Private job losses mount, ominous for payrolls

Blackdog said:

Worse than the great depression? That is laughable.

In the end it has to collapse? Do you know anything about economics at all or are you just assuming with no real information?

Click to expand...

My official economic studies are limited, only a few years. But since I ended school I have studied economics greatly, its one of my main areas of interests. I read economic statistics for snacks, and 250 page economic analyzes as entertainment. I think I know what I am talking about.

I am not saying that this financial crisis will definetely be far worse than the great depression, or that what we are seeing now is the eventual economic meltdown that WILL come as a result of major parts of the economy being based around speculation and unsustainable economic activity. A collapse now will not be of the same character at all as the great depression, it will be completely different, and severe in perhaps other ways, so comparing to the great depression 8 decades ago is just the completely wrong way of thinking of this. The end conclusion is in all ways of looking at it that our economies are unstable, unsustainable highly speculative capitalist economies which cannot go on the same way they have been. Any future economy have to be based around REAL growth, fundamental change, sustainable and well planned progress, long term changes and so on. I think the potential for growth for the economies of individuals are almost completely tapped, we now have to focus on the economy of nations, states and the world. We cannot have economies that CAN collapse, if you understand, we have to build economies that CANNOT collapse.

Blackdog said:

We are not a democracy, we are a representative republic. France is a democracy, the EU is a form of democracy.

Click to expand...

Yes, you are a functioning democracy. France also yes. Most European countries are. But France is in the same general area of democratic collapse as the US and the UK, while others are lagging behind in "public retardation and political irrelevancy"

Blackdog said:

According to who? You?

Click to expand...

According to statistics, economic evalutations, news, the dollar, the Euro, the pound(especially) and so on.

Maximus Zeebra said:

My official economic studies are limited, only a few years. But since I ended school I have studied economics greatly, its one of my main areas of interests. I read economic statistics for snacks, and 250 page economic analyzes as entertainment. I think I know what I am talking about.

Click to expand...

Then instead of speculation you need to post evidence. Otherwise it is nothing but lip service.

Maximus Zeebra said:

I am not saying that this financial crisis will definetely be far worse than the great depression, or that what we are seeing now is the eventual economic meltdown that WILL come as a result of major parts of the economy being based around speculation and unsustainable economic activity.

Click to expand...

You sort of did. After I posted the list of recessions and depressions over the last 200+ years. One that lasted 23 years I mite add. Your first comment out of the box was "But this time its just worse." with no evidence to back it up at all.

Then you go on to state "IT just doesnt work out like it should. Focus is too much on profits and too little on progress and which things are actually useful for the society. In the end capitalism always have to collapse and fall apart." Now you say you were not saying this?

Capitalism has yet to fall apart on any scale. As I have conclusively shown it does go up and down. It is the nature of the beast and unlike your comment "Focus is too much on profits and too little on progress" is absolutely not true. Progress is indeed driven by the market. Without it no market will exist.

Maximus Zeebra said:

A collapse now will not be of the same character at all as the great depression, it will be completely different, and severe in perhaps other ways, so comparing to the great depression 8 decades ago is just the completely wrong way of thinking of this.

Click to expand...

That would depend greatly on what your definition of "economic collapse" is.

You again are offering speculation backed up only by your opinion.

Maximus Zeebra said:

The end conclusion is in all ways of looking at it that our economies are unstable, unsustainable highly speculative capitalist economies which cannot go on the same way they have been.

Click to expand...

Show me a stable economy and I will show you fantasy land. It has never happened. Look at your world history. A stable economy can and does happen for a time and then a period of instability sets in, ALWAYS. This is not speculation but economics 101.

Since your end conclusion (is again) backed up by no evidence, why should I even consider it viable?

Maximus Zeebra said:

Any future economy have to be based around REAL growth, fundamental change, sustainable and well planned progress, long term changes and so on. I think the potential for growth for the economies of individuals are almost completely tapped, we now have to focus on the economy of nations, states and the world. We cannot have economies that CAN collapse, if you understand, we have to build economies that CANNOT collapse.

