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Gays movement without support

Whoa! I think you have that ass backwards!

Public school is a failure. Why is it that so many people graduate and can't read or give change without looking at the cash register to see how much to give back?:roll:

I think that has more to do with the lack of care given by teachers due to their low pay coupled with the fact that the youth are generally pretty complacent and lazy because they have so much to distract them; ie. tv, movies, videogames, internet, etc. It has to do with the times that we are living in, not the public school system. These problems you listed weren't as problematic 10 or more years ago.
 
strange, tho, with all that leftist brainwashing we are still about 50% conservatives...:2razz:
I never heard any of it, but my kids heard a little. I told them to ignore the BS and learn the truth for themselves. They are moderates as well....recognizing that truth can come from any side of an issue, as can lies...

That's because they have parents that care what their kids are learning.;)
 
That's because they have parents that care what their kids are learning.;)

It could also have something to do with the fact that very few schools actually try to indoctrinate the kids with political views and that when it does happen it's very little. Political views don't fit into every single facet of curriculum that is taught at public school.
 
You get out of education what you put into it....and lots of kids put in very little. We will always need minimum wage workers for the easy jobs. Public school prepared my kids for college well enough, but then, they had mean parents.:lol:

Mean parents....GOOD!:mrgreen:
 
I think that has more to do with the lack of care given by teachers due to their low pay coupled with the fact that the youth are generally pretty complacent and lazy because they have so much to distract them; ie. tv, movies, videogames, internet, etc. It has to do with the times that we are living in, not the public school system. These problems you listed weren't as problematic 10 or more years ago.

It figures that sooner or later someone would blame the teachers. I have experience there, and can say that SOME teachers suck. BUT, for the most part, it is the lack of parental involvement.
No teacher is able to undo in the classroom what the parents screwed up at home.
The biggest problem is with dropouts. We should not allow that to happen. They can test out, but not drop out....
Now back to our regularly scheduled program, Gays movement without support.:lol:
 
It could also have something to do with the fact that very few schools actually try to indoctrinate the kids with political views and that when it does happen it's very little. Political views don't fit into every single facet of curriculum that is taught at public school.

You wouldn't believe the crap my neighbor's kids told me....:roll:
 
I already know Japanese. Besides, my career (scientist) puts me well in contact with the international community. Our birth rate is at replacement and with immigration we are slightly above.

Our birth rate is what, 2.3. Replacement rate is 2.1%. And it's been falling in the US for decades now.

Also, legal immigration may be slightly above. The problem is that illegal immigration is about to amnestied which will blow out of the water our immigration rate.

Now, this knee-jerk reactionary "learn a bunch of new languages" blah blah blah may work if we were talking completely open immigration; but that's not the case.

I would say that legalizing 12-20 million illegals constitutes open immigration. Any time limits on legal immigration are discussed the multiculti's go up in arms calling the US racist and discriminatory. Believing that the US has the will to control immigration is a fool's belief.

We can increase immigration from its current standing and still leave time for assimilation into our society.

That works if assimilation was actuall a priority. As we see the federal government, via judicial fiat, constantly expanding the number of recognized minority groups, providing government documents in multiple languages, etc., there's no incentivize or really need to assmiliate. Hell, in addition to breathing, reproduction, walking being defined as "major life functions" by the ADA effective 1/1/09, I don't think it will be soon before we see that the inability to speak English is classified as a covered disability requiring employers and schools to accomodate. :roll:

We have enough people wishing to immigrate that we can always take from that pool (plus immigration is good for a society).

Only if we assmiliate them. And efforts to assimilate are being severely diluted. We need only look to this past year's Muslim riots in France to see how "immigration is good for society" is working out. You cannot seriously argue that assimilation programs here in the US are being strenghtened.

Removing the entanglement of state and marriage can only force us to reevaluate our overall tax policies and would remove the same sex marriage problem (as you can then nix the marriage license and return marriage fully to the realm of the Church).

The Netherlands is blasting full-ahead on such an endeavor. Give it some time, of course, but I don't see the Netherlands birth rate bouncing back and, more importantly, "supplemental" immigration is going to fundamentally alter that small nation's cultural foundation and probably not for the better.
 
