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Lawsuit seeks to take 'so help me God' out of inaugural

Wessexman said:
Nope. Not in that sense.

What then is antidisestablishmentarianism about?

No it isn't. The Church of England is an established church, the Anglican church in Australia is not an established religion. Religion establishment means a state church, we have been through this, your definition proved me right. Hence religion had its own category otherwise it would have been lumped with the other and let's not forget my definitions.

Established church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An established church is a church officially sanctioned and supported by the government of a country, e.g. the Church of England and the Church of Scotland in the United Kingdom. Such a sanction is discouraged in some countries, such as the United States, where this is covered by the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

Good for them.
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You're hung up on the term "established church" which meant "a church recognized by law as the official church of a nation or state and supported by civil authority" back in 1702.

The language reads "AN ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION," not all establishments of religion are "established churches."

A non-established Church, like the one on my block, is still an establishment of religion. Its religious, and an establishment by definition.
 
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Wessexman said:
Wow, online dictionary that actually proves my point. :2wave:

established church - definition of established church by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

es·tab·lished church (-stblsht)
n.
A church that a government officially recognizes as a national institution and to which it accords support.
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Dude, my own link even said that. established church - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

Main Entry: established church
Function: noun
Date: circa 1702

: a church recognized by law as the official church of a nation or state and supported by civil authority
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This is not something I missed but my entire point that you're still missing; See the above post.

Not every establishment of religion is an "established Church" there are establishments which are not state Churches.

Your argument here is tantamount to saying that the Church on my block is not an establishment. Trust me, its a private institution and it does in fact exist.
 
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Wessexman said:
Indeed, it said religious establishments were state churchs. It proved my point, otherwise it wouldn't have listed them seperately.

Not to mention we are talking about 18th century usage when establishment was even more strictly used.

Establishment and Disestablishment at the Founding, Part I: Establishment of Religion
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No, it said that established churches are an example of an establishment, but not all religious establishments are established churches.

Any private institution that exists can be an establishment, a non-state church would be a perfect example of one.
 
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Lachean said:
This is not something I missed but my entire point that you're still missing; See the above post.

Not every establishment of religion is an "established Church" there are establishments which are not state Churches.
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You are mixing up the terms. An established church is an ancient religious usage, when one talks of religious establishments that is what one means, particularly in the past. Hence it is listed under its own usage in the definition. Your usage is a recent bastardisation and twisting of the term.

The FF's new very well what the term meant.
 
Lachean said:
No, it said that established churches are an example of an establishment, but not all religious establishments are established churches.
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Yes they are in formal usage, particularly in the 18th century as that article shows. You are using lax English.
 
Wessexman said:
You are mixing up the terms. An established church is an ancient religious usage, when one talks of religious establishments that is what one means, particularly in the past. Hence it is listed under its own usage in the definition. Your usage is a recent bastardisation and twisting of the term.

The FF's new very well what the term meant.
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I guarantee you that the definition for establishment has NOT changed, and that the constitution says the words "establishment of religion" not "established Churches."

Establishment /= Established, and "establishment of religion" /= "established church."

Yes the founding fathers knew what the terms meant, which is why they chose their words VERY carefully. The term you KEEP REFERRING TO was NOT USED, a word in that term was.
 
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Lachean said:
Any private institution that exists can be an establishment, a non-state church would be a perfect example of one.
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Not in the 18th century it couldn't and today it is only so through lax use of English. The FF's who lived in the 18th century knew what they were doing, they knew what the term meant.
 
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Lachean said:
I guarantee you that the definition for establishment has NOT changed, and that the constitution says the words "establishment of religion" not "established Churches."

Establishment /= Established, and "establishment of religion" /= "established church."

Yes the founding fathers knew what the terms meant, which is why they chose their words VERY carefully.
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It technically hasn't changed, an church establishment is still a state one in formal English but it was even so in informal English in the 18th century.

Establishment and Disestablishment at the Founding, Part I: Establishment of Religion

Yes the founding fathers knew what the terms meant, which is why they chose their words VERY carefully. The term you KEEP REFERRING TO was NOT USED, a word in that term was.
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Indeed they knew that it meant a state church if they'd meant anything else they could have easily chosen a term that meant clearly any signs of religions were banned from public institutions.

Btw your own definition states establishment meant a state church so it is a strange tact you are taking.
 
