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GM puts Volt engine plant on hold to conserve cash

TheNextEra said:
I am guessing you didn't see the link here:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...s-volt-engine-plant-hold-conserve-cash-4.html

The fact is many Electric companies are prepared for it, but the logic is not everyone is going to buy one right away so the electric grid is not going to be under strain right away.

This means upgrades and this means that nuclear power might finally be a viable and publicly accepted option in the future.

That's not a bad thing. The alternative is to remain a slave to foreign oil as a mjority. Which is better to research?
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My worry is the cost of charging up an electric car verses filling a car up up with gas.
 
jamesrage said:
My worry is the cost of charging up an electric car verses filling a car up up with gas.
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So let me get this straight. You are worrying whether it will cost more to use foreign gasoline than domestic electricity? That's a hoot. Either you don't know your electric bill to well, or you don't understand how much it costs to get gasoline from foreign countries. Let me know which.
 
TheNextEra said:
So let me get this straight. You are worrying whether it will cost more to use foreign gasoline than domestic electricity? That's a hoot. Either you don't know your electric bill to well, or you don't understand how much it costs to get gasoline from foreign countries. Let me know which.
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Its one thing when millions of Americans are just using their electricity to power the home electronics, appliances and heating and air conditioning and it is another when you throw in a car. I think a increased demand of electricity will have a impact of prices or at least give the electric companies an excuse to increase prices. At least with hybrids as far as I know the engine charges the batteries and doesn't plug into a socket. I do not know how much electricity it takes to charge an electric car , how many miles a dollars worth of electricity will take you or even if the cost of an electric car and the money spent on the electricity on the life of the car verses that of a gas powered car.
 
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jamesrage said:
Its one thing when millions of Americans are just using their electricity to power the home electronics, appliances and heating and air conditioning and it is another when you throw in a car. I think a increased demand of electric will have a impact of prices or at least give the electric companies an excuse to increase prices. At least with hybrids as far as I know the engine charges the batteries and doesn't plug into a socket.
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Again you are assuming everyone in America is going to switch when the electric car comes out.

That simply is a false assumption. Do you think if a new Corvette model came out everyone would be driving the corvette?

Not everyone is going to switch and it will give data to how much of an increase a hybrid will give and with other electric models coming out it will give an idea of what strain and improvements are needed, in all areas.

So let me get this straight, your idea to the dependence on foreign oil is to do nothing then right? If not, what do you suggest?

It's called progress. IT happens. And I'd rather this hapened than us remaining a slave to foreign oil.
 
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TheNextEra said:
Again you are assuming everyone in America is going to switch when the electric car comes out.
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I am assuming that everyone might slowly transition over to an electric car just like everyone slowly transitioned over from regular gas to unleaded.


That simply is a false assumption. Do you think if a new Corvette model came out everyone would be driving the corvette?
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Those are not comparable, people may need personal transportation to get to work,no one however needs a corvette,which is why most people do not own a corvette. If everyone is suckered into slowly transitioning to electric vehicles, everyone will need electricity to power your car.


So let me get this straight, your idea to the dependence on foreign oil is to do nothing then right? If not, what do you suggest?
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My idea of dependence from foreign oil is to tell all the ****ed up eco-retards to go **** themselves in the ass and let the oil companies drill off shore and ANWR,explore other oil technologies and to build more refineries.
 
TheNextEra said:
. . . Which is better to research?
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Coal.

My position is that if the power companies can produce such a vastly increased amount of energy, then they should be lowering our bills.


I don't think most people grasp how much energy would have to go into charging an electric car. If they think that their drier runs up the ole' electric meter, just wait 'til they get a bill after a month of charging up the car.

I really suspect that the whole project is a fancy swindle.
 
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jamesrage said:
I am assuming that everyone might slowly transition over to an electric car just like everyone slowly transitioned over from regular gas to unleaded.
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You hit the nail on the head SLOWLY. It will give an idea of what the electric grid in your area can handle and what it can't.

There are some power companies that have made their analysis know that they could handle a significant increase already, while others have an idea of what they need to expand. That is a good thing.

jamesrage said:
Those are not comparable, people may need personal transportation to get to work,no one however needs a corvette,which is why most people do not own a corvette. If everyone is suckered into slowly transitioning to electric vehicles, everyone will need electricity to power your car.
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And you assume EVERYONE is going to go to an electric hybrid/electric car over a good mileage gas vehicle. That is false. Many won't until they see what it can do.

jamesrage said:
My idea of dependence from foreign oil is to tell all the ****ed up eco-retards to go **** themselves in the ass and let the oil companies drill off shore and ANWR,explore other oil technologies and to build more refineries.
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Um we will not be able to drill at a sustainable amount domestically what can be obtained foreign. We simply don't have that much oil, so an alternative to oil is needed.