It figures that sooner or later someone would blame the teachers. I have experience there, and can say that SOME teachers suck. BUT, for the most part, it is the lack of parental involvement.
No teacher is able to undo in the classroom what the parents screwed up at home.
The biggest problem is with dropouts. We should not allow that to happen. They can test out, but not drop out....
Now back to our regularly scheduled program, Gays movement without support.:lol:

Oh. I forgot about that!:doh
 
You wouldn't believe the crap my neighbor's kids told me....:roll:

happens in sunday school, too....all kinds of people out there with all kinds of strange ideas, which is why we need public schools that are better managed. The bad teachers and administrators get fired, the lazy kids get permanent detention until they get their work done, and the bad parents pay hefty fines for attempting to raise future welfare recipients.
 
It figures that sooner or later someone would blame the teachers. I have experience there, and can say that SOME teachers suck. BUT, for the most part, it is the lack of parental involvement.
No teacher is able to undo in the classroom what the parents screwed up at home.
The biggest problem is with dropouts. We should not allow that to happen. They can test out, but not drop out....
Now back to our regularly scheduled program, Gays movement without support.:lol:

I'm not really placing the blame on the teachers as much as the low pay that they get.
 
I think that has more to do with the lack of care given by teachers due to their low pay

Low pay? I recall a Detroit News survey of professional occupations to compare teacher pay with pay of other professional occupations and controlling for actual working time - conclusion: teacher are smack dab in the middle.

coupled with the fact that the youth are generally pretty complacent and lazy because they have so much to distract them; ie. tv, movies, videogames, internet, etc.

And where did that complacency come from?

I'd say from a culture that now values entertainment and leisure more than raising a family. That flows directly from the sexual revolution and the mass entry of women into the workplace. Women are no longer at home raising children if they have them in the first place. Hence, with mothers and fathers gone, kids are raised by totally anonymous people. And what do these children do early on? Nothing that is structured. Nothing that is associating development with activity.
 
Only if we assmiliate them. And efforts to assimilate are being severely diluted. We need only look to this past year's Muslim riots in France to see how "immigration is good for society" is working out. You cannot seriously argue that assimilation programs here in the US are being strenghtened.


You do realize that Europe as a whole alienates their immigrants right? At the very least here in the US we (as a country) help immigrants assimilate into US society. Immigrants here can become full US citizens, unlike those in Europe who will be always be viewed by society and the government as an outsider. In addition the job market among the young is terrible in France, thats why those riots were happening.
 
BUT, for the most part, it is the lack of parental involvement.

Bam!

This is most acute in minority hoods where fathers are rarely around, mothers must work to survive, and as a consequence, kids are rudderless. No values, morals, norms being passed along, no emphasis on education, etc.
 
I'm not really placing the blame on the teachers as much as the low pay that they get.

starting pay needs to increase, but increments need to be less. my wife retired very well after 28 years of teaching, and her pay at the end of her career was very good. but starting pay certainly is a disincentive to enter the field of education....
 
Low pay? I recall a Detroit News survey of professional occupations to compare teacher pay with pay of other professional occupations and controlling for actual working time - conclusion: teacher are smack dab in the middle.

Yes, low pay. Considering the importance of their jobs they should be getting a lot more than they do. Obviously the pay scale differs from place to place, but when you compare the wages that they get compared to college professors it's downright absurd. I'm not saying they should get paid the same as college professors, but the differences in pay there are just astounding to me.

And where did that complacency come from?

I'd say from a culture that now values entertainment and leisure more than raising a family. That flows directly from the sexual revolution and the mass entry of women into the workplace. Women are no longer at home raising children if they have them in the first place. Hence, with mothers and fathers gone, kids are raised by totally anonymous people. And what do these children do early on? Nothing that is structured. Nothing that is associating development with activity.

The complacency came from a lot of places. A lot of people complain about the 60's, but at least the youth then had some motivation to go out and get stuff done. I think a lot of that was not only due to the Vietnam war but how good and revolutionary the music was back then. The music that is popular now is just dreadful. We are stuck in a soulless vacuum right now culturally. And I don't buy for a single second that it's a result of the sexual revolution. Conservative values do not solve everything.
 
Our birth rate is what, 2.3. Replacement rate is 2.1%. And it's been falling in the US for decades now.

Also, legal immigration may be slightly above. The problem is that illegal immigration is about to amnestied which will blow out of the water our immigration rate.

It will fall a little bit because as we become more modernized and place more emphasis on jobs and career, birth rate will naturally decrease. We've done that even with tax "incentives".

As for illegal immigration, I'm not arguing that point. I think illegal immegration needs some serious cracking down on. We need to control our boarders a bit better. But we can do wonders with legal immigration.

