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Israeli ground troops enter Gaza

The civilians did not attack Israel. :doh
Welcome to War. It's ugly but indispensable.

Besides, how can we say the civilians who emotionally, politically, philosophically and materially support Hamas do not in effect attack Israel?
There might be a case made that in generally the future terrorists (children) are temporarily innocent, but that is the affair of their murder-contaminated elders.
 
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And yet there's no information as to what was being held in that mosque. I'm sorry for every civilian killed on every side, but there is no way to avoid this.

Yes, because it was necessary to bomb that Mosque.

2. Israel claims that Hamas violated the cease-fire and pulled out of it unilaterally.

Hamas indeed respected their side of the ceasefire, except on those occasions early on when Israel carried out major offensives in the West Bank. In the last two months, the ceasefire broke down with Israelis killing several Palestinians and resulting in the response of Hamas. In other words, Hamas has not carried out an unprovoked attack throughout the period of the cease-fire.

Israel, however, did not live up to any of its obligations of ending the siege and allowing vital humanitarian aid to resume in Gaza. Rather than the average of 450 trucks per day being allowed across the border, on the best days, only eighty have been allowed in - with the border remaining hermetically sealed 70% of the time. Throughout the supposed 'cease-fire' Gazans have been forced to live like animals, with a total of 262 dying due to the inaccessibility of proper medical care.

Now after hundreds dead and counting, it is Israel who refuses to re-enter talks over a cease-fire. They are not intent on securing peace as they claim; it is more and more clear that they are seeking regime change - whatever the cost.
Mustafa Barghouthi
 
Hamas takes the Palestinian population as hostages.

When a criminal takes hostages in the USA (or everywhere else in the world), what does the SWAT do? What's their main aim?
- is it to rescue the hostage alive and avoid wounding them at any cost, or
- is it to kill the hostage taker at any cost and use shotguns and grenades to do so, no matter what happens to the hostages around him

Hamas has been elected by the Palestinians. By letting them rise to power they have cooked their own dice. Secondly, what do you suggest Israel does? If Hamas hides amongst civilians, how can they not be hurt?

If a Hamas commander chooses to hide in his home although he knows he's wanted, and a strike on his house kills 10 members of his family (as happened yesterday) - that's his problem. He knowingly risked the life of his family.
 
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When, exactly, did Israel support the election of Hamas? You're talking nonsense. From the very first moment Hamas came to power, Israel has announced it has no plans to have direct talks with a terrorist organization not recognizing Israel.

It's what Zeev Sternhell says. He is an Israeli historian who works for the Haaretz newspaper and got the Israel Prize for Political Science in 2008.

He says that Netanyahu freed Cheikh Ahmed Yassine in 1997 so that he "torpedoes" the Oslo agreements and defeat Arafat

PALESTINE Hamas, le produit du Mossad - l'Humanite
 
Its a geology thing dude.The rest is religion,politics,and unfair trade ,OH, and the absolute stupidity of the bad guys...DON`T MESS WITH ISRAEL.

'the bad guys'

Both sides are the 'bad guys'
 
Yes, because it was necessary to bomb that Mosque.


Mustafa Barghouthi

Gazans live like animals because Hamas is charged with distributing humanitarian aid, and does it unevenly. Secondly, where does he take his numbers from? I know that Israel has allowed humanitarian aid inside Gaza, even while strikes have been carried out. Israel has also served medical assistance to Palestinians hurt in various conflicts.

Of course Israel is seeking a regime change. When the cease-fire has ended, Hamas has continued the practice of bombing Israeli towns, even closer to the center - how do you expect Israel to react? Work towards another cease-fire, when it has been proven that this cease-fire only gives Hamas a chance to re-equip itself? Besides that, an extension of the cease-fire has been discussed, but Hamas was reluctant to accept.

This is a big bully punching the little bully and the civilians being stuck in the middle.

Using your analogy, if a bully attacks another bully, he deserves a punch in the face, as the other 'bully' hasn't done anything to provoke it. And if that 'small' bully chooses to hold civilians in the line of fire, that's his problem.
 
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Hamas has been elected by the Palestinians. By letting them rise to power they have cooked their own dice. Secondly, what do you suggest Israel does? If Hamas hides amongst civilians, how can they not be hurt?

If a Hamas commander chooses to hide in his home although he knows he's wanted, and a strike on his house kills 10 members of his family (as happened yesterday) - that's his problem. He knowingly risked the life of his family.

Then if you think that Palestinians support Hamas, you'd have to kill them all if you want to destroy this group. That would be a kind holocaust and I'm not sure you support that.

Or convince them by killing as many Hamas members as possible, so that they fear being killed. But then it's terrorism: http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...r-strikes-target-gaza-115.html#post1057869933

Or then admit that the raids are political (elections are close and I heard your government was not very popular) and that they won't destroy the Hamas
 
And yet there's no information as to what was being held in that mosque. I'm sorry for every civilian killed on every side, but there is no way to avoid this.