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How very bass ackwards your arguments are...

Wessexman said:
Not in the 18th century is couldn't and today it is only so through lax use of English. The FF's who lived in the 18th century knew what they were doing, they knew what the term meant.
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Your usage is a recent bastardisation and twisting of the term.
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LOL, again you make a huge chronological mistake. The definition I cited for the WORD establishment predates the TERM "established Church" by over a century. Not to mention that the TERM "established church" was not ever used in the 1st amendment.

Main Entry: es·tab·lish·ment
Pronunciation: \i-ˈsta-blish-mənt\
Function: noun
Date: 15th century
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Main Entry: established church
Function: noun
Date: circa 1702
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You sure do love putting the kart before the horse... This kinda reminds me of that time that you claimed that a post that hadn't occurred yet justified your rudeness... You know... that thing I keep asking you about that you keep ignoring?

Are you going to ignore this post as well?
 
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Lachean said:
LOL, again you make a huge chronological mistake. The definition I cited for establishment predates the term "established Church" by over a century.
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No the word does, according to the online dictionary you cited. It does not list the beginnings of each usage.

The term gay used to mean happy and a prostitute. It's modern meaning is 20th century and yet it is listed by your online dictionary as 14th century.

gay - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

Main Entry:
1gay Listen to the pronunciation of 1gay
Pronunciation:
\ˈgā\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French gai, of Germanic origin; akin to Old High German gāhi quick, sudden
Date:
14th century

1 a: happily excited : merry <in a gay mood> b: keenly alive and exuberant : having or inducing high spirits <a bird's gay spring song>2 a: bright , lively <gay sunny meadows> b: brilliant in color3: given to social pleasures ; also : licentious4 a: homosexual <gay men> b: of, relating to, or used by homosexuals <the gay rights movement> <a gay bar>

Not to mention that the TERM "established church" was not ever used in the 1st amendment.
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Except of course that according to your very definition it means that in a religious context.
 
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Wessexman said:
No the word does, according to the online dictionary you cited. It does not list the beginnings of each usage.
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:rofl What do you think the word "Date" means in a definition?

EDIT:
Except of course that according to your very definition it means that in a religious context.
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No, in my very definition it cites "established church" as an example of an establishment.

:rofl what do you think it means when following a definition, several things are listed for example for vehicle if it said "a. Chevy Camero"?
 
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Lachean said:
:rofl What do you think the word "Date" means in a definition?
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It means it first appeared in the English language at the time. As I quoted above the term gay appeared in the English language in the 14th century but it wasn't used to mean homosexual until the 20th century.
 
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Wessexman said:
It means it first appeared in the English language at the time. As I quoted above the term gay appeared in the English language in the 14th century but it wasn't used to mean homosexual until the 20th century.
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:rofl what do you think it means when a definition is the LAST ONE in the list? For example "1. merry" and ... "4. homosexual" ?

You had me interested for a little bit, but I'm getting bored again. At least you ceased w/ the insults, it makes you look far more competent at debating.
 
No, in my very definition it cites "established church" as an example of an establishment.
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No it doesn't. It cites it as a definition of establishment. It lists the religious definition of establishment as an established church.

Anyway this destroys the point you are trying to make ie the establishment doesn't mean established church, even if your twisted was correct it certainly could.
 
Wessexman said:
No it doesn't. It cites it as a definition of establishment. It lists the religious definition of establishment as an established church.

Anyway this destroys the point you are trying to make ie the establishment doesn't mean established church, even if your twisted was correct it certainly could.
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No, you're the one twisting words since you're claiming that all establishments of religion are established churches, simply because of a dated TERM.

My apartment building is by definition an establishment, and it is NOT an established church.

Establishment /= Established Church, established churches are simply a kind of establishment. THERE ARE OTHERS, and nothing you have said "destroys this."

Is a private institution with no religious affiliations an establishment or not? Yes or no?

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By the way, my definition listed "established church" under examples of "something established."

A list of examples is NO definition.
 
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Wessexman said:
What? (too short.)
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That was my way of saying that the date pertains to the first definition, and that if you wanted to know the dates of other uses of a term consult an english major.

Anywho, I've got work tomorrow, if your reply is as insult free as the last few, expect a response.
 