Click to expand...

Well what is your plan? Great minds in history and today have yet to come up with anything that has been more successful than good old capitalism. I am dying to hear your plan?

Maximus Zeebra said:

Yes, you are a functioning democracy. France also yes. Most European countries are. But France is in the same general area of democratic collapse as the US and the UK, while others are lagging behind in "public retardation and political irrelevancy"

Click to expand...

Democratic collapse! Thats a new one.

Who are the "others" of which you speak?

Maximus Zeebra said:

According to statistics, economic evalutations, news, the dollar, the Euro, the pound(especially) and so on.

Click to expand...

Well where are the "statistics" so I can take a look at them?

Blackdog said:

Then instead of speculation you need to post evidence. Otherwise it is nothing but lip service.

You sort of did. After I posted the list of recessions and depressions over the last 200+ years. One that lasted 23 years I mite add. Your first comment out of the box was "But this time its just worse." with no evidence to back it up at all.

Then you go on to state "IT just doesnt work out like it should. Focus is too much on profits and too little on progress and which things are actually useful for the society. In the end capitalism always have to collapse and fall apart." Now you say you were not saying this?

Capitalism has yet to fall apart on any scale. As I have conclusively shown it does go up and down. It is the nature of the beast and unlike your comment "Focus is too much on profits and too little on progress" is absolutely not true. Progress is indeed driven by the market. Without it no market will exist.

That would depend greatly on what your definition of "economic collapse" is.

You again are offering speculation backed up only by your opinion.

Click to expand...

I already said in a post to another, that its a HUGE topic that I do not know if I care to debate, especially it doesnt fit in this thread, perhaps I will debate it in another thread, some day soon. Its just a massive topic, I hope you understand.
But know this, we are in 2009, we have developed far enough to build models that are focused around stability and sustainability, but all parts of the society would have to change for that to be possible, especially politics and economics(or capitalism and democracy).. I am not saying that we should toss away capitalism alltogether, but we need to completely rebuild it, nor am I saying democracy needs to be tossed away alltogether, but we need to completely rebuild that and governance as we know it today as well.

Blackdog said:

Show me a stable economy and I will show you fantasy land. It has never happened. Look at your world history. A stable economy can and does happen for a time and then a period of instability sets in, ALWAYS. This is not speculation but economics 101.

Since your end conclusion (is again) backed up by no evidence, why should I even consider it viable?

Well what is your plan? Great minds in history and today have yet to come up with anything that has been more successful than good old capitalism. I am dying to hear your plan?

Click to expand...

As I said, HUGE massive topic. But thinking in the long term and making the society function in a long term basis rather than just short burst of governance, economics and short lived joys, would be a good start and a huge part of any plan to stabilize our societies.

Blackdog said:

Democratic collapse! Thats a new one.

Who are the "others" of which you speak?

Click to expand...

All the other democracies I didn't mention.

Blackdog said:

Well where are the "statistics" so I can take a look at them?

Click to expand...

All over the place, in magazines like the economist, papers like FT, online...
Just by following news online every day for decades you will be provided tons of statistical information, if that not enough, then you have these...

EUROPA - Eurostat - Home page
Economic Statistics
The 2009 Statistical Abstract
U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics


Those sources are the ones I use the most. Feel free to have a look. I use tons of other sources as well.. :mrgreen:

You really did not address most of what I posted, but I understand the huge and multiple facets of this talk.

As for your "plan" I am willing to bet it is more socialism, a proven failure in the long run.

Maximus Zeebra said:

Then I suggest you start reading my posts. I would say 5% of them is real anti Americanism(criticism of attitudes and nation without reason), then an additional 15% perhaps could be conceived as anti American even though they arent. Then an additional 20% arent anti American at all, and could only be conceived as anti-Americans by people who is seeking to brand everything that isnt 100% positive about America as "anti-American". The remaning 60% doesnt really have anything to do with America in general, and most of those doesnt even mention America.

