Israeli air strikes target Gaza

Laila · Dec 30, 2008

Goobieman said:
Are you simply unable to explain your refusal to consider military force, or are you just a contrarian?

I don't see how bombarding a area with bombs is going to win the war and achieve peace.
It'll make things worse as it has done every damn time it has occured in the ME.

As said previously, it may win a battle but not the war.

Goobieman · Dec 30, 2008

shiznit770 said:
They should have found a solution which involved a geographic unification of Palestine. Hamas brutally took power in Gaza and they are completely shut off from the West Bank.

So... Israel should be seperated into 2 sections just to placate the Palestinians?

:roll:

When are you people going to realize that the Palestinians define "peace" as "the destruction of Israel?

Goobieman · Dec 30, 2008

Laila said:
I don't see how bombarding a area with bombs is going to win the war and achieve peace.

:roll:
When your enemy shoots at you and you do not respond in like and kind, it only encourages him to shoot at you more.

shiznit770 · Dec 30, 2008

Goobieman said:
Again:
This presupposed facts that have not been established.

You can keep trying to present your -opinion- as fact, but we both know that as soon as you are asked to actually support your statements and show that they are indeed facts (rather than mere opinion based on pure ignorance) you'll revert to your usual whining and crying.

:doh

I love when you do this Goobieman, its as good as conceding the point to me.

bub · Dec 30, 2008

Goobieman said:
Are you simply unable to explain your refusal to consider military force, or are you just a contrarian?

Goobieman said:
Again:
This presupposed facts that have not been established.

You can keep trying to present your -opinion- as fact, but we both know that as soon as you are asked to actually support your statements and show that they are indeed facts (rather than mere opinion based on pure ignorance) you'll revert to your usual whining and crying.

Goobieman said:
So... Israel should be seperated into 2 sections just to placate the Palestinians?

:roll:

When are you people going to realize that the Palestinians define "peace" as "the destruction of Israel?

Goobieman said:
:roll:
When your enemy shoots at you and you do not respond in like and kind, it only encourages him to shoot at you more.

don't forget this post

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...ir-strikes-target-gaza-87.html#post1057864875

Renae · Dec 30, 2008

Goobieman said:
Interesting report, in that Israel fire designed to drive people away from the border fence is classed as a 'violation' whereas Hamas rocket fire into Israel is ignored.

It's not ignored, it's justified. Israel's an evil terrorist state that must be destroyed!!!!

Seriously though, it is amazing how many people whine about "uneven response" in this situation. What should Israel do? Fire back 80 craptastic indiscriminate rockets into Palestine?

Laila · Dec 30, 2008

'Turkey no longer mediating for Israel'

Turkey says it will no longer mediate between Tel Aviv and Damascus, stating that the Israeli attacks on Gaza has made peace 'impossible'.

"The continuation of the talks under these conditions is naturally impossible," Turkey's Foreign Minister Ali Babacan told reporters after a meeting with visiting Egyptian counterpart Ahmed Abul Gheit.

"Waging war against Palestinians while negotiating peace with Syria - these two cannot go together," he added, pointing out that Ankara was greatly 'disappointed' with Israel's actions.

The deadly attacks that have sparked worldwide protests were also condemned by Ankara, the key mediator in four rounds of talks held between Damascus and Tel Aviv over the faith of the Israeli occupied Golan Heights.

"To go and bomb these defenseless people, and to openly say that this operation will be a long-lasting one, that it will be this or that, to me, is a serious crime against humanity," Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Sunday.

Meanwhile on Monday, Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak claimed that the regime's massive operation was in 'self-defense' and in response to the rocket fire from the Gaza Strip.

"This operation will expand and deepen as much as needed… We went to war to deal a heavy blow to Hamas, to change the situation in the south," he said.

"We do not want to hit children and women and we will not prevent humanitarian aid" from reaching Gaza, he added.

This is while truck loads of humanitarian aid wait on outside Gaza border crossings as Israel continues to prevent the passage of vital supplies into the costal strip.

Press TV - 'Turkey no longer mediating for Israel'

Thats Turkey down.
Any guesses when Egypt or Jordan will be forced to act under pressure?

