• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

9 Muslim Passengers Removed From Jet

In any even, besides being Muslim, there were no other reason to raise alarm bells in this case, as being Muslim alone is not good enough of a reason. What the heck happened to common sense?

Common Sense is what raised the alarm.
 
So do you also believe that judges that are christian shouldn't try the cases of rape victem's since their religion tells them that such victems should be stoned to death?

It's not a matter of religion, it's a matter of laws and system of government being antithetical to each other.

2 : being in direct and unequivocal opposition
 
Please provide examples and proof that these are consistent with the "Christian" world.

Also, please answer the question: what modern day Christians have you seen videos of cutting the heads off people as a political statement?

I said none that I know of.

And c'mon, Jallman, you know that there are some whacked out Christians out there who do bad things in the name of the Lord... do you really need me to provide some examples?

What I'm getting at is that there are extremes in every religion.
 
Besides incest, child molestation, killing of it's own, polygamy and the murder of FBI agents, I would say none that I know of.

When looking at the particulars, anyone who'd try to equate modern Christianity to violence in the name of Allah is begging to be criticized for majoring in minutia and obfuscation.
 
I said none that I know of.

And c'mon, Jallman, you know that there are some whacked out Christians out there who do bad things in the name of the Lord... do you really need me to provide some examples?

What I'm getting at is that there are extremes in every religion.

I agree...there are extremes in every religion. My point is that it serves no purpose to mitigate one religion's crazies by pointing to another religion's crazies.
 
This family was dressed in Muslim gab and had children with them. Nothing about their body language screamed "terrorist bombers". Besides being Muslim, they did not come close to fitting the profile of hijackers. The sheer mention of the word "security" have them reported, for god's sake.

Listen, I'm all for instinct, but from what I know of this case, it was not instinct that got this family reported. It was fear. And if anyone is going to be that terrified, then it's simple... don't fly.

I don't know how to make it clearer. I agree with you that it is unfair that these people have been profiled. I agree that that is what occurred, that they were profiled by the passengers who reported them. I agree that it was irrational and unjust.

What I am saying is that because we are human we will be irrational, and we will make mistakes of all sorts. I am trying to point out that being perfectly rational at deciding who is a threat and who is not may not be possible. If this is the case, and we shame people for their racism in these specific circumstances, it is likely that the result will be that we will miss catching a real terrorist at some point, and the consequences will be terrible. That is what my story shows. In my case, a wallet was made off with (there was no money in it, I had the satisfaction of knowing).

But, if a passenger on a plane sees something they believe is suspicious and they say to themselves "Oh for crying out loud, I'm just being racist" and it turns out that there really was something to be concerned about, the consequences won't simply be a missing wallet.

You argument rests on the notion that it is possible to be completely rational about race at all times. While I applaud your sentiment, and believe that we must always work toward that ideal, it is perhaps foolishness to believe you have accomplished it. At least in the context where so many lives can be at stake.
 
I said none that I know of.

And c'mon, Jallman, you know that there are some whacked out Christians out there who do bad things in the name of the Lord... do you really need me to provide some examples?

What I'm getting at is that there are extremes in every religion.
And how does the Cristian community at large react to murder in the name of that religion? Do Christians dance in the streets when say, and abortionist is murdered, as the Islamic World celebrated the World trade Center's destruction?

Do major Christian leaders make televised expostulations stating that they have every right promote their beliefs by force, or that the sins of the Clergy are permitted by the Prophets?

Pretending that there is little difference or virtue between the various faiths does not make it so.
 
I agree...there are extremes in every religion. My point is that it serves no purpose to mitigate one religion's crazies by pointing to another religion's crazies.

I agree. However, my intent was to not compare, and play the "who committed the worst offenses" game in the name of religion, but to simply put things into perspective. It's easy to condemn things we have little clue about, and I think most of us here have basic knowledge of the Koran, if any. We don't hear much about the Muslims who want nothing more than a peaceful life, but I do know a few. And some who are deeply religious.

Bottom line, I put myself in the shoes of that family that got kicked off of the plane. Think about the injustice they feel. The embarrassment, let alone the delayed vacation that most likely will be ruined.
 
I agree...there are extremes in every religion. My point is that it serves no purpose to mitigate one religion's crazies by pointing to another religion's crazies.

Islamic violence is in perfect accord with Muhammad’s hostile directives

"...the vicious violence intrinsic to Islamic jihad is not an aberration.