Click to expand...

Here's the dilio, Maximus . . .

I actually happen to agree that the US suffers from internal rot, and it's getting worse.

But it's the same rot which metastasized in Europe long before it was widespread here (and, by the way, it's reflected in just about everything having to do with the EU). It's only the United States supporting Europe economically, medically, culturally, and militarily which has allowed it to limp along for this long. If you doubt this, then you are in a sublime level of denial.

We may well collapse from that rot. But if we do, the rest of of what's left of Western culture will as well, and the barbarians will rule. It will not be the first time it happened in history.

So, be careful what you wish for. :roll:

Blackdog said:

You really did not address most of what I posted, but I understand the huge and multiple facets of this talk.

As for your "plan" I am willing to bet it is more socialism, a proven failure in the long run.

Click to expand...

Nah, socialism is most likely the reason why European economies are so resilient even when the US and the UK is collapsing. Higher general state spending, more generous welfare and layoff programs and so on stimulates the economy in times of trouble. This is part of the reason why Europe is more stable, alongside other more obvious reasons such as fiscal responsibility.

As for socialism, Europe has proven that a socialis-capitalist economy functions greatly. We now just need to add "state prestige programs" similar to those of communism into the mix, to build a future capitalist system that will forever hold strong and be stable.
Capitalism alone is fragile like a house of card in a breeze. But we all know a breeze is not the strongest type of wind, do we not?

Harshaw said:

Here's the dilio, Maximus . . .

I actually happen to agree that the US suffers from internal rot, and it's getting worse.

But it's the same rot which metastasized in Europe long before it was widespread here (and, by the way, it's reflected in just about everything having to do with the EU). It's only the United States supporting Europe economically, medically, culturally, and militarily which has allowed it to limp along for this long. If you doubt this, then you are in a sublime level of denial.

We may well collapse from that rot. But if we do, the rest of of what's left of Western culture will as well, and the barbarians will rule. It will not be the first time it happened in history.

So, be careful what you wish for. :roll:

Click to expand...

:2funny:

Thats about the funniest and most unfactual thing I have ever heard.. The European economy is bigger than the US, our industry is bigger, our manufacturing base and our exports.. What makes you believe that the reality is not that we are totally dependent on each other, rather than "United States supporting Europe economically, medically, culturally, and militarily".. I could also add that we have a similar sized chemical and pharmaceutical industry, and a total military capability which is second in the world only to the US..

I think you are delusional.. The EU is what is actually removing the rot from Europe, there is no such thing in the US, you just keep rottening. But I agree, the problem is with the western models of capitalism and democracy, which both are rotting the most, and thats not just an American problem, but also a European problem, just slightly less since we are less capitalistic, more state planned and more socialistic.

The EU is the most flexible, modern and adaptive type of government there is, the Chinese government lands a good second place, while European national governments and the US falls further and further down the list.

Maximus Zeebra said:

The EU is the most flexible, modern and adaptive type of government there is, the Chinese government lands a good second place . . .

Click to expand...

WOW. I think that's all we need to know about where you're coming from.

:rofl :rofl

Harshaw said:

WOW. I think that's all we need to know about where you're coming from.

:rofl :rofl

Click to expand...

Do you not agree that the EU is not the most modern form of government there is? Its currently developing, while for example the US government is stagnant in lack of reform and old traditions, alongside most national governments in Europe.

In Norway we do not obey much to the EU government at all, yet our society is the most under performing and unambitious in the western world. Yes, we have oil money, and yes it makes us rich, yet compared to potential Norway is the western country which fares worst of all, and I personally blame a government with lack of progress, stuck in traditions and now having become a circus democracy, this government is doing us no good at all. We could build a nation for the future, yet we are stuck in actual stagnation in most ways. Look at our oil brothers in the Arab Emirates for a completely opposite type of governance, yes it is not democratic, but its far better governed than Norway, far more ambitious and having far more progress and development than us, they are building a nation for the future, we are stuck in traditions and sinking in democracy and amateur governance, ruled by morons.

