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US car bail-out talks 'collapse'

There's no reason why the workers should have to pay for the errors caused by irresponsible capitalists. If the capitalists can't handle running the show then give them the boot.

Can't. They're in Japan.
 
The error was paying them so much that the company was uncompetitive. If they want to keep their jobs they'll take a pay cut.

Yeah, and then they should move to East Asia and take another one. Maybe they should sacrifice all of their benefits as well. Oh, and get rid of the 8 hour work day, that's hurting production.:roll:

If the capitalists can't handle paying the workers the full value of their labour then perhaps they shouldn't be in control.

I'd rather see the union busted than the automakers.

The blue collar guy loses again.

:confused:

There's plenty of blame to pass around, but I certainly wouldn't put the unions at the top of the list. Nary a bitch I've hear about the executives and CEOs of the NA big 3 who collected millions upon millions of dollars of salary and bonuses for doing the absolute worse job imaginable. If the workers were making them that poor, how do you explain this bonus trough?

But, it's the union's fault!:lol:
 
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Funny how the unions get the blame here, when in fact it was the Republicans that killed the deal...
... because the unions didnt agree to concessions.
 
Yeah, and then they should move to East Asia and take another one. Maybe they should sacrifice all of their benefits as well. Oh, and get rid of the 8 hour work day, that's hurting production.:roll:
Strawman much? Where did I suggest any of this? Competing companies have their factories located in America and hire American workers to make their cars.

If the capitalists can't handle paying the workers the full value of their labour then perhaps they shouldn't be in control.
They're paying more than the full value of their labor. That's the main reason they're failing.
 
If the capitalists can't handle paying the workers the full value of their labour then perhaps they shouldn't be in control.
The part your missing here is that the 'full value of their labor' is measured by the market, not the people getting paid.

If someone will do the same work for $5/hr, then the "full value" of the work is NOT the $35/hr the unions/workers expect.

And, if the union holds out for that $35/hr, they have no one to blame but themselves when the jobs go to the people working for $5/hr
 
The part your missing here is that the 'full value of their labor' is measured by the market, not the people getting paid.

If someone will do the same work for $5/hr, then the "full value" of the work is NOT the $35/hr the unions/workers expect.

And, if the union holds out for that $35/hr, they have no one to blame but themselves when the jobs go to the people working for $5/hr

They do that in China.

Hey, I bet if they started paying US workers $5 an hour, you will be able to find replacements who'll do it for $2. Particularly, the poorer areas. Cool how that works.

Oh, but don't forget the executive multi-million bonuses for devising such a shrewd business plan!
 
You know what's the silly thing? Even if they did get this money, given their current losses - and I can't see the car industry improving to a good standard until at least Q2 of 2010 - they'd chomp through this money in months. They'd essentially be prolonging the inevitable.
 
They do that in China.

Hey, I bet if they started paying US workers $5 an hour, you will be able to find replacements who'll do it for $2. Particularly, the poorer areas. Cool how that works.

Oh, but don't forget the executive multi-million bonuses for devising such a shrewd business plan!
Fantasy:
Unions can artificially inflate the price of labor regardless of the global labor market
Reality:
The global labor market decides the 'fair value' of labor.

You dont have to like it, but you DO need to accept the fact that competition lowers price and increases quality and prodictivity, and this fact applies to labor as much as anything/everything else.
 
They're paying more than the full value of their labor. That's the main reason they're failing.

If that was the case then they wouldn't be paying their CEO's and upper-level executives millions of dollars.

The part your missing here is that the 'full value of their labor' is measured by the market, not the people getting paid.

If someone will do the same work for $5/hr, then the "full value" of the work is NOT the $35/hr the unions/workers expect.

And, if the union holds out for that $35/hr, they have no one to blame but themselves when the jobs go to the people working for $5/hr

If you want to get into a discussion as to the origin of value, then feel free to open a thread about it in the Economics forum. Of course, we could always just take your position to its logical conclusion and state that women and children working 12 hours a day for $20 they are being paid fairly because it was determined by the market.

You dont have to like it, but you DO need to accept the fact that competition lowers price and increases quality and prodictivity, and this fact applies to labor as much as anything/everything else.

Workers compete because they are put in a position where they must do so to survive. Capitalists compete because they must do so to increase their revenue to increase profit and therefore increase the amount of capital they can reinvest to perpetuate the process.
 
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Are you trying to assert that the work of someone on an assembly line is as important as the work of a CEO?

No, I am asserting that the work of someone on an assembly line is fundamentally necessary whereas the work of a CEO is fundamentally unnecessary.
 
If that was the case then they wouldn't be paying their CEO's and upper-level executives millions of dollars.
You can whne about the CEOs and capitalists all you want - it doesnt in any way address the validity of what I said -- in a global market, unions do not dictate 'fair value', the global market itself does.

Workers compete because they are put in a position where they must do so to survive.
Welcome to reality.
 
Fantasy:
Unions can artificially inflate the price of labor regardless of the global labor market
Reality:
The global labor market decides the 'fair value' of labor.

You dont have to like it, but you DO need to accept the fact that competition lowers price and increases quality and prodictivity, and this fact applies to labor as much as anything/everything else.

How much per hour does Toyota pay their American employees comapred to Ford and/or GM?
 
No, I am asserting that the work of someone on an assembly line is fundamentally necessary whereas the work of a CEO is fundamentally unnecessary.

Which is completely false. They aren't getting paid beaucoup bucks for no reason.
 
The part your missing here is that the 'full value of their labor' is measured by the market, not the people getting paid.

If someone will do the same work for $5/hr, then the "full value" of the work is NOT the $35/hr the unions/workers expect.

And, if the union holds out for that $35/hr, they have no one to blame but themselves when the jobs go to the people working for $5/hr

....I read this and wondered if your opinion is consistent when it comes to the work illegals do.
 
....I read this and wondered if your opinion is consistent when it comes to the work illegals do.
Wonder all you want.
 
Are you trying to assert that the work of someone on an assembly line is as important as the work of a CEO?

Are they worth the millions upon million of dollar bonuses awarded to themselves for the stellar job they've been doing? There seems to be no control of their trough, as they are "the deciders." Shoot, I want a job that will award me a big-assed bonus for doing a crappy job.
 
Are they worth the millions upon million of dollar bonuses awarded to themselves for the stellar job they've been doing?
They are if someone pays them that much.

But, as the issue here is -union- concession, reference to the pay of CEOs is noting more thwn obfuscation and misdrection.
 
I don't know. But they're still a healthy company, even in these economic times. If they pay their American workers the same, how could that be?
Could be any number of reasons.
 
Are they worth the millions upon million of dollar bonuses awarded to themselves for the stellar job they've been doing? There seems to be no control of their trough, as they are "the deciders." Shoot, I want a job that will award me a big-assed bonus for doing a crappy job.

If I were on the company's board of directors I'd say probably not, but I'm not so their bosses are the ones who decide.
 
Which is completely false. They aren't getting paid beaucoup bucks for no reason.

That depends on what perspective you approach the question from. From the perspective of a capitalist, yes, the job of a CEO, that is to increase revenue, is necessary, as is the entire bureaucracy of management. Of course, it should be obvious that I'm not concerned with maximizing revenue.

In the process of the sustainability of human society through production, their job is utterly unnecessary, as it has been historically shown many times that workers are capable (in fact, more so, as generally when factories are appropriated by its workers their productivity increases) of self-management.
 
They are if someone pays them that much.

If that is truly your opinion, then I don't understand why you have issue with the unions.

In your own words:

They are (the union workers) if someone pays them that much (GM, Chrysler, Ford).
 
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