The sooner we start going away from oil when we can the better. That's not to say we can't get away from oil complete, but the less and less we use the more we can rely on domestically what we really do need.

Again, what I hear from you is the fairy tail that we can use the same amount of oil domestically as we use foreign and that simple is not true nor is it a solution to a fossil fuel that will eventually deplete itself.
 
Oftencold said:
Coal.

My position os that if the power companies can produce such a vastly increased amount of energy, then they should be lowering out bills.


I don't think most people grasp how much energy would have to go into charging an electric car. If they think that their drier run up the ole' electric meter, just wait 'til they get a bill after a month of charging up the car.

I really suspect that the whole project is a fancy swindle.
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Coal is a staple that will get us through a transition. Tell me is coal everlasting? Will we never run out of coal? other methods need to be thought of NOW, so in the future they can be implemented.
 
Gill said:
It's not that different. Battery packs are only warranted for 80,000 miles and cost around $2,300. to replace.
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And that is not all, regular batteries are assumed to last 50,000 miles but you might need to replaced them before, because the durability of their performance also depends of the use of them.

Besides, the money saved in gasoline is spent buying new sets of batteries for the hybrid cars, this is the common trick made by merchants, you end paying the same or more when you buy the new hybrid cars. Oh, and add the labor cost.

Gasoline cars rule.
 
conquer said:
And that is not all, regular batteries are assumed to last 50,000 miles but you might need to replaced them before, because the durability of their performance also depends of the use of them.
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Says who? There are guarantees longer than what you are saying.

conquer said:
Besides, the money saved in gasoline is spent buying new sets of batteries for the hybrid cars, this is the common trick made by merchants, you end paying the same or more when you buy the new hybrid cars. Oh, and add the labor cost.
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And like has been shown batteries last over 10 years for the car usage ones.

conquer said:
Gasoline cars rule.
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Yep with foreign oil. Yeehaw :doh

OPEC rules then. Tell us, when OPEC decided gas was roth about $4.25 per gallon what was our DOMESTIC gas charging?
 
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TheNextEra said:
Coal is a staple that will get us through a transition. Tell me is coal everlasting? Will we never run out of coal? other methods need to be thought of NOW, so in the future they can be implemented.
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Other methods are not currently viable. Nuclear fission is certainly not a good alternative, when the problem of nuclear waste is considered.

Coal my be transitional, but it can easily be transitional across several generations.

This means that for us, coal would be a permanent solution.
 
Oftencold said:
Other methods are not currently viable. Nuclear fission is certainly not a good alternative, when the problem of nuclear waste is considered.

Coal my be transitional, but it can easily be transitional across several generations.

This means that for us, coal would be a permanent solution.
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40% of electric companies are already saying their are ready for eclectic cars.

I hardly consider that being not viable. Others can be as well with nuclear power, which will be a viable power.

How is coal a permanent solution when it is not unlimited? Especially considering how pollutant coal is even under the best conditions.

I'd rather have nuclear than coal.

Or are you thinking coal is a permanent solution for YOUR generation and not others?
 
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TheNextEra said:
My point is the alternative is to do nothing. Which is better? We know cars are going to be built. We know right now we use oil.

Are you seriously telling me the best alternative to dependence on foreign oil is to do NOTHING? That is what has been done for decades.

So my point yet again is, what is better, to do nothing or try to do something about it?

Electric Cars and Electric Hybrids are the start. And it is a hell of a lot better than doing NOTHING and just waiting.
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Of course I'm NOT telling you to do nothing. Not sure where you got that notion :confused:. Just because I don't think electric cars are the answer, let alone a good start to ween ourselves off of oil, it doesn't mean I think we should sit on our arses. As I said before, this issue is near and dear to me, so I've done a lot of reading and research on the subject.

The best start would be to drive less. Lower speed limits. Ditch gas guzzlers and only drive fuel-efficient cars. Car pool or take public transportation. Light rail. And how about this? Instead of accepting the plastic bags that the grocery store hands out by the fistfull, bring your own every time you shop.

Those things alone would greatly reduce our consumption of oil, without having to worry about building a zillion power plants that need oil and pollute the environment anyway. All the while we become adept to conservation, R&D people come up with long-term solutions that make sense all around.
 
Middleground said:
The best start would be to drive less. Lower speed limits. Ditch gas guzzlers and only drive fuel-efficient cars. Car pool or take public transportation. Light rail. And how about this? Instead of accepting the plastic bags that the grocery store hands out by the fistfull, bring your own every time you shop.
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Huh, all those things still require buying foreign oil, how is that better than using domestic energy over foreign oil?

Remember the idea is to get off foreign oil, not just buy a little less.