Maximus Zeebra said:

Do you not agree that the EU is not the most modern form of government there is? Its currently developing, while for example the US government is stagnant in lack of reform and old traditions, alongside most national governments in Europe.

In Norway we do not obey much to the EU government at all, yet our society is the most under performing and unambitious in the western world. Yes, we have oil money, and yes it makes us rich, yet compared to potential Norway is the western country which fares worst of all, and I personally blame a government with lack of progress, stuck in traditions and now having become a circus democracy, this government is doing us no good at all. We could build a nation for the future, yet we are stuck in actual stagnation in most ways. Look at our oil brothers in the Arab Emirates for a completely opposite type of governance, yes it is not democratic, but its far better governed than Norway, far more ambitious and having far more progress and development than us, they are building a nation for the future, we are stuck in traditions and sinking in democracy and amateur governance, ruled by morons.

Click to expand...

You just, to the letter, described, justified, and praised the fascist movements and governments of the 1920s and '30s, and in fact used the exact language of their propaganda and the rhetoric of their fervent supporters.

If that's what you want us to follow, then indeed, there is no reason to listen to you. :roll:

Harshaw said:

You just, to the letter, described, justified, and praised the fascist movements and governments of the 1920s and '30s, and in fact used the exact language of their propaganda and the rhetoric of their fervent supporters.

If that's what you want us to follow, then indeed, there is no reason to listen to you. :roll:

Click to expand...

Yet we live in 2009, and I draw my opinions from ALL current and past models.. I like to refer to myself as one who collects the best from everywhere and largely complains about the worst and want to get rid of that.

We need hybrid models.

Maximus Zeebra said:

Yet we live in 2009, and I draw my opinions from ALL current and past models.. I like to refer to myself as one who collects the best from everywhere and largely complains about the worst and want to get rid of that.

We need hybrid models.

Click to expand...

Yeah. And the people who said that in the 20th century slaughtered 150 million people, not even counting the wars.

Harshaw said:

Yeah. And the people who said that in the 20th century slaughtered 150 million people, not even counting the wars.

Click to expand...

Well, Hitler actually did some good things as well. He rebuilt the economy of Germany from the brink of collapse, and built the worlds best infrastructure.

I am saying its actually possible to do all those things without killing 150 million people, you believe its not. How absurd.

Maximus Zeebra said:

Well, Hitler actually did some good things as well. He rebuilt the economy of Germany from the brink of collapse, and built the worlds best infrastructure.

I am saying its actually possible to do all those things without killing 150 million people, you believe its not. How absurd.

Click to expand...

Yes. You're saying that there can cuddly, fuzzy fascism.

Harshaw said:

Yes. You're saying that there can cuddly, fuzzy fascism.

Click to expand...

Not really.. I dont want fascism at all. I want hybrid models for politics and economics of nations which draws the best traits from each model.

This just in: the economy currently sucks. Thanks Maximus!

The OP wasn't to discuss an ecnomic analysis, it was to point the finger and talk about how better the EU is. The EU has its own problems and it's not a perfect system. Just wait until Turkey joins!

Maximus Zeebra said:

Not really.. I dont want fascism at all. I want hybrid models for politics and economics of nations which draws the best traits from each model.

Click to expand...

Right. Never mind that the conditions which allow the "best traits" are often contradictory and mutually exclusive. "Efficiency," for example, comes from a lack of deliberation and an abundance of central autocracy, both of which are antithetical to freedom and choice.

Of course, as you cite China and the EU as your top models, that probably doesn't concern you much. Besides, letting people decide too much for themselves about their lives only leads to the kinds of problems we have today, right? Best to leave that kind of decision-making to the people who know best, no?

You wouldn't be the first to think you can create a kinder, gentler fascism; you won't be the last, and it's certain that more blood will one day be spilled defeating yet another attempt, which will inevitably go the same way all the others have.

And it will probably have originated in the mind of a bored Euro who disdains the bourgeois, as it always does. Hmmm.

