinence Pledges Ineffective....OH wait....

And why do they want the states to decide such things?

Is it because they know they cant win on such things on a national level.....

oh yea, states rights... sure...:roll:

I'm pro-choice and I think it would be better left up to the states to decide. Federal authority = bad.
 
Re: Abstinence Pledges Ineffective....OH wait....

I'm pro-choice and I think it would be better left up to the states to decide. Federal authority = bad.

Do you think "it would be better left up to the states to decide" whether or not to abolish slavery, as well?
If not, then I see a fundamental dichotomy in your opinion.
 
Re: Abstinence Pledges Ineffective....OH wait....

Abstinence pledges are a shining monument of the idiocy, and, even more so of the impossibility of Holy Roller Christian Dogma.

What do you think a "holy roller" is?

We are such sinful, dirty creatures who need to be ashamed of ourselves. It's not enough that if you are born homosexual your desires are an abomination. If you are born human your desires are an abomination until you go through a magic ceremony. Oh, and the homosexuals aren't allowed to go through the ceremony, so they'll always be an abomination.

You are making a blanket statement that does not apply to all Christians. It would be similar to saying all Muslims want jihad against the world.

Homosexuality is indeed an abomination as is gluttony and others. Sin is sin, and in the NT it does not give levels of sin. A homosexual is just as guilty as an adulterer or glutton, of sin.

The problem is some Christians have forgotten that none of us are righteous and are commanded to love sinners anyway. We are not to ignore the sin but we are also not to persecute because of it. We are supposed to lead by example and not condemn the individual. "He who is without sin throw the first stone."

So you are talking in generalities. Christian churches exist that do accept homosexuals etc.

These poor kids born and raised in Chrisitanity. Taught that they are by their very nature dirty and shameful. Thinking that human nature is a sin. Thinking that dogma is morality. It's no wonder the world is in such a sad, sorry state.

Maybe the Phelps family teaches that, most Christians do not.

The world is in such a sad state because we are human, and has little to do with religion in general. Religion has been used as a scape goat for our own failings for far to long.
 
Re: Abstinence Pledges Ineffective....OH wait....

Do you think "it would be better left up to the states to decide" whether or not to abolish slavery, as well?
If not, then I see a fundamental dichotomy in your opinion.

I am not defending Tucker, but yes it should have been. Slavery was on it's way out anyway. Granted the civil war did speed up thing by years.

I think the civil war did more to damage states rights than any other single act in our history. The Union was preserved and that was great, but at what cost?
 
Re: Abstinence Pledges Ineffective....OH wait....

Humans like to **** pretty simple.
 
Re: Abstinence Pledges Ineffective....OH wait....

Do you think "it would be better left up to the states to decide" whether or not to abolish slavery, as well?
If not, then I see a fundamental dichotomy in your opinion.

Slavery is different because the slaves were bound to remain where they were against their will. If they were allowed to leave, it wouldn't have been a problem.

Women are allowed to leave the state they reside in, whereas slaves were not.

That fundamental ability to make a choice is why any dichotomy is a false one.

Certain aspects of the civil rights movement, where choices were possible, are a different story.
 
Re: Abstinence Pledges Ineffective....OH wait....

Do you think "it would be better left up to the states to decide" whether or not to abolish slavery, as well?
If not, then I see a fundamental dichotomy in your opinion.
Slave trade debate was over whether or not black people were considered citizens and not property. Because of the slave trade compromise, the 3/5ths compromise, and a series of supreme court cases(Dred Scott), slaves were considered non-citizens and to be property, therefore it was legal to do whatever the owner wanted to do to them.

Heck, you could substitute "slave" for "fetus" and get what you have today. "fetus's are considered non-citizens and to be property, therefore, its legal to do whatever the mother wants to do to them".

Just thought you might want to know, bringing up "slavery" just hurts your argument, if it does anything at all.
 
Re: Abstinence Pledges Ineffective....OH wait....

Slave trade debate was over whether or not black people were considered citizens and not property. Because of the slave trade compromise, the 3/5ths compromise, and a series of supreme court cases(Dred Scott), slaves were considered non-citizens and to be property, therefore it was legal to do whatever the owner wanted to do to them.

Heck, you could substitute "slave" for "fetus" and get what you have today. "fetus's are considered non-citizens and to be property, therefore, its legal to do whatever the mother wants to do to them".

Just thought you might want to know, bringing up "slavery" just hurts your argument, if it does anything at all.

Why? I fully support the emancipation of fetuses.
 
Re: Abstinence Pledges Ineffective....OH wait....

Why? I fully support the emancipation of fetuses.
3 score and...what...7 years ago....?
 
Re: Abstinence Pledges Ineffective....OH wait....

:confused:
I can't even begin to comprehend how you made that logical leap. Please explain.

You have to go back to the original article, thread on it, and comments.

I would love to see the Obama Administration STOP funding the abstinence program. It doesn't work. Let's make this about teaching children about sexually transmitted diseases and preventing pregnancy.