SquareMelon · Dec 30, 2008

moe said:
Yes there are Arab Christians caught up in this mess. But you seem to avoid acknowledging that EVERY time that there is a peace process in the works it is the militant Muslims that step up their attacks to insure that the peace processes is derailed and no such treaty can be signed.

Palestinian christians are not just caught up in this, they are suffering like other palestinians and in Gaza too. Be my guest and blame everything if you like on the the muslim militants, but do not forget that Israel have refused so far to end the occupation and continue to use every execuse real or manufactured it can to keep hold of the west bank.

moe said:
No it was not started by Israel and there was much more involved than just the Egyptian blockade. You seem to think that because Israeli forces launched the first major attack that it was a war of Israeli aggression. That was not the case at all. The Arab nations were already staging troops for an attack on Israel. The stated purpose of these troops recorded by history is.......

Yes, you just confirmed what i said, Israel considered it a preemptive war. Certainly there is more involved, we will differ on this as it seems that I will go back in history few more years than you just did.

moe said:
As is mine and obviously Israel's also seeing that they have returned most of that land. So who has acted in a civilized manner in this issue? Israel or the Militant Arab forces that constantly attack Israel? Plus your original statement was that they gave back the land due to an inability to maintain the occupation. My reply was that even though your argument does have limited merit it does not explain the reason that Israel has given back so much of that land. And until there is a bona fide reliable treaty in place that truly insures peace then from a strategic point of view it would be sheer suicide for Israel to give up any more land. It is already such a small country that any war turns the entire country into a front line combat area. There is no true rear area because they are to small to have a rear area.

You keep talking about "Israel returned most of the Land" what land is this? The Palestinian land is the west bank and gaza. Gaza is 30km by 10km with 1.5 million people of which 80% are refugees and belong to "southern Israel", you can read more about them in this article
Robert Fisk: Why bombing Ashkelon is the most tragic irony The Independent

The west bank is still fully occupied. I said that Israel withdraw from inside Gaza, but it maintained virtual control by sea air and land. They withdraw for self intrest and not due to "giving land back to the Palestinians", neverthe less, they did withdraw but continued target assasinations, shelling, and the blockade later.

moe said:
People in the west want to play checkers against an opponent that is skilled in chess. While the west is trying to figure out if they should jump to the next square the opponent is studying the entire board looking for a queen rook bishop attack. The Militant Muslims do not care if they chip away at Israel through aggressive or peaceful means. Regardless as to how they cause the Israeli's to give up more land it is counted as a strategic victory for them.

You obvisously support the Israeli position and is giving execuses why Israel should keep all of the Land.

moe said:
The temple mount is effectively under Muslim control today. Unless you think it is Jews that are standing on top of the mount throwing rocks down on the heads of their fellow Jews?
Jews and Christians are forbidden to worship on the Temple Mount.
Christians, Jews praying on Temple Mount 'seek religious war'

Moe

Israel is still in control of ALL the west bank and jerusalem. You would need to do a little better than quoting a worldnetDaily article to support what you are saying.

Goobieman · Dec 30, 2008

shiznit770 said:
:doh
I love when you do this Goobieman, its as good as conceding the point to me.

I'm -sure- you think that.

However, the issue that your 'facts' are nothing more than you opinions, based in ignorance, remians.

Goobieman · Dec 30, 2008

bub said:
don't forget this post

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...ir-strikes-target-gaza-87.html#post1057864875

Did you have a point?

JMak · Dec 30, 2008

MrVicchio said:
Seriously though, it is amazing how many people whine about "uneven response" in this situation. What should Israel do?

Those are the "useful idiots" that whine about a disproportionate response. We see it every time Israel responds to Arab-Palestinian rocket attacks. Apparently, Israel is to be condemned beause she can inflict greater lossess on the terrorists.

Here's some recommendations to even things out:
1) Request that 50% of Israel's air-to-ground missiles be duds to ensure greater proportionality.

2) Allow Hamas another 1,000 free rocket launches to see if they can catch up with the body count.