Tell me do you really think that car manufacturers will make cars that are more efficient?

How much more efficient? 5 gallons per mile max more than what they are now? Look at what they have done so far.

Sorry I disagree I'd rather use domestic energy than foreign oil. You seem to want to use ALL foreign oil.
 
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Khayembii Communique said:
They're going to go under anyways; might as well make as many environmentally friendly cars as possible in that time period.:)
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Good grief! What makes you think that an electric car is "environmentally friendly"?

Your just moving energy production for the engine to a power plant somewhere, with a loss of energy in transmission and charging.

Plus, the exotic metals for the huge batteries must be mined somewhere with the environmental issues that brings.
 
TheNextEra said:
Huh, all those things still require buying foreign oil, how is that better than using domestic energy over foreign oil?
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The domestic energy is not necessarily domestic. It takes oil to run 'em. As I previously posted:

People tend to think of "alternatives to oil" as somehow independent from oil. In reality, the alternatives to oil are more accurately described as "derivatives of oil." It takes massive amounts of oil and other scarce resources to locate and mine the raw materials (silver, copper, platinum, uranium, etc.) necessary to build solar panels, windmills, and nuclear power plants. It takes more oil to construct these alternatives and even more oil to distribute them, maintain them, and adapt current infrastructure to run on them.


Remember the idea is to get off foreign oil, not just buy a little less.
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Yes. But it will take time. Consume less and there will be less needed to buy. BTW, the United States gets most of it's foreign oil from Canada.

Tell me do you really think that car manufacturers will make cars that are more efficient?
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Yup. Toyota, Honda and Hyundai, to name a few. My car takes 40 litres, and I fill up once every 2 weeks. I also do a lot of walking and take public transportation when I can. When gas was $1.50 a litre here, it didn't affect me much.

How much more efficient? 5 gallons per mile max more than what they are now? Look at what they have done so far.
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Take a look at how they build cars in Europe. Some get 60 kms to the litre.

Sorry I disagree I'd rather use domestic energy than foreign oil. You seem to want to use ALL foreign oil.
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Domestic energy can be just as foreign as foreign oil.
 
Oftencold said:
Good grief! What makes you think that an electric car is "environmentally friendly"?

Your just moving energy production for the engine to a power plant somewhere, with a loss of energy in transmission and charging.

Plus, the exotic metals for the huge batteries must be mined somewhere with the environmental issues that brings.
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Umm so your option is to do nothing about it and just do the norm.

Even though it is proven that Electric Cars and Hybrids can help get us off foreign oil as a ENTIRE fuel source.

I take it you are for only two things, oil and coal, because you think those are permanent to your generation. How generous of you.

Thing again, I am not saying that Hybrids and electric will get us off entierly, but it is a good start.

Your idea is to just do what we have because coal and oil are premanent to your generation right?
 
Middleground said:
Domestic energy can be just as foreign as foreign oil.
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It's domestic not foreign. It is American Made. There is a difference.

To the rest of what you post, what do you suggest, the same as always?

You want to just remain a slave to foreign oil.

Plain and simple. You may not have to endure it fully but your children, or your children's children will have to endure it. Are you only concerned with yourself?

Oil is not permanent. Coal is not permanent. So do you only care what you have to deal with and not the future?

Future technologies need to be thought of now. If you don't care, we get that. If you only care about yourself now, not what your children may have to deal with, then they will deal with worse than what you have now. This is the same thing we have dealt with each generation.
 
IMO the Auto Company's primarily Chrysler and GM are attempting to force the Government to bail them out.
They have thus far not offered a single restructuring plan, it seems to be that they are saying to Government Pay up or else.
I say let them go under, chapter 11 bankruptcy then perhaps we may get Companies that are properly run.
Hey, why not give over control of GM & Chrysler to the Unions, let them sort it out?
 
TheNextEra said:
40% of electric companies are already saying their are ready for eclectic cars.

I hardly consider that being not viable. Others can be as well with nuclear power, which will be a viable power.
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I have serious doubts about this, but if you say so.

TheNextEra said:
How is coal a permanent solution when it is not unlimited? Especially considering how pollutant coal is even under the best conditions.
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As I said, it is permanent for us, because the supply will far exceed our lifetimes.
TheNextEra said:
I'd rather have nuclear than coal.
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That is unfortunate, because I would not. I rather doubt that several thousand generations of our posterity (exceeding the length of history so far recorded by at least an order of magnitude,) would appreciate being handed masses of nuclear waste to safeguard so that we could operate our electric go-carts for a while.

How many vital human activities do you suppose ever go for even a single generation without a major failure? Why would you suppose that people living a quarter of a million years or more from now would continue to be good custodians of our poison? Would they even remember to safe guard or avoid the stuff?

