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Israeli air strikes target Gaza

ludahai said:
1. Hamas used any loosening of the blockade to get people into Israel in the past.
2. Egypt maintains an even TIGHTER blockade on Gaza. Why not attack them?
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because we must only blame those dirty JOOS
 
ludahai said:
Briefly because of rocket attacks.
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So there is still the blockade. Which is the reason why there are rockets. So rockets are going to be launched again. Policy fail.

Because groups like Hamas insist on the destruction of Israel. THAT is why there may never be peace.
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Blame everything on the other side. Like they are both doing for decades. The result is in front of you. Epic policy fail.



Where in Article 51 does it say self defense must be proportionate?
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- If there was no need for proportionality, the UN would not condemn Israel.
- Proportionality is present in every law system. That's why the entire world condemns Israel.

THat looks like the statement of one official in the UN, not the UN itself.
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She leads the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights. Who else could speak in the name of the UN? God?

If they are killing your citizens, you have the right to take out the infrastructure that makes it possible for them to do it so they can't do it again. Israel is WELL WITHIN its rights, whether or not the rest of the world likes it. If they want to stop it, come up with a viable solution that protects the legitimate rights of Israel. Short of that, the Israelis are going to protest their citizens, as is their right.
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Then can you explain why the entire world condemns these attacks? They're all antisemite?
 
Slainte said:
Hamas has stated repeatedly it is willing to acknoweldge Israel as a reality and work from there. Demanding that they accept the legitimacy of Israel, when most Palestinians obviously do not, is a recipe for another failed peace process.
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Legitimate link? That statement goes directly against its own charter, which calls for the destruction of Israel as well as against the statements of its primary benefactor of their organization which calls for Israel to be "wiped off the map."
 
bub said:
So there is still the blockade. Which is the reason why there are rockets. So rockets are going to be launched again. Policy fail.
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They lifted the blockade to get in humanitarian supplies. The attacks continued. Hamas showed no good will. Blockade goes back up.

Blame everything on the other side. Like they are both doing for decades. The result is in front of you. Epic policy fail.
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Israel has showed willingness to compromise and press for peace. Hamas has not.

- If there was no need for proportionality, the UN would not condemn Israel.
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It was a statement from a single UN official, not the body itself.

- Proportionality is present in every law system. That's why the entire world condemns Israel.
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Proportionality has NEVER existed as a basic tenet of international law.

She leads the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights. Who else could speak in the name of the UN? God?
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The only bodies with legal standing in the UN on such situations would be the UNSC and the ICJ.

Then can you explain why the entire world condemns these attacks? They're all antisemite?
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Not the entire world, but yes, there is a lot of anti-Semitism in the world.
 
bub said:
They (Sarkozy, the European Union, the United Nations...) blame both parts

UN chief calls on Hamas to immediately end rocket attacks on Israel_English_Xinhua

But you seem to think that Israel is right, that's why I remember you that this country is condemned worldwide
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1. Nice source, from the Chinese Communists.

2. I don't hold the EU in high esteem. They are allowing themselves to be hijacked over the membership of a European state because one member is in a silly tizzy over it's name.

Israel has the right to defend itself. If these organizations or leaders want to criticize, why don't they come up with a viable solution to protect Israel's legitimate rights.
 
ludahai said:
They lifted the blockade to get in humanitarian supplies. The attacks continued. Hamas showed no good will. Blockade goes back up.

Israel has showed willingness to compromise and press for peace. Hamas has not.
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That's not true

Hamas says open to new truce in Gaza | International | Reuters
Hamas holds fire in Gaza, open to new truce | Reuters
Israel reopens Gaza border, Hamas looks to truce | International | Reuters
Gaza militants back Israel-Hamas truce-Hamas leader | Reuters
Hamas to tell Egypt will accept Gaza truce-official | Reuters


It was a statement from a single UN official, not the body itself.
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Yeah right, she's a worthless ***** and her opinion doesn't matter because she doesn't agree with Israel :roll:


Proportionality has NEVER existed as a basic tenet of international law.
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You fail:

Proportionality (law) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's OK if several civilians are killed incidentally, but it's not OK when the concrete military advantage is too small. Since Israel won't succeed in destroying Hamas, the attack is not proportionate.