3) Have Israeli soldiers congregate in border barracks so that Hamas's random rockets have a better chance of killing military personnel, to ensure it can claim at least a few military targets.

4) Redefine "holocaust" to refer to deaths of terrorists in numbers under 400 to give greater credence to Hamas's current claims.

5) In the interest of fairness, allow Hamas to establish both the date that war is supposed to begin and the date when it must end.

6) Send Israeli military advisers to Hamas to improve the accuracy of their missiles.

7) Take down the barriers to return to Hamas a fair chance of getting suicide bombers back inside Israel.

h/t VDH @ National Review Online

Laila said:
Any guesses when Egypt or Jordan will be forced to act under pressure?

Well, not under any pressure, but Egypt has demonstrated some intellectual honesty. Yesterday, Egypt's foreign minister, Ahmad Aboul Gheit, harshly criticized Hamas for not permitting the wounded to leave Gaza and using them as propaganda props.

It seems there are others in the Middle East also criticizing Hamas...finally. Reuters was even reporting that Abbas was criticizing Hamas for violating the truce.

bub · Dec 30, 2008

Goobieman said:
Did you have a point?

Yes: you said that I never blamed Hamas and that I was antisemite. You were wrong and I expect apologies for this insult.

Laila · Dec 30, 2008

JMak said:
Well, not under any pressure, but Egypt has demonstrated some intellectual honesty. Yesterday, Egypt's foreign minister, Ahmad Aboul Gheit, harshly criticized Hamas for not permitting the wounded to leave Gaza and using them as propaganda props.

It seems there are others in the Middle East also criticizing Hamas...finally. Reuters was even reporting that Abbas was criticizing Hamas for violating the truce.

Not really.
This 'honesty' has increased anger at them and support for Islamists.
Hezbollah and Iran and Hamas will come out on top of this attack and the Moderate Arab countries are going to get it in the neck.

The Pro west/Pro Israel Governments will be overthrown eventually, just a matter of waiting.
Israel has not made life easy on their Muslim 'allies' making life difficult as hell for any country which has agreements with Israel.
Egypt is already being accused of working with US and Israel as accomplices in the killings and an agent of CIA lol

If death toll rises, im 100% certain Egypt, Jordan, Turkey and Saudi Arabia will re think their position and take a harsher tone with Israel to keep Arab support.

Incidentally:

Hezbollah vows to support Hamas

Lebanon's powerful Hezbollah guerrilla — widely seen as the Arab world's most effective force against Israel — has vowed to support Palestinian ally Hamas under the barrage of Israeli warplanes but has for now held its fire, constrained by its own political goals and fears of mass retaliation.

Hezbollah possesses a formidable arsenal of rockets and missiles that bloodied Israel during a monthlong war between them in 2006. Now, the Iranian- and Syrian-backed Shiite Muslim militant group faces domestic constraints on reopening a fight against Israel.

Hezbollah also has to reckon with Lebanese army and a more robust U.N. peacekeeping force in the south near the border with Israel. Since 2006, thousands of Lebanese troops have deployed along with 13,000 U.N. peacekeepers in a border zone.

For now, Hezbollah's strategy seems to be to mobilize the Arab masses, particularly in Egypt, while counting on Hamas holding out until Israel backs down under outside pressure to end the Gaza offensive.

Hezbollah expert Amal Saad-Ghorayeb describes the conflict as an "existential" one between those opposed to U.S. and Israeli policy — namely, Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria and Iran — and the so-called pro-U.S. Arab states.

JMak · Dec 30, 2008

SquareMelon said:
Palestinian christians are not just caught up in this, they are suffering like other palestinians and in Gaza too. Be my guest and blame everything if you like on the the muslim militants, but do not forget that Israel have refused so far to end the occupation and continue to use every execuse real or manufactured it can to keep hold of the west bank.

It doesn't seem to be in Israel's interests to end such occupation. Each time Israel concedes territory that territory immediately becomes a launching point for Arab-Palestinian and Muslim terror attacks. It was this way in the 80s when Israel pulled out the north and continued with Israel's departure from Gaza.