I know of few actives that make more presumptuous assumptions, or demands upon the goodwill of strangers than the generation of energy by nuclear fission.

TheNextEra said:
Or are you thinking coal is a permanent solution for YOUR generation and not others?
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I said that rather plainly. It would be viable solution for a number of generations
 
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Oftencold said:
As I said, it is permanent for us, because the supply will far exceed our lifetimes.
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That's not permanent just because you don't have to deal with it. And show me proof that is is multiple generations.

Oftencold said:
That is unfortunate, because I would not. I rather doubt that several thousand generations of our posterity (exceeding the length of history so far recorded by at least an order of magnitude,) would appreciate being handed masses of nuclear waste to safeguard so that we could operate our electric go-carts for a while
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So your solution is to remain a slave to coal and oil because it is convenient to you. That is what is sad.

Oftencold said:
How many vital human activities do you suppose ever go for even a single generation without a major failure? Why would you suppose that people living a quarter of a million years or more from now would continue to be good custodians of our poison? Would they even remember safe guard or avoid the stuff?
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So your solution is to do nothing.

Oftencold said:
I said that rather plainly. It would be viable solution for a number of generations
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No if won't be, but because it doesn't concern you, you don't care. That is what is really sad.

Coal is a pollutant. No matter what you may think.
 
jujuman13 said:
IMO the Auto Company's primarily Chrysler and GM are attempting to force the Government to bail them out.
They have thus far not offered a single restructuring plan, it seems to be that they are saying to Government Pay up or else.
I say let them go under, chapter 11 bankruptcy then perhaps we may get Companies that are properly run.
Hey, why not give over control of GM & Chrysler to the Unions, let them sort it out?
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Are you boycotting EVERY bank and EVERY loan company that recieved a bailout from the government? Just curious.

I assume if you are against the bailouts you have cut every credit card you have and every loan you have with banks and credit card companies that received a bailout from the government.

So what banks and credit card companies are you still with? I am sure some of them are with the government bailout in some sort of fashion, care to list which banks and which credit card companies you are still with?
 
TheNextEra said:
Umm so your option is to do nothing about it and just do the norm.

Even though it is proven that Electric Cars and Hybrids can help get us off foreign oil as a ENTIRE fuel source.

I take it you are for only two things, oil and coal, because you think those are permanent to your generation. How generous of you.

Thing again, I am not saying that Hybrids and electric will get us off entierly, but it is a good start.

Your idea is to just do what we have because coal and oil are premanent to your generation right?
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I've answered the generational point you bring up in another post under this topic, but maybe not in a way you'll appreciate.

What I am for, is to use what is currently available and allow brilliant minds and rapacious souls to bring top market viable options at some point in the future. I am against premature "feel good" detours into half baked schemes that provide little benefit.
 
Oftencold said:
I've answered the generational point you bring up in another post under this topic, but maybe not in a way you'll appreciate.

What I am for, is to use what is currently available and allow brilliant minds and rapacious souls to bring top market viable options at some point in the future. I am against premature "feel good" detours into half baked schemes that provide little benefit.
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Sorry but that isn't a future plan. What you are waiting for is some miraculous plan that gets us off entirely off of oil, that's not going to happen.

What is going to happen is technology that happens in steps. Electric hybrids is the start and so is electric vehicles. They aren't the solution but they are the steps in the right direction versus staying with the norm or waiting for some miraculous energy fairy that gets us off oil or coal that you seem to want because it will have to happen fully after your lifetime and you don't seem to care.

We have to deal with realty and work towards steps.

The whole, "it ain't going to happen in my lifetime so I don't care" mentality has to stop. That is the big oil mentality.
 
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TheNextEra said:
Sorry but that isn't a future plan. What you are waiting for is some miraculous plan that gets us off entirely off of oil, that's not going to happen.

What is going to happen is technology that happens in steps. Electric hybrids is the start and so is electric vehicles. They aren't the solution but they are the steps in the right direction versus staying with the norm or waiting for some miraculous energy fairy that gets us off oil or coal that you seem to want because it will have to happen fully after your lifetime and you don't seem to care.

We have to deal with realty and work towards steps.

The whole, "it ain't going to happen in my lifetime so I don't care" mentality has to stop. That is the big oil mentality.
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I rather like to think that it won't happen in other people's lifetime.

However you miss my point. I require no great fantasy to see the possibilities of viable energy solutions. But little electric cars just aren't a good choice. Not unless near limitless clean energy can be produced.

There are possibilities for this however. One of the best, is orbital solar cells transmitting power to the surface in the form of microwave lasers. (In a pinch they'd make great weapons too!)

Such things are just beyond current technology, but far beyond current economic pressures.
 
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