So there's no information about what, if anything, was inside it. Yet, in your mind, it's justified. How sad. :(
 
Ah, my bad.
Its a matter of countdown.

Israel will withdraw, just a matter of when.

Yes they will and the Hamas will use any money and time it gets to rebuild its tunnels, weapons stock piles and bunkers for the next time they start launching rockets again. I'm sure they will cry "victim hood" again when Israel fights back.
 
Of course Israel is seeking a regime change. When the cease-fire has ended, Hamas has continued the practice of bombing Israeli towns, even closer to the center - how do you expect Israel to react? Work towards another cease-fire, when it has been proven that this cease-fire only gives Hamas a chance to re-equip itself? Besides that, an extension of the cease-fire has been discussed, but Hamas was reluctant to accept.

Hamas didn't originally violate the ceasefire; Israel did. That is the point. You cannot say that ceasefires don't work when it is your own country that is violating it (well, you could, but not while supporting your own country).

And like I said before, this invasion and occupation are not going to be effective in removing Hamas, because Hamas is just one organization and representative of a much larger anti-imperialist sentiment in Palestine, which could at best result in a quick withdrawal or at worst a prolonged occupation with escalating violence preceding a withdrawal, both of which would be failures for Israel.

You think they'd learn from their financial backers who are right now caught up in a very similar conflict not too far away...
 
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Using your analogy, if a bully attacks another bully, he deserves a punch in the face

A punch yes but you can call what is occuring a punch?
 
Yes they will and the Hamas will use any money and time it gets to rebuild its tunnels, weapons stock piles and bunkers for the next time they start launching rockets again. I'm sure they will cry "victim hood" again when Israel fights back.

Lol, im sure they will.
 
Hamas didn't originally violate the ceasefire; Israel did. That is the point. You cannot say that ceasefires don't work when it is your own country that is violating it (well, you could, but not while supporting your own country).

And like I said before, this invasion and occupation are not going to be effective in removing Hamas, because Hamas is just one organization and representative of a much larger anti-imperialist sentiment in Palestine, which could at best result in a quick withdrawal or at worst a prolonged occupation with escalating violence preceding a withdrawal, both of which would be failures for Israel.

You think they'd learn from their financial backers who are right now caught up in a very similar conflict not too far away...

What links do you have for this?
 
'the bad guys'

Both sides are the 'bad guys'
This is an assertion for very small children who cannot make tough ethical and moral judgments.

Personally, I think I'll call the ones who think it's a swell idea to strap bombs on their kids and sent them out to blow up people in pizzerias the "bad guys."
 
This is an assertion for very small children who cannot make tougt ethical mad moral judgments

What a nice conclusion to someone who is blindly following one side.

Perhaps if we had more people like me who criticised both sides rather than like you who support 1 faithfully. Peace would be in ME.
 
This is an assertion for very small children

I could say the same of everything you say, as you clearly have no capacity for independent thought.

Am I flaming now? I can't tell what's a flame and what's not anymore. Anyways, I think this is about equivalent to calling people small children.
 
That sounds fair to the civilians. :doh
Fair?

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about warfare.

Allow me to explain. War is what happens when things like justice, fairness, concern for the welfare of the masses and other useful fictions are dispelled.

The Palestinians think of acts of war as political policy. They have volunteered thereby for an effective and efficient type of intense remedial education for themselves.

The fact that they would subject their children to such an exercise justifies, all by itself, the application of these stringent measures to the adults.
 
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This is an assertion for very small children who cannot make tough ethical and moral judgments.

Personally, I think I'll call the ones who think it's a swell idea to strap bombs on their kids and sent them out to blow up people in pizzerias the "bad guys."

Then you must overlook the attacking of civilian targets with phosphorous bombs by the "good guys". :lol:
 
So God should protect one group of people while they kill another? Very interesting.

God has no power. The powers in the Gun.

Paul.
 
I hope Israel takes out Hammas this time. If they don't then this will be happening for the next decade repeating with out stopping. If Israel does take out Hammas, then hopefully Gaza's new goverment can talk with Israel and the two sides can make peace. That is the best scenario and I hope it happens.
 
What a nice conclusion to someone who is blindly following one side.

Perhaps if we had more people like me who criticised both sides rather than like you who support 1 faithfully. Peace would be in ME.
Not a chance.

The failure of civilized nations to rally around the cause of one of their own is the main reasons that none of us can awaken from this nightmare.

A failure to chose a side in such a clearly delineated struggle is almost incomprehensible to me, without resort to concepts such as cowardice, moral depravity or willful denial of facts.

It is almost as though one couldn't choose as side between healthy, albeit imperfect tissue and gangrenous flesh.
 
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