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Atheists take aim at Christmas

Well, here's how I see it. From what I've gathered in your posts you have a problem with people saying Happy Holidays. Happy Holidays is an all-inclusive statement. Merry Christmas isn't. Merry Christmas references a specific holiday of a specific religion. I don't think it's offensive to tell someone that. However, I fail to see what problem there is with saying something like "Happy Holidays" instead to be more inclusive just in case they aren't Christian. I see it as a courteous gesture more than anything.

I see, so my comment that you were directly responding to didn't lead you to that conclusion. But your presumption about my problems did. Okay.

You have failed to demonstrate how saying happy Holidays is more inclusive.

On the other hand, I have demonstrated, using the prior polls as a proxy, that a clear majority of Americans find using Happy Holidays is going in the wrong direction. And I would go further to argue that Christians certainly don't feel included when Merry Christmas is replaced with a secular non-holiday expression. Otherwise, why be bothered with it?
 
I see, so my comment that you were directly responding to didn't lead you to that conclusion. But your presumption about my problems did. Okay.

You have failed to demonstrate how saying happy Holidays is more inclusive.

The fact that it doesn't specify which holiday makes it more inclusive. A Jewish person could be told that and have it apply to them just as a Christian could.

On the other hand, I have demonstrated, using the prior polls as a proxy, that a clear majority of Americans find using Happy Holidays is going in the wrong direction. And I would go further to argue that Christians certainly don't feel included when Merry Christmas is replaced with a secular non-holiday expression. Otherwise, why be bothered with it?

I think history has shown that the majority isn't always necessarily right.
 
And lets not forget that this attack on Christmas/Christianity is exclusive to changing Merry Christmas to Happy Holidays.

Here we see Christmas being banned at UNC.

This ain't a recent develoment, either.

Recall the 2005 California State University - Sacramento ban against Christmas decorations because they represent "religious discrimination" and "ethnic insensitivity."

I think it's stupid to ban people from saying Merry Christmas for fear of religious discrimination just as it is stupid to get pissy about people saying Happy Holidays.
 
I don't think it's an issue of whether it includes them. I think that a lot of people are offended that Christianity doesn't have the limelight when that statement is made. I think they also fear that people are doing it for purely PC reasons.

First, what you think motivates them is only your thoughts. You're unfairly maligning their motivations simply based on your perception or frustrations.

Second, it is for PC reasons. That's why CSU - Sacramento banned Christmas decorations. Aparently, such decorations were ethnically insensitive. :roll:

It isn't an attack on Christianity. If it were an attack on Christianity they would be trying to eradicate these things from existence, not just from public arenas.

They're relegating religious celebration to behind doors by not permitting their display in the public square. Just look at various states where the Ten Commandments were removed.

It is manufactured. It has become nothing more than an annual topic interest for Bill O'Reilly to prattle on about.

Really? So CSU - Sacramention banning Christmas decorations in 2005 and UNC - Charlotte doing the same in 2008 is meaningless, huh?
 
I've heard some folks say there should be an aetheist holiday that they can celebrate however they like and leave CHRISTMAS alone.

Their day could be April 1st.

I agree with both ideas.

I guess this is a sad attempt at humor? :roll:
 
First, what you think motivates them is only your thoughts. You're unfairly maligning their motivations simply based on your perception or frustrations.

Second, it is for PC reasons. That's why CSU - Sacramento banned Christmas decorations. Aparently, such decorations were ethnically insensitive. :roll:

It is PC for some people I agree. However, in my case and in the case of many others it isn't. It's just a stupid saying that's more inclusive. Who gives a rat's ass? Personally, I don't even wish people Happy Holidays.

They're relegating religious celebration to behind doors by not permitting their display in the public square. Just look at various states where the Ten Commandments were removed.

The second that they allow other religions to have displays they are more than welcome to have displays. Christians shouldn't get a monopoly on this or anything else.