Why do you believe that israel should be compelled to return land when it's clear that the Arabs and jihadists will simply use it to luanch even more attacks against Israel?

Yes, you just confirmed what i said, Israel considered it a preemptive war. Certainly there is more involved, we will differ on this as it seems that I will go back in history few more years than you just did.

How does Israel consider this a preemptive war? Are they not responding to months and months of continued rocket attacks? In other words, acts of war?

You keep talking about "Israel returned most of the Land" what land is this? The Palestinian land is the west bank and gaza. Gaza is 30km by 10km with 1.5 million people of which 80% are refugees and belong to "southern Israel", you can read more about them in this article

Israel left Gaza. Gaza is now a terror haven from which Arabs and Muslims launch near daily terror attacks. Israel should re-occupy the land which had been fairly captured in the first place when she successfully repelled foreign attack.

The west bank is still fully occupied. I said that Israel withdraw from inside Gaza, but it maintained virtual control by sea air and land. They withdraw for self intrest and not due to "giving land back to the Palestinians", neverthe less, they did withdraw but continued target assasinations, shelling, and the blockade later.

Targetting, of course, Hamas and Hezbollah terrorists that continue to fund, plan, and commit acts of terror. Shelling and blockading were conducted specifically to restrict Hamas' ability to acquire weapons and to target those areas where Hamas and others were operating.

You sound as though Israel just launches attacks without any justification whatsoever...i.e., like the Arabs and Muslims do.

You obvisously support the Israeli position and is giving execuses why Israel should keep all of the Land.

In hindsight, Israel should have never conceded the land in the first place. It is now clear that such concessions are viewed as a weakness. In other words, concessions will never be enough for the Arabs and Muslims who will not tolerate the existence of Israel, period.

Israel is still in control of ALL the west bank and jerusalem. You would need to do a little better than quoting a worldnetDaily article to support what you are saying.

Thank goodness they control these areas. otherwise, they, too, wuld become new terror staging positions.

JMak · Dec 30, 2008

Laila said:
Not really.
This 'honesty' has increased anger at them and support.

Of course it has. Who expected otherwise? The point is that finally, there are some in the Middle East who have faith in peace that are finally condemning the terrorists for wrecking peace.

Hezbollah and Iran and Hamas will come out on top of this attack and the Moderate Arab countries are going to get it in the neck.

Only because the useful idiots in America and Europe will let them. Not because Israel can be defeated militarily but because the terrorists are better at PR.

I mean, why else does the AP show photos of kids with slingshots when publishing reports about Israel attacking "militants?" The useful idiots at AP clearly sympathize with terrorists.

Egypt is already being accused of working with US and Israel as accomplices in the killings and an agent of CIA lol

LOL, indeed. Just more conspiracy theories in place of rational arguments.

If death toll rises, im 100% certain Egypt, Jordan, Turkey and Saudi Arabia will re think their position and take a harsher tone with Israel to keep Arab support.

Doubtful.

Incidentally:

Hezbollah vows to support Hamas

Terrorists supporting terrorists...novel. :roll:

Laila · Dec 30, 2008

JMak said:
Of course it has. Who expected otherwise? The point is that finally, there are some in the Middle East who have faith in peace that are finally condemning the terrorists for wrecking peace.

Faith in peace? LMAO
Yeah right, before or after they are forced out of office? That is where this 'faith in peace' is going to result in.

Only because the useful idiots in America and Europe will let them. Not because Israel can be defeated militarily but because the terrorists are better at PR.

I mean, why else does the AP show photos of kids with slingshots when publishing reports about Israel attacking "militants?" The useful idiots at AP clearly sympathize with terrorists.

EU and US should stay out of Muslim politics.
If they get overthrown, tough ****.
Israel will never win the PR war.
Because it is what is occuring?

If Americans and Israelis have the conviction to defend a war, then i want Western media to show how truley horrific war is. Muslim media is the best to show reality, it shows what is occuring. It doesn't cover it up and sanitize it for westerners stomachs. They show when a child is bleeding, they show when people are crying about the attacks.

Doubtful.

