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Israeli air strikes target Gaza

I was referring to those muslims who were militant enough to protest.

People don't have to be militant to protest. I haven't seen any violent videos of the protest. The videos I have seen have been peaceful. If there are any videos showing otherwise, please post them.
 
OK Hamas are ***** and should stop their attacks immediatly. They have violated the ceasefire by launching rockets, and it's normal that Israel tries to kill them (even if that won't bring peace).

However, did you know that the Hamas rockets have killed 1 Israeli and wounded 8 (which is not acceptable) but in 3 days, 51 Palestinian civilians have been killed!

And then when I say that it's not proportionate members say it's BS :shock:

If such a counter attack could bring peace and stop the Hamas, that would be OK, but Israel has already used such methods in the past and the only result was more intifadas and more extremism.
 
Please stop repeating the word "civilian" like a danged mantra. Even the Palestinians are reporting that most of them were Hamas militants.

And stop dancing around and face reality.
 
OK Hamas are ***** and should stop their attacks immediatly. They have violated the ceasefire by launching rockets, and it's normal that Israel tries to kill them (even if that won't bring peace).

However, did you know that the Hamas rockets have killed 1 Israeli and wounded 8 (which is not acceptable) but in 3 days, 51 Palestinian civilians have been killed!

And then when I say that it's not proportionate members say it's BS :shock:

If such a counter attack could bring peace and stop the Hamas, that would be OK, but Israel has already used such methods in the past and the only result was more intifadas and more extremism.

I just watched MSNBC's "Morning Joe" and they pointed out something I would have figured out eventually. Israeli PM Olmert is on his way out and that in the face of Israel's perceived defeat in Lebanon 2 or 3 years ago because they didn't go all the way with wiping out the Hezbollah opposition, Olmert intends to go out in a blaze of glory in a way. This time I believe he will try to eliminate Hamas. Completely.
 
OK Hamas are ***** and should stop their attacks immediatly. They have violated the ceasefire by launching rockets, and it's normal that Israel tries to kill them (even if that won't bring peace).

However, did you know that the Hamas rockets have killed 1 Israeli and wounded 8 (which is not acceptable) but in 3 days, 51 Palestinian civilians have been killed!

And then when I say that it's not proportionate members say it's BS :shock:

If such a counter attack could bring peace and stop the Hamas, that would be OK, but Israel has already used such methods in the past and the only result was more intifadas and more extremism.

So my friend, what would you suggest Israel do?
 
I just watched MSNBC's "Morning Joe" and they pointed out something I would have figured out eventually. Israeli PM Olmert is on his way out and that in the face of Israel's perceived defeat in Lebanon 2 or 3 years ago because they didn't go all the way with wiping out the Hezbollah opposition, Olmert intends to go out in a blaze of glory in a way. This time I believe he will try to eliminate Hamas. Completely.

I hope they do. It was a mistake not to finish off Hizbollah. They are more firmly entrenched in Lebanon than ever. Finishing them off not only would have helped Israel, but also Lebanon. Finishing off Hamas will not only help Israel, but also both the Palestinians and Egypt as well.
 
I just watched MSNBC's "Morning Joe" and they pointed out something I would have figured out eventually. Israeli PM Olmert is on his way out and that in the face of Israel's perceived defeat in Lebanon 2 or 3 years ago because they didn't go all the way with wiping out the Hezbollah opposition, Olmert intends to go out in a blaze of glory in a way. This time I believe he will try to eliminate Hamas. Completely.

Then he is going to fail. Even when Israel controlled Gaza, two years ago, when they had all their tanks etc...they have been unable to do so. You just can't destroy Hamas this way:


Un bain de sang inutile - Opinions - Le Monde.fr


Si l'objectif, comme les responsables israéliens l'ont clamé haut et fort avant la reprise des hostilités, est de porter un coup sévère, sinon définitif, au Mouvement de la résistance islamique (Hamas), il y a fort à parier que la décision israélienne se heurtera à une douloureuse réalité. Le Hamas est puissant lorsque ses thèses radicales semblent validées par les faits, que la diplomatie est en panne et que l'Autorité palestinienne apparaît au mieux comme accessoire, au pire comme l'auxiliaire d'un Etat qui continue d'occuper la plus grande partie de la Cisjordanie.

Les assassinats de ses fondateurs historiques et de centaines de miliciens, depuis le début de la deuxième Intifada, n'ont pas empêché le Hamas de prendre le contrôle de Gaza en 2007

"If the goal, as Israeli leaders told before the offensive, is to give a severe or definitive blow to Hamas, they are going to have to face the sad truth. Hamas gets more powerful when its radical thesis are validated by facts, when diplomacy doesn't work anymore and when the Palestinian Authority looks like the auxilary of the state that keeps on occupying most of West Bank."
 
So my friend, what would you suggest Israel do?

End the blockade of Gaza and go back inside its borders. Then the Hamas would not have any reasons to keep on attacking, and will loose support. And only then, if Israel is attacked again, they'll have the right to reply with force, and the rest of the world will support them.
 
End the blockade of Gaza and go back inside its borders. Then the Hamas would not have any reasons to keep on attacking, and will loose support. And only then, if Israel is attacked again, they'll have the right to reply with force, and the rest of the world will support them.

The blockade has been eased. link

Israel should NOT completely withdraw from the West Bank until it has reasoanble assurances that the territory will not be used to launch attacks against Israel.

As for the right to use force, Israel has it now. They are exercising their inherent right to self-defense, confirmed by Article 51 of the UN Charter.
 
End the blockade of Gaza and go back inside its borders. Then the Hamas would not have any reasons to keep on attacking, and will loose support. And only then, if Israel is attacked again, they'll have the right to reply with force, and the rest of the world will support them.