I would say that legalizing 12-20 million illegals constitutes open immigration. Any time limits on legal immigration are discussed the multiculti's go up in arms calling the US racist and discriminatory. Believing that the US has the will to control immigration is a fool's belief.

I wasn't talking to that. But as to the idea that we don't want to control immigration I think to some level that is true. And that's not so much facilitated through the People as much as it is facilitated through the politicians and the government. If they don't fix the problem, they get to leave it as a talking point. Yell about what the other side is or isn't doing, meanwhile making no real effort to solve the problem.

That works if assimilation was actuall a priority. As we see the federal government, via judicial fiat, constantly expanding the number of recognized minority groups, providing government documents in multiple languages, etc., there's no incentivize or really need to assmiliate. Hell, in addition to breathing, reproduction, walking being defined as "major life functions" by the ADA effective 1/1/09, I don't think it will be soon before we see that the inability to speak English is classified as a covered disability requiring employers and schools to accomodate. :roll:

I think the practical problems with illegal immigration and assimilation is definitely something that would need to be reproached. Assimilation is the goal, it's great to have immigration and it's good for a nation to have it. But you can't lose your national identity because of it. There is a proper way to do it and it would necessitate an overall regulation and prosecuting of illegal immigration while encouraging overall legal immigration.

Only if we assmiliate them. And efforts to assimilate are being severely diluted. We need only look to this past year's Muslim riots in France to see how "immigration is good for society" is working out. You cannot seriously argue that assimilation programs here in the US are being strenghtened.

Some of that is cultural. In France they don't take so kindly to Muslims. Those people are put in the poorest sector and they are given huge roadblocks to proper assimilation and participation in the economy and improving their lots. You can't really do that and expect things to come out rosey. But that's the way France's socialist structure works and because of that a certain sector of their population is purposefully kept poor and without access to other parts of the economy and society. I'm not so sure we would have the same problems here as we take our freedom of religion quite seriously (as well we should). I think that if you set the structure up right and allow for proper legal immigration with abilities to actually assimilate; then you can easily obtain those goals.

The Netherlands is blasting full-ahead on such an endeavor. Give it some time, of course, but I don't see the Netherlands birth rate bouncing back and, more importantly, "supplemental" immigration is going to fundamentally alter that small nation's cultural foundation and probably not for the better.

Drawing from immigrants is not a bad thing. You need it, it helps prevent stagnation. Stagnation is slow death. I agree that there are problems with the way we currently address issues such as illegal immigration and assimilation; those would have to be addressed. But that's all part of the proper solution to the problem.
 
You do realize that Europe as a whole alienates their immigrants right? At the very least here in the US we (as a country) help immigrants assimilate into US society. Immigrants here can become full US citizens, unlike those in Europe who will be always be viewed by society and the government as an outsider. In addition the job market among the young is terrible in France, thats why those riots were happening.

I'm not so sure the immigrants you are talking about want to assimilate into their society.
 
starting pay needs to increase, but increments need to be less. my wife retired very well after 28 years of teaching, and her pay at the end of her career was very good. but starting pay certainly is a disincentive to enter the field of education....

I love the low pay argument...I have a bro-in-law that after finishing a Master's program in curriculum development in what is essentially a correspondence program here in Detroit, he'll be earning nearly 70K. And he's a gym/health teacher. We're not even talking reading, writing, math teacher, but a gym teacher.

I have nother pal from college that's essentially doing the same thing...but getting a PhD in administration while attending class maybe four times a semester for three hours per session. He's a high school civis teacher. Upon receiving the degree...bam - 76K with three more steps in that pay range.

Sorry, the low pay bit goes nowhere. Just as low government funding for education goes nowhere when we realize that highest-spending school districts like DC fail to grad 50% of its students.
 
I'm not so sure the immigrants you are talking about want to assimilate into their society.

Well my point is, its not fair to compare Europe's immigration problems to ours. We as a nation welcome immigrants while Europe still has a pretty shaky history towards outsiders. The whole issue of letting Turkey join the EU would be somewhat of a modern day example.
 
Yes, low pay. Considering the importance of their jobs they should be getting a lot more than they do.

I don't get it. That type of reasoning wuld have the assembly line guy outearning the engineers because, well, the car company couldn't make money without the assembly line guy. In other words, it's a recipe for ever-increasing pay simply for increasing pay.

Obviously the pay scale differs from place to place, but when you compare the wages that they get compared to college professors it's downright absurd. I'm not saying they should get paid the same as college professors, but the differences in pay there are just astounding to me.