According to the article:

The findings are reigniting the debate about the effectiveness of abstinence-focused sexual education just as Congress and the new Obama administration are about to reconsider the more than $176 million in annual funding for such programs.


So our federal tax dollars are going towards this worthless program.

And a whole thread laden with references about how we should eliminate abstinence only education programs. Now we find that in fact the study wasn't "from a large federal survey" but from 934 teenagers selectively plucked from that survey. When they start picking and choosing who they are going to use in the survey and who they will not use it's easy to skew the results the way you want the outcome. Like for example the exclusion of all the people that had pledged but gotten married.

The white elephant in the corner that makes me say they have been "duped" is this;
We don't know (for sure) what kind of sex education these teenagers were receiving. It's not stated in the article. Unless they were receiving abstinence only education it's no basis for eliminating the program as was widely lauded based on the original article.

one last tidbit.
The original study took information from students in 1995, 1996, and 2001.
Federal AO programs didn't get signed into law until 1996.
 
Re: Abstinence Pledges Ineffective....OH wait....

News Headlines - New report re-uses old data to target abstinence pledges : Townhall.com



It seems the study compared a group of religious teens that took the pledge to religious teens that didn't. Religious teens from religious families have been found to have less premarital sex than other teens.

To the ones using this study to justify Sex ed training in schools...You've been duped.
Erin Roach is the ball peen hammer in the tool shed.
This isn't the stupidest thing I have ever read, but damn, it is very stupid.
 
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Re: Abstinence Pledges Ineffective....OH wait....

What does abortion have to do with pregnancy rate? If someone gets an abortion they were still pregnant :doh

you know, when I was in school in the midwest I saw a lot more teen pregnancies than I'm used to seeing in california, and high schools had daycares and things which I thought was weird. but another thing I noticed was that many people got married REALLY young just for the heck of it, and so those teen mothers at least shouldn't really count, seeing as how they did it on purpose or at least were in a situation where they could deal with it.

I'm guessing he mentioned the abortion rate to show that not all teen pregnancies are unwanted. I think the abortion rate, while it is also skewed because of the availability and social acceptance of abortion differing between areas, can give some indication of which teens want babies or are in a position to handle an unexpected pregnancy, versus which teens aren't able to handle the added financial/emotional burden. higher abortion rates in an area could indicate that teen pregnancy is more of a problem that needs addressing in that area. I guess what I'm driving at is that the specific cases of teen pregnancy I saw in the midwest that weren't planned just meant that the whole extended family was going to help out. maybe in urban areas, which tend to go blue, that supportive infrastructure isn't there so teen pregnancy is a more urgent issue.
 
Re: Abstinence Pledges Ineffective....OH wait....

No, it's because.. GASP! Conservatives would rather a baby born then a baby killed.

Then you should support sex education and contraception instead of demonizing it, so that there are fewer abortions. But like most conservatives, you're only against abortion when it's politically convenient and you aren't caught offguard.

MrVicchio said:
PREFER that children not have sex out of wedlock as well but we take what we can get.

Really. Did YOU wait until marriage? No? Then don't be a hypocrite.
 
Why are we ignoring all the studies that say abstinence education does work? That abstinence pledges do work?

Why are we ignoring the success of abstinence education programs in Africa fighting the spread of AIDS?

The idea that teaching your children to abstain from sex till they are married would somehow make them more likely to have sex before marriage is loony. The teens not having premarital sex are the ones who were taught to wait till they are married. They are also the ones with no STDs.
 
This study only shows that abstinence pledges don't work, not that abstinence only education doesn't work.

As to the notion that comparing all those who didn't take the pledge to those who did would be of greater informative value than breaking them down by demographic and then comparing... well, I'll just say I'd feel better informed by the latter. I'd want to see what kind of difference the pledge makes, and that would be impossible to determine from comparing apples(religious kids) and oranges(non-religious kids).
 
Re: Abstinence Pledges Ineffective....OH wait....

How do we know they were telling the truth?

How do we know the teens who voted for having sex are telling the truth?:2razz:

The machismo mentality still exists, especially among teen males. They will falsely admit that Rosie Odonnel is hot, before they'd admit to being a virgin. Lies and truth could go both ways, even though the motivations are different.
 
Re: Abstinence Pledges Ineffective....OH wait....

How do we know the teens who voted for having sex are telling the truth?:2razz:

The machismo mentality still exists, especially among teen males. They will falsely admit that Rosie Odonnel is hot, before they'd admit to being a virgin. Lies and truth could go both ways, even though the motivations are different.

I could see kids could be intimidated by authoritarian oaths and would be afraid of repurcussions if the polling wasn't private or anonymous.

I laugh when they think they can gauge teen drug use. Do they poll these kids in between sessions of walking the drug dog down the hallway?
 
Re: Abstinence Pledges Ineffective....OH wait....

You know, I would like to know exactly what we are arguing here. Abstinence pledges, or abstinence-only education? Because these are completely different ideas(sort of like abiogenesis and evolution, lawl). I attended abstinence education in Texas and, there were none of these "pledges" anywhere. The first time I ever heard of "abstinence pledges" was on that one episode on CSI.
 
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