But I know . . . you have it all figured out, right? You know how to make it "work," right? This time, I'm SURE, it'll be different. :roll:

Orius said:

This just in: the economy currently sucks. Thanks Maximus!

The OP wasn't to discuss an ecnomic analysis, it was to point the finger and talk about how better the EU is. The EU has its own problems and it's not a perfect system. Just wait until Turkey joins!

Click to expand...

Did I ever say it was? Its not perfect at all, its pretty much imperfect like the US, but its slightly better though, because its more diverse, and not so singular and extreme by nature.

The economy doesn't currently suck, the meltdown is currently strongly underestimated and handled in the wrong way, sure it sucks right now, but if it keeps being handled in the wrong way, then it will completely collapse, and there will be no economy left. When there is no economy left and the desperation will get to great, people tend to lean towards extremism, and in the US there is growing extremism and polarization, huge political gaps, a broken political system and a people who will get angry at the politicians for ruining their country. In the end such discontempt, and an economic collapse which goes to far could be very dangerous, especially considering the extreme political climate in the US. I am worried about the consequences, I dont want the US to create a third world war, but the alternative of civil war, doesnt sound so attractive either.

Harshaw said:

Right. Never mind that the conditions which allow the "best traits" are often contradictory and mutually exclusive. "Efficiency," for example, comes from a lack of deliberation and an abundance of central autocracy, both of which are antithetical to freedom and choice.

Of course, as you cite China and the EU as your top models, that probably doesn't concern you much. Besides, letting people decide too much for themselves about their lives only leads to the kinds of problems we have today, right? Best to leave that kind of decision-making to the people who know best, no?

You wouldn't be the first to think you can create a kinder, gentler fascism; you won't be the last, and it's certain that more blood will one day be spilled defeating yet another attempt, which will inevitably go the same way all the others have.

And it will probably have originated in the mind of a bored Euro who disdains the bourgeois, as it always does. Hmmm.

But I know . . . you have it all figured out, right? You know how to make it "work," right? This time, I'm SURE, it'll be different. :roll:

Click to expand...

Whats most important, efficiency or stability? I would say stability.. I would easily donate a few thousand per capita GDP to know that we would always have stable growth.
You talk about freedom, yet there is no freedom about democracy, its a sham model which claims it empowers the people, it clearly does not, especially not in a two party democracy, nor in a two sided, multi party democracy, which most European democracies are turning into.
Freedom is freedom of speech and freedom to take your own actions and decide your own life, that is one of the things that would be kept. But retard democratic government with a bunch of average fools with no ambitions that only mismanages the country and the economy, that should be a thing of the past, that I do not want.
Only short term profit focus, no, that is uneccessary, but it can still exist in a more planned economy, which is built around sustainability and stability and focuses on avoiding booms and busts.

You simply just dont understanding anything other than "what is", and you like everyone else is just to damn ready to accept even the most stinky model, just because it doesnt suck completely. Your current model is unstable, dangerous, politicians are dumb average people, people are stupidifed by the political process, your country and economy is greatly mismanaged, yet you do not care, yet you do not want political and economical reform, you just scream and wave "democracy and more power to the free market(companies)"...

Maximus Zeebra said:

Did I ever say it was? Its not perfect at all, its pretty much imperfect like the US, but its slightly better though, because its more diverse, and not so singular and extreme by nature.

Click to expand...

Each has their pros and cons... neither is generally "better". I would also argue that in an increasingly globalized world, the risk is now distributed globally... so the cons of one region becomes the cons of all. Same with the pros. Your "us vs. them" mentally indicates a separation that, frankly, is becoming less apparent.

I don't know if you purposefully do it or not, but your posts have an anti-American ring to them that does not inspire people to take your side, even if you are right. You can analyze economy without the need to refer your opinion about which country is more superior.

Maximus Zeebra said:

The economy doesn't currently suck, the meltdown is currently strongly underestimated and handled in the wrong way, sure it sucks right now, but if it keeps being handled in the wrong way, then it will completely collapse, and there will be no economy left.