The only bodies with legal standing in the UN on such situations would be the UNSC and the ICJ.
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:roll:



Not the entire world, but yes, there is a lot of anti-Semitism in the world.
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Sarkozy condemned Israel and he is Jew. Is he an antisemite Jew?
 
ludahai said:
1. Nice source, from the Chinese Communists.
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The source is totally irrelevant, as it just repeats what the UN says

2. I don't hold the EU in high esteem.
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Good for you, but no ones care.
They are allowing themselves to be hijacked over the membership of a European state because one member is in a silly tizzy over it's name.
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How is that related with the Israeli raid?

Israel has the right to defend itself. If these organizations or leaders want to criticize, why don't they come up with a viable solution to protect Israel's legitimate rights.
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They propose solutions (ceasefires, the 1947 borders, the destruction of the security fence...) but Israel does not give it a ****
 
Vader said:
If Iran gets into the conflict directly, Iran will suffer an attack far worse than the bombing of Gaza.

... From TWO seperate nations.

The mullah terrorists are aware of this.
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Iran is not ready yet. This is just another cycle of violence sponsored by Iran to keep the pot boiling. Nobody including Hamas is under any illusion that Hamas is going to single handedly defeat Israel with rockets and mortars.

It is all for propaganda. To the local Muslims Hamas are the hero's. The Muslim version of David and Goliath. Even if this current offensive were to kill all except 1 Hamas militant with in a month they would be back up to full strength because the younger Muslims see these militants as hero's for the struggle.

When 9/11 happened here kids who had no intention of joining the service all of sudden changed their minds because they wanted to make right the wrong that they believed was done to our people. Same thing over there. Hatred is burning in these young Muslim men and women as they see what is happening in Palestine to their fellow Muslims. Part of this strategy is intended to raise the level of hate in Arab countries whose governments permit US bases on their soil. They are hoping that if they raise the hate enough in the local populations that people in those countries will rise up and demand that their governments throw the US out of their countries. This strategy can work. The governments permit our bases but we have to walk a very very fine line because the people of those countries do not want us their. That is why we always beg Israel please do not attack the same enemy we attack. If it were ever seen that those bases were being used to actively support an Israeli operation it would be all over. There would be riots and slaughter in the so called moderate Arab states. Because the citizens of those countries really do not like us or Israel either.

This is why there will never be peace in Palestine. It is to important to the Militants and their Iranian masters to keep the hate alive. This will not be settled until Iran finally enters the battle full strength. If Iran is defeated on the battle field and the regime replaced then there will be real chance for peace in the region.

Moe
 
moe said:
It is all for propaganda. To the local Muslims Hamas are the hero's. The Muslim version of David and Goliath. Even if this current offensive were to kill all except 1 Hamas militant with in a month they would be back up to full strength because the younger Muslims see these militants as hero's for the struggle. Moe
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This is a result of Hamas brainwashing that is being carried out in the schools in Gaza.

Hamas needs to be crushed out of existence.
Islamic Jihad needs to be crushed out of existence.
 
SquareMelon said:
Ethnic cleansing and killing will not work. Israel will never be able to destroy Hamas militarily no matter what it does. The only solution is to end the occupation by Israel to Palestinian land and guarantee the security and safety of Israel in return. Even Hamas has indicated that it will accept that. The Palestinian people will force it to if they refuse simply by voting them out in the next election.
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So rather than ethnic cleansing via Military force we do it through political means? We just all gather at the UN and decide ok the nation of Israel no longer exists and poof it is gone? Problem solved??

And then we should perhaps do like some Indians tribes in America used to do. When a person of the tribe was seen as no longer beneficial to the tribe they just pretended that person does not exist.

You could not not talk to them or acknowledge their existence in way shape or form. If they spoke to you, you pretended like nothing was there. Is this what you are saying that we should do with Israel?

We politically decide that they are stateless and if they refuse to leave Palestine we just pretend that they do not exist and let the Muslims move in and do what they wish with these non existent people?

You are aware that the Muslim definition of Palestine means every square inch of soil that Israel exists on today right? Not just certain areas. To them ALL of Israel is on Palestinian soil.

That is why no matter how much land Israel has given in the past the Muslims demand more. The objective is not to get part of it but to get all of it. Even if the state of Israel consisted of just one city block to the Militant Arabs that is one block to big.

Moe
 
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moe said:
So rather than ethnic cleansing via Military force we do it through political means? We just all gather at the UN and decide ok the nation of Israel no longer exists and poof it is gone? Problem solved??