Unlike Christ’s repudiation of faith-propagating violence - “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would fight” (John 18: 36),

Muhammad urges his followers to slay the enemies of Allah - “slay the idolaters wherever you find them” (Sura 9: 5).

While medieval so-called Christian violence [in reality Roman Catholic e.g. the Crusades] was a lapse from Christ’s methods and thus condemned by the New Testament, Islamic violence is in perfect accord with Muhammad’s hostile directives."

Christianity, Islam and British Politics

c. What about the violent passages in the Bible?


First, violent Biblical passages are irrelevant to the question of whether Islam is violent.

Second, the violent passages in the Bible certainly do no amount to a standing order to commit violence against the rest of the world.

Unlike the Quran, the Bible is a huge collection of documents written by different people at different times in different contexts, which allows for much greater interpretative freedom.

The Quran, on the other hand, comes exclusively from one source: Muhammad. It is through the life of Muhammad that the Quran must be understood, as the Quran itself says. His wars and killings both reflect and inform the meaning of the Quran.

Furthermore, the strict literalism of the Quran means that there is no room for interpretation when it comes to its violent injunctions. As it is through the example of Christ, the "Prince of Peace," that Christianity interprets its scriptures, so it is through the example of the warlord and despot Muhammad that Muslims understand the Quran.

Jihad Watch: Islam 101

"Do Christians have to obey the Old Testament law?"

"When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15)."
 
If Muslim want to avoid this sort of thing, perhaps they should indicate by deed instead of merely by word that they oppose terrorism.
What do you mean? These were American citizens, almost half of which were children 7 and under. Two were professionals; a doctor and a lawyer. They said nothing wrong, they did nothing wrong...they were the victims of bigotry and prejudice and the airline itself was even worse about it and truly treated them like criminals.
 
See, all I would need to motivate me to lock my doors in a darkened parking lot is the "intentive" look on the guy's face, no matter skin colour.

In any even, besides being Muslim, there were no other reason to raise alarm bells in this case, as being Muslim alone is not good enough of a reason. What the heck happened to common sense?
OK, let me obliterate this for you.

If you are a black American, and I just happen to like wearing pointy white hooded masks with flowing white robes, does common sense not urge you to a certain caution, even discomfort, perhaps a quick review of your second amendment rights if I show up on your doorstep one night?

I mean I might just want directions to the Interstate. I might.


What about this. Assume that you are Jewish. Myself and the fellows from my bodybuilding club want to collect money for foreign children suffering from cancer. To show solidarity with the kids, we have shaved out heads.

Since the charity is headquartered in India, we proudly display their symbol, which is thousands of years old, the Eastern Swastika. Now how do you feel about running into us in the Mall? I'd just imagine that you'd make some pretty unfair and unkind assumptions.

In neither case, would I blame you a bit for apprehension, calling the police or being terrified.

And frankly, I wouldn't believe you if you said that either situation would leave you unfazed.
 
You argument rests on the notion that it is possible to be completely rational about race at all times. While I applaud your sentiment, and believe that we must always work toward that ideal, it is perhaps foolishness to believe you have accomplished it. At least in the context where so many lives can be at stake.

You are right, it's impossible for all to be completely rational about this. No one fully understands everything, let alone what it's like to be in someone else's shoes. And because if this, abuses will happen. It's a part of life, I guess.
 
What do you mean? These were American citizens, almost half of which were children 7 and under. Two were professionals; a doctor and a lawyer. They said nothing wrong, they did nothing wrong...they were the victims of bigotry and prejudice and the airline itself was even worse about it and truly treated them like criminals.
If you like.
 
I agree. However, my intent was to not compare, and play the "who committed the worst offenses" game in the name of religion, but to simply put things into perspective. It's easy to condemn things we have little clue about, and I think most of us here have basic knowledge of the Koran, if any. We don't hear much about the Muslims who want nothing more than a peaceful life, but I do know a few. And some who are deeply religious.

Bottom line, I put myself in the shoes of that family that got kicked off of the plane. Think about the injustice they feel. The embarrassment, let alone the delayed vacation that most likely will be ruined.

Not to mention the extra expense. And that's saying nothing of the animosities that are built which may make a moderate into a radical.

But that points out that there are always, among any group of Muslims, a small number of radicals who act to seduce, induce, intimidate, foment, organize, probe and provoke and recruit new Jihadists. They will pounce on this latest incident and create more new revolutionaries who you will defend.
 