Click to expand...

Who is underestimating it? Given that major economies like the U.S., Britain, and Japan are now in full recession, I think everyone is concerned. The economy is not about to completely disappear. Even if the worst case scenario happened - a depression - solutions would be sought.

Maximus Zeebra said:

When there is no economy left and the desperation will get to great, people tend to lean towards extremism, and in the US there is growing extremism and polarization, huge political gaps, a broken political system and a people who will get angry at the politicians for ruining their country. In the end such discontempt, and an economic collapse which goes to far could be very dangerous, especially considering the extreme political climate in the US. I am worried about the consequences, I dont want the US to create a third world war, but the alternative of civil war, doesnt sound so attractive either.

Click to expand...

Speaking of extreme.

I agree that if the economies of certain nations tank and enter a depression, then people will get more poor and more desperate, but that's not why the U.S. is polarized at the moment. The sociocultural polarization of America has been going on for a long time and is partly the product of a growing culture war. The past 8 years have increased the phenomenon, but the current recession is something new. Even in prosperous times, there were tensions.

As for a third world war or a second American civil war, I have no idea what you are basing that upon. Crappy economy or not, no one is going to forget what mutually assured destruction means.

Though, I do consider the possibility that rough economic times will bring more military campaigns, especially from the nations that have conservative leaderships. Desperate times tend to cause right-wing leaning governments to incite wars in order to win support and distract from the homefront, but things would have to get really bad before that happens.

Orius said:

Each has their pros and cons... neither is generally "better". I would also argue that in an increasingly globalized world, the risk is now distributed globally... so the cons of one region becomes the cons of all. Same with the pros. Your "us vs. them" mentally indicates a separation that, frankly, is becoming less apparent.

I don't know if you purposefully do it or not, but your posts have an anti-American ring to them that does not inspire people to take your side, even if you are right. You can analyze economy without the need to refer your opinion about which country is more superior.



Who is underestimating it? Given that major economies like the U.S., Britain, and Japan are now in full recession, I think everyone is concerned. The economy is not about to completely disappear. Even if the worst case scenario happened - a depression - solutions would be sought.



Speaking of extreme.

I agree that if the economies of certain nations tank and enter a depression, then people will get more poor and more desperate, but that's not why the U.S. is polarized at the moment. The sociocultural polarization of America has been going on for a long time and is partly the product of a growing culture war. The past 8 years have increased the phenomenon, but the current recession is something new. Even in prosperous times, there were tensions.

As for a third world war or a second American civil war, I have no idea what you are basing that upon. Crappy economy or not, no one is going to forget what mutually assured destruction means.

Though, I do consider the possibility that rough economic times will bring more military campaigns, especially from the nations that have conservative leaderships. Desperate times tend to cause right-wing leaning governments to incite wars in order to win support and distract from the homefront, but things would have to get really bad before that happens.

Click to expand...

As I said, even YOU are underestimating the "recession".. The problem this time is not the economy itself, but the structures, both political and economic structures are collapsing at the same time..

If you asked anyone a few years in a depression would ever be possible in the capitalistic world in 2006 or beyond, most people would say no, but its happening, and its happening for completely different reasons than we think, our outlooks on the economy are to single focused on the past, and grouping and putting things into categories and so on. This collapse isnt because of the house loans or anything, its because of a loss of faith in the capitalistic system, and until now, this have unrolled rather slow, but when all the dark secretes of capitalism is slowly revealed it can only go one way. Unless we reform both our economic structure and system and our political equivalent, then there is going to be no talk of depression, but rather collapse. The danger is the same in Europe, but its unfolding slower, because socialism and stability is partly rescuing us, but the underlaying problems are just about the same as in the US, just not so visible.

Btw, I never said polarization and extremism is related to or a consequence of the economic collapse. I was just mentioning it because an economic collapse in a situation with such realities will be far worse than an economic collapse in a stable and non extreme, non polarized political environment.