This is like the fair share argument about taxes. It should be a fair share, but you refuse to identify what is fair. In this case, you recognize they shouldn't be paid the same but you won't identify what the appropriate variance would be.

The complacency came from a lot of places. A lot of people complain about the 60's, but at least the youth then had some motivation to go out and get stuff done. I think a lot of that was not only due to the Vietnam war but how good and revolutionary the music was back then. The music that is popular now is just dreadful. We are stuck in a soulless vacuum right now culturally. And I don't buy for a single second that it's a result of the sexual revolution. Conservative values do not solve everything.

Notwithstanding the bogus hit on conservative values, you're discounting the effects of the sexual revolution which shifted importance from family to individual gratification. In a nutshell.

As for a soulless cultural vacuum, I agree. But notice where the attacks on culture are coming from...feminists, multiculturalists, racialists, etc.
 
It will fall a little bit because as we become more modernized and place more emphasis on jobs and career, birth rate will naturally decrease. We've done that even with tax "incentives".

I know.

As for illegal immigration, I'm not arguing that point. I think illegal immegration needs some serious cracking down on. We need to control our boarders a bit better. But we can do wonders with legal immigration.

Agreed.

I wasn't talking to that. But as to the idea that we don't want to control immigration I think to some level that is true. And that's not so much facilitated through the People as much as it is facilitated through the politicians and the government. If they don't fix the problem, they get to leave it as a talking point. Yell about what the other side is or isn't doing, meanwhile making no real effort to solve the problem.

Good point. But I cited it as a way to illustrate the lack of national will to control legal immigration. I think I'm on point with that.

I think the practical problems with illegal immigration and assimilation is definitely something that would need to be reproached. Assimilation is the goal, it's great to have immigration and it's good for a nation to have it. But you can't lose your national identity because of it. There is a proper way to do it and it would necessitate an overall regulation and prosecuting of illegal immigration while encouraging overall legal immigration.

Agreed.

Some of that is cultural. In France they don't take so kindly to Muslims. Those people are put in the poorest sector and they are given huge roadblocks to proper assimilation and participation in the economy and improving their lots. You can't really do that and expect things to come out rosey. But that's the way France's socialist structure works and because of that a certain sector of their population is purposefully kept poor and without access to other parts of the economy and society. I'm not so sure we would have the same problems here as we take our freedom of religion quite seriously (as well we should). I think that if you set the structure up right and allow for proper legal immigration with abilities to actually assimilate; then you can easily obtain those goals.

Fair point re: France, and I agree.

Drawing from immigrants is not a bad thing. You need it, it helps prevent stagnation. Stagnation is slow death. I agree that there are problems with the way we currently address issues such as illegal immigration and assimilation; those would have to be addressed. But that's all part of the proper solution to the problem.

I agree if we're allowing in immigrants that enhance our culture, our creativity, etc. In other words, I agree if we get to select who comes here. However, to date, all I see is opposition and resistance from the Left to be so selective.
 
I love the low pay argument...I have a bro-in-law that after finishing a Master's program in curriculum development in what is essentially a correspondence program here in Detroit, he'll be earning nearly 70K. And he's a gym/health teacher. We're not even talking reading, writing, math teacher, but a gym teacher.

I have nother pal from college that's essentially doing the same thing...but getting a PhD in administration while attending class maybe four times a semester for three hours per session. He's a high school civis teacher. Upon receiving the degree...bam - 76K with three more steps in that pay range.

Sorry, the low pay bit goes nowhere. Just as low government funding for education goes nowhere when we realize that highest-spending school districts like DC fail to grad 50% of its students.

Yeah, I don't think the pay is too low.

The schools need to stop being intimidated by idiot parents. "If you don't like how we discipline your child then teach him yourself!"

If they're not being taught at home then make the school hours longer. We've been blaming lack of parental involvement for decades and it's time to realize it will never happen.
 
Yeah, I don't think the pay is too low.

The schools need to stop being intimidated by idiot parents. "If you don't like how we discipline your child then teach him yourself!"

Well, that blame partly lies with the courts and with...I don't know what to blame it on...but the litigous society we have become. Maybe the courts deserve this blame, too, for not permitting such cases to remain in court and be resolved in court.

If they're not being taught at home then make the school hours longer. We've been blaming lack of parental involvement for decades and it's time to realize it will never happen.

It won't happen because as a culture we have abaonded traditional values that have the family at the center of our lives. Now it's about promiscuity, 'cuz, you know, if you get pregnant, just abort it, right?
 
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