Really? So CSU - Sacramention banning Christmas decorations in 2005 and UNC - Charlotte doing the same in 2008 is meaningless, huh?

I think it's just a case of people trying to be whiny PC idiots. Just as I think people getting offended when people say Happy Holidays is a case of a bunch of arrogant whiny Christians getting offended for incredibly stupid reasons. The whole issue is stupid to me.
 
Well, obviously it isn't on the spot. That would be impossible. However, they want to come in and explain their religion to you as if you aren't capable of doing the research on your own if you were even interested in the first place.

And the problem with that is...what exactly? Oh, you think they believe that they think people are stupid.

That's it. That's all you have. Unfairly imputing a false motivation to those you are offended by.

Why do they feel the need to do so, though? You don't see other non-Christian religions doing this. With all of the demonizing that people have done to Islam, you'd think they'd be doing it, but they don't. It's because Christians have a "good guy" badge and feel the need to save and convert everyone.

I know that they don't do it because, as you assert, they simply believe the rest of us are stupid.

It doesn't really offend me, but I do disagree with it and openly criticize it. I mostly just think it's absurd and arrogant.

Absurd and arrogant only because you think they believe everyone else is stupid. :roll:
 
I guess this is a sad attempt at humor? :roll:

No, it's completely genius because now he can say "APRIL FOOLS!" to you and you'll be like, "Wha?" :lol:
 
The fact that it doesn't specify which holiday makes it more inclusive. A Jewish person could be told that and have it apply to them just as a Christian could.

Right, 'cuz there's no holiday to see here. Just a non-holday called Christmas that we won't call Christmas...

I think history has shown that the majority isn't always necessarily right.

And that bears on this how?
 
And the problem with that is...what exactly? Oh, you think they believe that they think people are stupid.

That's it. That's all you have. Unfairly imputing a false motivation to those you are offended by.

I don't think that they actually believe that people are stupid, but if someone were to try and come to my door to "share" their beliefs with me I would probably ask if they think I'm stupid and incapable of doing my own research on a belief if I have interest in it.

I know that they don't do it because, as you assert, they simply believe the rest of us are stupid.

Read above.

Absurd and arrogant only because you think they believe everyone else is stupid. :roll:

Again, read above.
 
It is PC for some people I agree. However, in my case and in the case of many others it isn't. It's just a stupid saying that's more inclusive. Who gives a rat's ass? Personally, I don't even wish people Happy Holidays.

Ok. But why do you insist on maligning those who do have a problem with what they see as a war against their religion? And to malign them by calling them arrogant or call them big babies?

The second that they allow other religions to have displays they are more than welcome to have displays. Christians shouldn't get a monopoly on this or anything else.

Sorry, but how is this applicable? The "they" you're talking about are generally locally elected officials that put up a manger and stable display.

I think it's just a case of people trying to be whiny PC idiots. Just as I think people getting offended when people say Happy Holidays is a case of a bunch of arrogant whiny Christians getting offended for incredibly stupid reasons. The whole issue is stupid to me.

I don't think people are offended by "Happy Holidays." It's more that this is another example of symbols of Christianity being eliminated from the public square.
 
I don't think that they actually believe that people are stupid,

That's what you are saying, though. Thanks for clearing it up.

but if someone were to try and come to my door to "share" their beliefs with me I would probably ask if they think I'm stupid and incapable of doing my own research on a belief if I have interest in it.

Again, why do you insist that someone attempting to spread their faith or gin up interest in their house of worship must think you're stupid?
 
Right, 'cuz there's no holiday to see here. Just a non-holday called Christmas that we won't call Christmas...

Um...did I say that? No, I didn't. I'm just saying that Happy Holidays is an all-inclusive statement. It even goes beyond religious/cultural differences. It could mean Thanksgiving or New Years as well.

And that bears on this how?