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Lachean said:
No, you're the one twisting words since you're claiming that all establishments of religion are established churches, simply because of a dated TERM.
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We are talking about an 18th century document. You seem to be admitting my point.

In formal English that is what a religious establishment meant, particularly in the 18th century and the FF's knew this. They could have easily used a different term but they didn't because they knew its usage.

Calling any religious organisation an establishment is lax use of English, even today.
My apartment building is by definition an establishment, and it is NOT an established church.

Establishment /= Established Church, established churches are simply a kind of establishment. THERE ARE OTHERS, and nothing you have said destroys this.

Is a private institution with no religious affiliations an establishment or not? Yes or no?
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In formal English a religious establishment is an established church. That is why they are listed seperately, partiuclarly before quite recently. You are being lax with the English language.
 
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Lachean said:
That was my way of saying that the date pertains to the first definition, and that if you wanted to know the dates of other uses of a term consult an english major.
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It was you who was trying to make an argument out of it. I showed you were wrong or that your evidence only showed when the word was first used.
 
Wessexman said:
We are talking about an 18th century document. You seem to be admitting my point.

In formal English that is what a religious establishment meant, particularly in the 18th century and the FF's knew this. They could have easily used a different term but they didn't because they knew its usage.

Calling any religious organisation an establishment is lax use of English, even today.
In formal English a religious establishment is an established church. That is why they are listed seperately, partiuclarly before quite recently. You are being lax with the English language.
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How can I be "admitting your point" when the term you insist on referring to was never used? And the "definition" that you keep referring to was AN EXAMPLE of a definition?

Calling ANY organization an establishment in no way contradicts the definition of the term, nor is it "lax."

Wessexman said:
It was you who was trying to make an argument out of it. I showed you were wrong or that your evidence only showed when the word was first used.
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No, you claimed that my definition was a "recent bastardization" when it was in fact the definition when the word was first used.

My definition PREDATED your term, which is why I took issue with your allegation of "bastardization." Not that your term is relevant at all because its not cited as a definition for the word, only an example of an establishment.

And "established church" is utterly absent from the constitution.
 
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Lachean said:
How can I be "admitting your point" when the term you insist on referring to was never used? And the "definition" that you keep referring to was AN EXAMPLE of a definition?

Calling ANY organization an establishment in no way contradicts the definition of the term, nor is it "lax."
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You just contradicted yourself in the same post. Establishment means an established church in religious terms, hence its seperate definition, particularly in the 18th century and the FF's knew this.

Establishment and Disestablishment at the Founding, Part I: Establishment of Religion

To be honest I think I have amply proved my point and unless you have anything to really offer rather than the same tired old whining then I don't see much point in continuing.

No, you claimed that my definition was a "recent bastardization" when it was in fact the definition when the word was first used.
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Where is your proof for this?
 
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Wessexman said:
You just contradicted yourself in the same post. Establishment means an established church in religious terms, hence its seperate definition, particularly in the 18th century and the FF's knew this.
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No, no it doesn't and you haven't proven this nor cited a single DEFINITION that agrees with you.

Wessexman said:
To be honest I think I have amply proved my point
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I'm sure you do.

Wessexman said:
and unless you have anything to really offer rather than the same tired old whining then I don't see much point in continuing.
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If you're done just say it, you don't have to insult me just because you don't understand how definitions work.

The fact remains that you started and ended this debate with insults, and justified them by claiming they were in response to a post that HAD NOT BEEN MADE YET.

And you claimed that my definition was a "recent bastardization" and you claimed that the example "established church" is a definition rather than an example. You don't understand basic definitions, how to read them, or basic simple words like "shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

But if thats all you have to say... and you feel that you have "amply proved" the failed points that you keep ignoring, by all means, pretend like you didn't commit two foolish chronological mistakes.
 
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Not that your term is relevant at all because its not cited as a definition for the word, only an example of an establishment.
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Actually it was treated the same as your definition. You are being untruthful here.

And "established church" is utterly absent from the constitution.
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You are being disingenuousl now.
 
Lachean said:
No, no it doesn't and you haven't proven this nor cited a single DEFINITION that agrees with you.
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Yes I have, your own defintion did. Not to mention the other definitions and the article.
If you're done just say it, you don't have to insult me
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I call an apple and apple. You don't understand English and you are being disingenuous to score cheap points. Why should I debate with those who are disingenuous?

I think we are done.:2wave:
 
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