How did the allies break the will of Nazi Germany? Complete annihilation. That should be easy for Israel to accomplish. End this mess once and for all.
 
I hope they do. It was a mistake not to finish off Hizbollah. They are more firmly entrenched in Lebanon than ever. Finishing them off not only would have helped Israel, but also Lebanon. Finishing off Hamas will not only help Israel, but also both the Palestinians and Egypt as well.

I think this may be a two pronged gambit. One, to finally deal with Hamas. The other, to try to defuse the looming threat of a nuclear armed Iran.
 
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The blockade has been eased. link

has been briefly eased. It's over now, there are tanks everywhere

Israel should NOT completely withdraw from the West Bank until it has reasoanble assurances that the territory will not be used to launch attacks against Israel.

then there will never be peace, that's quite simple

As for the right to use force, Israel has it now. They are exercising their inherent right to self-defense, confirmed by Article 51 of the UN Charter.

yes, but self defense must be proportionate. That is not the case. That's why the UN condemns Israel
UN rights chief: Israeli force 'disproportionate' - International Herald Tribune

If someone kicks you, you have the right to kick back, but you don't have the right to kill him with a flamethrower. That's simple to understand, isn't it?
 
has been briefly eased. It's over now, there are tanks everywhere



then there will never be peace, that's quite simple



yes, but self defense must be proportionate. That is not the case. That's why the UN condemns Israel
UN rights chief: Israeli force 'disproportionate' - International Herald Tribune

If someone kicks you, you have the right to kick back, but you don't have the right to kill him with a flamethrower. That's simple to understand, isn't it?

Proportionality assures future attacks and ongoing violence.

Disproportionate retaliation has the goal of stopping the violence by making the initiator conclude he can not afford the game of tit for tat.
 
Disproportionate retaliation has the goal of stopping the violence by making the initiator conclude he can not afford the game of tit for tat.

If it was true, Hamas would have stopped violence a long time ago
 
However, did you know that the Hamas rockets have killed 1 Israeli and wounded 8 (which is not acceptable) but in 3 days, 51 Palestinian civilians have been killed!

Two points are in order:

1) Hamas has carried out indiscriminate rocket attacks. Civilians have often been deliberate targets for Hamas. Israel has targeted Hamas' installations, security installations, etc. Those targets are legitimate military objectives.

2) Hamas has placed its facilities, weapons, and personnel in the midst of civilians. Hamas bears complete responsibility for civilian casualties that result when Hamas' installations, weapons, and operatives are targeted. The fact that the Gaza Strip is densely populated does not excuse Hamas of its responsibility. Hamas has been engaging in human shielding and it bears whole responsibility for the consequences of that practice.
 
Both sides have a religious mandate driving them towards unilateral occupation of the land. Israel just happens to be the more powerful. The problem won't end until one side is eliminated since both sides are hindered by blind ignorance.

In response to the claims that a few hundred dead is a small number... it's not really a small number in an area smaller than downtown Ottawa. Plus, violence begets more violence.

I see the turn this is taking, but I still refuse to support either side. Both are fraught with savagery.
 
Two points are in order:

1) Hamas has carried out indiscriminate rocket attacks. Civilians have often been deliberate targets for Hamas.

Yeah but what does Hamas uses? Home-made rockets! Anyway the result is more important: Israel has killed fifty one times more civilians than the Hamas.
Israel has targeted Hamas' installations, security installations, etc. Those targets are legitimate military objectives.

The way they do it is out of any proportionality, that's why Israel is condemned worldwide.

2) Hamas has placed its facilities, weapons, and personnel in the midst of civilians. Hamas bears complete responsibility for civilian casualties that result when Hamas' installations, weapons, and operatives are targeted. The fact that the Gaza Strip is densely populated does not excuse Hamas of its responsibility. Hamas has been engaging in human shielding and it bears whole responsibility for the consequences of that practice.

THEY ARE POLICEMEN! It's impossible that they are not in the middle of civilians. And anyway it's useless to kill them, Hamas won't be destroyed with missiles.
 
Yeah but what does Hamas uses? Home-made rockets! Anyway the result is more important: Israel has killed fifty one times more civilians than the Hamas.


The way they do it is out of any proportionality, that's why Israel is condemned worldwide.



THEY ARE POLICEMEN! It's impossible that they are not in the middle of civilians. And anyway it's useless to kill them, Hamas won't be destroyed with missiles.

At some point the mothers of Gaza must decide they no longer wish to see their children die for Hamas.
 
Both sides have a religious mandate driving them towards unilateral occupation of the land. Israel just happens to be the more powerful. The problem won't end until one side is eliminated since both sides are hindered by blind ignorance.

In response to the claims that a few hundred dead is a small number... it's not really a small number in an area smaller than downtown Ottawa. Plus, violence begets more violence.

I see the turn this is taking, but I still refuse to support either side. Both are fraught with savagery.

Please post proof that Israel is unwilling to share occupancy of the territory.
 
If it was true, Hamas would have stopped violence a long time ago

You assume Hamas is both rationale or gives a damn about the lives of the "citizens" like we do. They do not. These thugs use civilians as shields, believe that every dead is a Martyr to Allah.
 
If it was true, Hamas would have stopped violence a long time ago

No, the costs incurred weren't great enough to make them stop.

Just as two atom bombs weren't enough to stop ALL the Japanese from wanting to continue fighting WWII. But it was enough to stop enough Japanese.

I'm not suggesting nukes but the costs incurred by the Palestinians up until now hasn't made them stop completely, though Israel's retaliatory strikes do work for a while.
 
Why, exaclty, is it that Israel is hitting Gaza?
 
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