Terrorists supporting terrorists...novel. :roll:

We will see JMak, because i know it'll happen if it gets worse.
Radicalism will grow in strength and as will Hamas if they survive this attack
Hezbollah was strengethened beyond belief after the 06 attacks and any Moderates will have no choice but to do the same.

shiznit770 · Dec 30, 2008

JMak said:
It doesn't seem to be in Israel's interests to end such occupation. Each time Israel concedes territory that territory immediately becomes a launching point for Arab-Palestinian and Muslim terror attacks. It was this way in the 80s when Israel pulled out the north and continued with Israel's departure from Gaza.

The only reason Israel conceded territory was because it lost support from its allies and public. The occupation lead to the emergence of Hezbollah and Hamas. If Israel had solidified its borders instead of allowing them to expand into occupied territory there would have been no attacks after the withdrawals.

Goobieman · Dec 30, 2008

bub said:
Yes: you said that I never blamed Hamas and that I was antisemite. You were wrong and I expect apologies for this insult.

I'll admit that I was wrong regarding you not blaming Hamas -- but you'll get no apology.

Goobieman · Dec 30, 2008

Laila said:
EU and US should stay out of Muslim politics.

The -only- thing that keeps Israel from taking off the gloves and tearing "Palestine" apart is the US not letting her off the leash.

If Americans and Israelis have the conviction to defend a war, then i want Western media to show how truley horrific war is.

Yes, It WOULD be nice if the media DID show the damage done to Israel by its terrorist enemies.

shiznit770 · Dec 30, 2008

Goobieman said:
The -only- thing that keeps Israel from taking off the gloves and tearing "Palestine" apart is the US not letting her off the leash.

Yes, It WOULD be nice if the media DID show the damage done to Israel by its terrorist enemies.

I believe Israel is already getting "proportional" media time.

Laila · Dec 30, 2008

Goobieman said:
The -only- thing that keeps Israel from taking off the gloves and tearing "Palestine" apart is the US not letting her off the leash.

Yes, It WOULD be nice if the media DID show the damage done to Israel by its terrorist enemies.

What damage?
A few shops hit by rockets?
Sure, show that.
And also show what Israel is doing in Gaza and the casulties that has occured.

US would allow Israel to let go of a Nuke if they thought they could get away with it :roll:

Goobieman · Dec 30, 2008

Laila said:
What damage?
A few shops hit by rockets?
Sure, show that.

I was thinking more about the kids blown up while riding the bus to school.

US would allow Israel to let go of a Nuke if they thought they could get away with it :roll:

The only thing that keeps Israel from doing so is the US.
You want the US/EU to keep their hands off the ME? Consider that.

Laila · Dec 30, 2008

Goobieman said:
I was thinking more about the kids blown up while riding the bus to school.

The only thing that keeps Israel from doing so is the US.
You want the US/EU to keep their hands off the ME? Consider that.

Then show that too.

Pretty much just US.
I have no issues with EU, I'd much rather US influence continues to go down within the ME and EU goes up.

JMak · Dec 30, 2008

shiznit770 said:
The only reason Israel conceded territory was because it lost support from its allies and public.

Perhaps. The point is, though, that such concessions have not resulted in peace but only more and increased attacks by the Arabs and Muslims. Disagree?

Everytime that land is conceded there is no peace, just more and more violent attacks against Israel.

The occupation lead to the emergence of Hezbollah and Hamas.

Nonsense. These groups exist for one purpose...to eliminate the state of Israel. They do not exist to diplomatically resolve the occupation question. They exist explicitly because they and their suitors cannot tolerate that Israel exists.

If Israel had solidified its borders instead of allowing them to expand into occupied territory there would have been no attacks after the withdrawals.

Now you're revealing your ignorance. What you said doesn't make any sense.

The driving purpose of Hamas and Hezbollah ain't to recover occupied land that Israel captured when defending herself against attacks from other Middle East nations. They're charters reveal their ambition, their objective.

Goobieman · Dec 30, 2008

Laila said:
I have no issues with EU, I'd much rather US influence continues to go down within the ME and EU goes up.

Well, of course -- the US is pro-Israel, and the EU is not.

Israeli air strikes target Gaza

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