You tried to prove that you were right by saying that a majority of people don't like the term "Happy Holidays". I don't really care whether people like it or not. It's a nice sentiment to wish to someone just as "Merry Christmas" is. The fact that people are actually arguing about how to properly wish someone well is just absurd to me. I think that if someone were to actually get offended that you didn't wish them well properly by specifying "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays" then they don't deserve the sentiment in the first place.
 
That's what you are saying, though. Thanks for clearing it up.

Um, no it wasn't. I already stated how I feel. If you choose to ignore it, there's nothing more I can do for you.

Again, why do you insist that someone attempting to spread their faith or gin up interest in their house of worship must think you're stupid?

I don't insist that. However, they must know that I am perfectly capable of researching the topic. It's not like I've been living under a rock and have never heard of Mormonism. I personally think that religious belief is a highly personal thing and I find it incredibly arrogant that someone is going to come to MY door to try and promote their belief as if my currently held beliefs aren't sufficient. I don't think that belief is something that should be sold door-to-door like a vacuum. I realize you don't characterize it this way and that's fine. However, I do.
 
Um...did I say that? No, I didn't. I'm just saying that Happy Holidays is an all-inclusive statement. It even goes beyond religious/cultural differences. It could mean Thanksgiving or New Years as well.

Oh, I thought Happy Thanksgiving was Happy Thanksgiving, not a stand-in for Christmas. The same for Happy New Year's.

The fact that people are actually arguing about how to properly wish someone well is just absurd to me.

Unfair characterization of the issue.
 
Um, no it wasn't. I already stated how I feel. If you choose to ignore it, there's nothing more I can do for you.

No, I thought that's what you were saying based on your comments. You said that you were not. I thanked you for clarifying that. Problem?

I don't insist that.

But you do as you insist in believing that the only reason they are there is because they think you're too stupid to do your own research.

However, they must know that I am perfectly capable of researching the topic.

Who knows what they think as they approach your home. The issue was you imputing to them some belief that you're too dumb to think for yourself.

It's not like I've been living under a rock and have never heard of Mormonism. I personally think that religious belief is a highly personal thing and I find it incredibly arrogant that someone is going to come to MY door to try and promote their belief as if my currently held beliefs aren't sufficient. I don't think that belief is something that should be sold door-to-door like a vacuum. I realize you don't characterize it this way and that's fine. However, I do.

Okay. Just don't impute to them beliefs they don't hold simply because you find their actions disagreeable.
 
Oh, I thought Happy Thanksgiving was Happy Thanksgiving, not a stand-in for Christmas. The same for Happy New Year's.

I never said that it was a stand in. However, the statement Happy Holidays is plural. It references more than one holiday. I've always thought it to reference all of the late year holidays such as Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Years. It also includes the holiday celebrations of other religions and cultures as well. It doesn't change the fact that it's still a nice sentiment to wish to someone. It's stupid that people would take issue with something that is meant as a nice sentiment. There are people on both sides of this issue who are acting like morons. Getting offended from a term like Happy Holidays is idiotic just as trying to ban Merry Christmas is.

Unfair characterization of the issue.

Are you going to elaborate or just make one-liners with nothing to back it up?
 
No, I thought that's what you were saying based on your comments. You said that you were not. I thanked you for clarifying that. Problem?

Not at all. I thought you were saying that my explanation wasn't good enough. Forgive me for misinterpreting that.

But you do as you insist in believing that the only reason they are there is because they think you're too stupid to do your own research.

That's interesting. You just said that you thought that I was saying that based on my comments but that I clarified that I wasn't. Yet here you are again implying that it is what I said. Could you make up your mind or are you going to continue to contradict yourself?

Who knows what they think as they approach your home. The issue was you imputing to them some belief that you're too dumb to think for yourself.

I really could care less what they think as they approach my home. I find it insulting and arrogant regardless.

Okay. Just don't impute to them beliefs they don't hold simply because you find their actions disagreeable.