Maximus Zeebra said:

Whats most important, efficiency or stability? I would say stability.. I would easily donate a few thousand per capita GDP to know that we would always have stable growth.
You talk about freedom, yet there is no freedom about democracy, its a sham model which claims it empowers the people, it clearly does not, especially not in a two party democracy, nor in a two sided, multi party democracy, which most European democracies are turning into.
Freedom is freedom of speech and freedom to take your own actions and decide your own life, that is one of the things that would be kept. But retard democratic government with a bunch of average fools with no ambitions that only mismanages the country and the economy, that should be a thing of the past, that I do not want.
Only short term profit focus, no, that is uneccessary, but it can still exist in a more planned economy, which is built around sustainability and stability and focuses on avoiding booms and busts.

You simply just dont understanding anything other than "what is", and you like everyone else is just to damn ready to accept even the most stinky model, just because it doesnt suck completely. Your current model is unstable, dangerous, politicians are dumb average people, people are stupidifed by the political process, your country and economy is greatly mismanaged, yet you do not care, yet you do not want political and economical reform, you just scream and wave "democracy and more power to the free market(companies)"...

Click to expand...

And again, you speak the exact language of the fascists.

And you make broad assumptions about what we know or don't know or do or don't care about based on nothing but your fascist fantasies. I, however, have your own copious words to draw from.

Harshaw said:

And again, you speak the exact language of the fascists.

And you make broad assumptions about what we know or don't know or do or don't care about based on nothing but your fascist fantasies. I, however, have your own copious words to draw from.

Click to expand...

wikipedia said:

Fascism is an authoritarian nationalist ideology focused on solving economic, political, and social problems that its supporters see as causing national decline or decadence. Fascist governments typically seek to prepare a nation for armed conflict with other nations, to defend itself or to expand its state to allow for the growth of a nation. Fascists aim to create a single-party state in which the government is led by a dictator who seeks unity by requiring individuals to subordinate self-interest to the collective interest of of the nation or a race.

Fascist movements commonly oppose: communism, conservatism, democracy, individualism, internationalism, laissez-faire capitalism, liberalism, and pacifism. In addition to explicit opposition to these ideologies and systems, fascist governments permanently forbid and suppress all criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement.

Click to expand...

I am anti-nationalist, anti-authoritarian, but pro hybrid and intelligent governance.. What has that got to do with fascism?

If you're not willing to own the label, don't speak the language. But no matter what you call it, it is what it is.

What's incontrovertible is that yours is the mindset from which fascism and its intellectual cousins all spring.

"Anti-authoritarian." :roll: Indeed. Perhaps you should delve into your beloved EU and China a little more deeply with a little more thoughtfulness.

Harshaw said:

If you're not willing to own the label, don't speak the language. But no matter what you call it, it is what it is.

What's incontrovertible is that yours is the mindset from which fascism and its intellectual cousins all spring.

"Anti-authoritarian." :roll: Indeed. Perhaps you should delve into your beloved EU and China a little more deeply with a little more thoughtfulness.

Click to expand...

Beloved EU? Who every said i loved the EU? I just find it the most modern of any governments in the world. Its also full of flaws, but certainly not authoritarian...

Yes, and I always said that. To adopt the best of each model, including fascism..

I am anti-authoritarian, pro-freedoms, anti-nationalism, pro-regulations, but anti-strong government involvement(pro "set terms", for society to work around, like for example permanent flat tax rate, permanent interest rates and so on), i am anti media+politics, pro equal opportunities, and yes, I am pro a one party system where everyone works FOR the nation and the PEOPLE, rather than a two sided system that works against each others. I want different government institutions and politics, I want to make politics incorruptible and every politician independent of groupings, I also want more elites in politics, and less average fools..
I want separation of media and politics, and surveillance of every part of the political process, I also want separation of corporations and politics, by making lobbying and such illegal.

I havent explained to you even 1/100th of my beliefs, so your claims that I am fascist I take with a pinch of salt on my fried eggs.