And then we should perhaps do like some Indians tribes in America used to do. When a person of the tribe was seen as no longer beneficial to the tribe they just pretended that person does not exist.

You could not not talk to them or acknowledge their existence in way shape or form. If they spoke to you, you pretended like nothing was there. Is this what you are saying that we should do with Israel?

We politically decide that they are stateless and if they refuse to leave Palestine we just pretend that they do not exist and let the Muslims move in and do what they wish with these non existent people?

You are aware that the Muslim definition of Palestine means every square inch of soil that Israel exists on today right? Not just certain areas. To them ALL of Israel is on Palestinian soil.

That is why no matter how much land Israel has given in the past the Muslims demand more. The objective is not to get part of it but to get all of it. Even if the state of Israel consisted of just one city block to the Militant Arabs that is one block to big.

Moe
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At this point, I think it is safe to say, the land Israel is to "give up" according to the arab states, is that for which Israel has illegally occupied for the last 41 years. I have to believe muslims will be okay with Israel's existance west of the Green Line.
 
Vader said:
This is a result of Hamas brainwashing that is being carried out in the schools in Gaza.

Hamas needs to be crushed out of existence.
Islamic Jihad needs to be crushed out of existence.
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This is a result of Israeli brutality and restriction of basic services in violation of IHL.
 
Billo_Really said:
At this point, I think it is safe to say, the land Israel is to "give up" according to the arab states, is that for which Israel has illegally occupied for the last 41 years. I have to believe muslims will be okay with Israel's existance west of the Green Line.
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Someone needs to throw a shoe at Rice and stop funding Israel until they receed back to said line.
 
dirtpoorchris said:
Someone needs to throw a shoe at Rice and stop funding Israel until they receed back to said line.
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You're too nice!

I think the US, Russia and China all ought to donate a mechanized division each and drive the Israeli's back to Israel. Then set up a DMZ along the Green Line and shoot any mother-****er that enters from either side.
 
Billo_Really said:
This is a result of Israeli brutality and restriction of basic services in violation of IHL.
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It seems like you are very unaware of the facts here. Israel's "brutality" happened due to the fact that for approximately 8 years israeli citizens in Sederot absorbed heavy fire of rockeets coming from Gaza. For eight years kids in Sederot have been hearing sirens every day, running in the streets looking for cover.

Now, the rockets ae improved and they reach up to 30 km from the gaza strip. Right now, as I write this message, I keep my ears open so I can hear if a siren will go off. It happened in my city twice already.

As for the lack basic services, Israel is supplying the civilians in Gaza with humanitarian aid of food, water and medicine. In fact, one day before the IDF began this operation, the Israeli government sent 40 trucks filled with humanitarian aid into the Gaza strip.
 
Billo_Really said:
You're too nice!

I think the US, Russia and China all ought to donate a mechanized division each and drive the Israeli's back to Israel. Then set up a DMZ along the Green Line and shoot any mother-****er that enters from either side.
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Just for your basic inrofmation, Israel is not interested in invading Gaza. Israel is interested in restoring peace to the cities around the Gaza strip, which suffers for 8 years from rockets shooting at them every day.

Besides, Israel have tried to give Gaza back to Egypt, but guess what? the Egyptians didn't want it back.

Any guesses why???
 
lynnb said:
It seems like you are very unaware of the facts here. Israel's "brutality" happened due to the fact that for approximately 8 years israeli citizens in Sederot absorbed heavy fire of rockeets coming from Gaza. For eight years kids in Sederot have been hearing sirens every day, running in the streets looking for cover.

Now, the rockets ae improved and they reach up to 30 km from the gaza strip. Right now, as I write this message, I keep my ears open so I can hear if a siren will go off. It happened in my city twice already.

As for the lack basic services, Israel is supplying the civilians in Gaza with humanitarian aid of food, water and medicine. In fact, one day before the IDF began this operation, the Israeli government sent 40 trucks filled with humanitarian aid into the Gaza strip.
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I realize this and applaud Israel's efforts in these areas. I am also against all these rocket attacks. But let me ask you, is Sederot a city west of the Green Line, or east of it? The single biggest problem between Israeli-Palestian relations, is the "occupation". This is a problem for which there is only one solution .... that is to end it. And you cannot tell me that Israel has not shut off basic services before in retaliation to these rockets. I think Israel has a right to defend itself, even in the OPT. But Israel does not have a right to take out vengence on the innocent Palestinian population.
 