OK, let me obliterate this for you.

If you are a black American, and I just happen to like wearing pointy white hooded masks with flowing white robes, does common sense not urge you to a certain caution, even discomfort, perhaps a quick review of your second amendment rights if I show up on your doorstep one night?

I mean I might just want directions to the Interstate. I might.


What about this. Assume that you are Jewish. Myself and the fellows from my bodybuilding club want to collect money for foreign children suffering from cancer. To show solidarity with the kids, we have shaved out heads.

Since the charity is headquartered in India, we proudly display their symbol, which is thousands of years old, the Eastern Swastika. Now how do you feel about running into us in the Mall? I'd just imagine that you'd make some pretty unfair and unkind assumptions.

In neither case, would I blame you a bit for apprehension, calling the police or being terrified.

And frankly, I wouldn't believe you if you said that either situation would leave you unfazed.

So are you saying that Muslims should not utter the word "security" when they fly?
 
When was the last time you heard of a bunch of Hasidim or Seventh Day Adventists blowing up so much as a disused Porta-Potty?

On the other hand how many times have we been treated to internet videos of abject savages slowly cutting off the heads of bound, screaming prisoners while chanting Allah Akbar?

Do try and pay attention to the world around you, it will teach you so much if you just open your eyes!
Uhm...these were Americans not Iraqis or Pakistanis. They are American. They were born and raised here. Since when does any American have to take a loyalty oath to get on an airplane?

The only reason they were taken off the plane is because they were Muslim. Nothing else they did justifies the result, nothing. To accept this as OK is to accept bigotry in America and I won't do that.
 
It's pretty sad that our paranoia and fear has come to this. I think we should collectively be taking some deep breaths and calming down. There's going to be Muslims out there, even in this country, doesn't make them terrorists. Most of us will never meet a terrorist at all. The FBI had cleared up the misunderstanding and I don't think the family was allowed on another plane, even after the misunderstanding had been cleared. It's ridiculous, on some level it feels like we're living back in fear of witches or something. Half surprised we haven't burned anyone at the stake.
 
Common Sense is what raised the alarm.
Common sense you say? Please explain what the common sense was? I'm curious if you think their garb and beards are enough to "raise the alarm of common sense"?
 
I think it's also important to consider that a true terrorist would most likely not dress in traditional Muslim garb and bring attention to themselves if they were plotting evil

Unfortunately the Authorities are damed if they do, damed if they dont. Muslims are known to use "Traditional dress" as a disguise, so NO stone must be left unturned.

'21 July bombers planned London carnage' - Crime, UK - The Independent

"When the bombs failed to explode, one fled London disguised as a Muslim woman in a burka."

Paul.
 
What modern day Christians have been hijacking planes and hacking off heads on Jihadi youtube?

Like this?

Christian Terrorists Leave IED Outside Abortion Clinic
Friday April 27, 2007
There are always new reports about Muslims using IEDs to terrorize and kill Americans in Iraq, but now we could have a case of Christian terrorists using IEDs to terrorize and try to kill Americans in Texas — at an abortion clinic, to be specific. Law enforcement is treating the matter seriously, which is good, but I wonder if those who regularly complain about Muslim extremism and terrorism will treat this incident in a similar manner, or if they will start making excuses that they never accept on behalf of Muslims.
Christian Terrorists Leave IED Outside Abortion Clinic
 
Uhm...these were Americans not Iraqis or Pakistanis. They are American. They were born and raised here. Since when does any American have to take a loyalty oath to get on an airplane?

The only reason they were taken off the plane is because they were Muslim. Nothing else they did justifies the result, nothing. To accept this as OK is to accept bigotry in America and I won't do that.

Your comment suggests another question.

What other religious loyalty on Earth but Islam might be inherently hostile to our system of government?

If you are more loyal to Christianity, that loyalty won't interfere with this government.

If your higher loyalty is to Allah then there is a conflict.
 
Your comment suggests another question.

What other religious loyalty on Earth but Islam might be inherently hostile to our system of government?

If you are more loyal to Christianity, that loyalty won't interfere with this government.

If your higher loyalty is to Allah then there is a conflict.
Not amongst Americans so your point is a straw man argument, sorry. Show us please the angst American Muslims have shown about being loyal to America over Islam?
 
Back
Top Bottom