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Billo_Really said:
I think the US, Russia and China all ought to donate a mechanized division each and drive the Israeli's back to Israel. Then set up a DMZ along the Green Line and shoot any mother-****er that enters from either side.
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It is not in the United States', Russia's, or China's national interest to provide military assistance to a radical terrorist group that rejects a sovereign state's right to exist, deliberately and indiscriminately attacks civilians, and embraces a radical philosophy that rejects compromise. Furthermore, it is not in their interests to deprive Israel of its right of self-defense, especially when each of those countries has exercised self defense (U.S.: war in Afghanistan following the 9/11 terrorist attacks, Russia's counterterrorism against Chechen terrorists responsible for the Beslan massacre, and China's fight against Islamist terrorists in its Xinjiang Province. Therefore, such assistance won't be forthcoming.
 
donsutherland1 said:
It is not in the United States', Russia's, or China's national interest to provide military assistance to a radical terrorist group that rejects a sovereign state's right to exist, deliberately and indiscriminately attacks civilians, and embraces a radical philosophy that rejects compromise. Furthermore, it is not in their interests to deprive Israel of its right of self-defense, especially when each of those countries has exercised self defense (U.S.: war in Afghanistan following the 9/11 terrorist attacks, Russia's counterterrorism against Chechen terrorists responsible for the Beslan massacre, and China's fight against Islamist terrorists in its Xinjiang Province. Therefore, such assistance won't be forthcoming.
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Get out of the OPT!

Enough is enough.

Don't tell me Israel is without sin. I completely reject that argument.
 
lynnb said:
It seems like you are very unaware of the facts here. Israel's "brutality" happened due to the fact that for approximately 8 years israeli citizens in Sederot absorbed heavy fire of rockeets coming from Gaza. For eight years kids in Sederot have been hearing sirens every day, running in the streets looking for cover.

Now, the rockets ae improved and they reach up to 30 km from the gaza strip. Right now, as I write this message, I keep my ears open so I can hear if a siren will go off. It happened in my city twice already.

As for the lack basic services, Israel is supplying the civilians in Gaza with humanitarian aid of food, water and medicine. In fact, one day before the IDF began this operation, the Israeli government sent 40 trucks filled with humanitarian aid into the Gaza strip.
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40 trucks filled with well planned logistics for there own troops.
 
ludahai said:
Legitimate link? That statement goes directly against its own charter, which calls for the destruction of Israel as well as against the statements of its primary benefactor of their organization which calls for Israel to be "wiped off the map."
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Hamas has refused to accept that Israel has the "right" to exist as doing so would implicity ackoweldge that the Zionist have a greater claim to the area than the Arabs. What Hamas is prepared to do is ackoweldge the reality of the situation; that Israel controls a large part of the area and there is little Hamas can do about that. Why isn't that a valid starting point for negotiations?

"As a Palestinian today I speak of a Palestinian and Arab demand for a state on 1967 borders. It is true that in reality there will be an entity or state called Israel on the rest of Palestinian land,” he said.

“This is a reality but I won’t deal with it in terms of recognising or admitting it,” the Hamas leader said.

Hamas leader accepts the 'reality' of Israel - Times Online
 
Billo_Really said:
I realize this and applaud Israel's efforts in these areas. I am also against all these rocket attacks. But let me ask you, is Sederot a city west of the Green Line, or east of it? The single biggest problem between Israeli-Palestian relations, is the "occupation". This is a problem for which there is only one solution .... that is to end it. And you cannot tell me that Israel has not shut off basic services before in retaliation to these rockets. I think Israel has a right to defend itself, even in the OPT. But Israel does not have a right to take out vengence on the innocent Palestinian population.
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Israel has tried it's best not to take any vengence of palestinian citizens. Our prime minister and Our secretary of defence have made it clear that this operation is not intending to harm any innocent palestinians.

Just today Israel passed some aid to the Gaza Strip. Israel is trying it's best to protect the palestinian civillians, but with Hamas ruling over the Gaza Strip, they make it hade on us to support the civillians.

Noow let me ask something else: why doesn't the UN, France, Russia and every other country or organization calling for an immediate ceasefire help by sanding some humanitarian aid to help the citizens? where is your government in this situation???
 
dirtpoorchris said:
40 trucks filled with well planned logistics for there own troops.
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I'm sorry, it seems like you are saying silly things about things you clearly don't know one thing about.

or maybe I misunderstood you?
 
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