I didn't. I'm only expressing how I interpret their going door-to-door. I'm sure they believe that they have the best of intentions. I really could care less about their intentions. I'm annoyed that I have to spend any time explaining to someone that I'm not interested in letting them in to give a sales pitch so I can decided whether or not to adopt their belief system. It is time that would be better spent by masturbating or going to the bathroom.
 
Getting offended from a term like Happy Holidays is idiotic just as trying to ban Merry Christmas is.

It seems to me that the only ones being offended are those demanding the Merry Christmas be relegated to the ash heap of history.

Those concerned about Merry Christmas being replaced by Happy Holidays are not offended, they're concerned about yet another attempt to eliminate Christianity from the public square.

Are you going to elaborate or just make one-liners with nothing to back it up?

I thought I was clear. I thought your comment, "The fact that people are actually arguing about how to properly wish someone well is just absurd to me" unfairly characterizes the problem Christians have with this. This ain't about a holiday greeting. And you're mischaracterizing it to deliberately duck the larger issue.
 
It seems to me that the only ones being offended are those demanding the Merry Christmas be relegated to the ash heap of history.

Are you sure about that? Why then does Bill O'Reilly have his yearly War On Christmas special? Why do people get offended when they are told Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas?

Those concerned about Merry Christmas being replaced by Happy Holidays are not offended, they're concerned about yet another attempt to eliminate Christianity from the public square.

Which is paranoia and nothing more. Christianity will most likely never be eliminated from the public square considering that a majority of people in this country are Christian. I don't see it happening anytime soon.

I thought I was clear. I thought your comment, "The fact that people are actually arguing about how to properly wish someone well is just absurd to me" unfairly characterizes the problem Christians have with this. This ain't about a holiday greeting. And you're mischaracterizing it to deliberately duck the larger issue.

Actually, yes it is about a holiday greeting. You take issue with people saying Happy Holidays because you perceive it to purely be about being PC and that simply isn't true.
 
It seems to me that the only ones being offended are those demanding the Merry Christmas be relegated to the ash heap of history.

Those concerned about Merry Christmas being replaced by Happy Holidays are not offended, they're concerned about yet another attempt to eliminate Christianity from the public square.

C'mon! They're gonna be the ones reaping the rewards in Heaven and playing Scrabble with Jeez-us. Let us heathens win a few battles... the Second Coming's right around the corner, anyway.
 
Those concerned about Merry Christmas being replaced by Happy Holidays are not offended, they're concerned about yet another attempt to eliminate Christianity from the public square.

If you get a spot with Merry Christmas in the public square Happy Holidays also gets a spot. Equal rights and all ya know:mrgreen:
 
I have met plenty of Christians who feel like shoving their beliefs down the throats of others. However, most of these people sincerely believe that they are saving others by doing so, so I don't completely fault them. I find more fault with Christianity itself for espousing that kind of crap.
Ah, but it isn't a christian tenet to prostelitize(sp?) people, I have met christians of smaller denominations that "witness" or, in other words, it is their specific christian values to convert others to that christian belief, otherwise they would be considered sinners in god's eyes, these smaller sects believe it is their duty to "save" everyone and yes, they are annoying, but my religion, Catholicism, and the mainstream Baptist and Episcopalian faiths are pretty much live and let live, Southern Baptists though(the evangelical ones) look out, they will "save" you whether you want their help or not, by getting laws passed, etc. Those guys are more than fair game if you want 'em.



A religion shouldn't have to rely on door-to-door sales tactics to spread word of their religion. For this, I feel they are completely open to criticism. You don't see Buddhists or Jewish people trying to sell their religion.
Fair enough.



I've found that by telling Christians I'm a Satanist it causes more of a problem and they feel even more of a need to save me. So, I lie and tell them that I'm an agnostic or atheist. The last few times it happened, the women who came to my door seemed offended that I wasn't still willing to let them in to try and sell their religion to me. I've also encountered far more pushy people who put their foot in the door and turn it into a big confrontation.
I haven't had that problem, even though I'm in the south, the Jehovah's witnesses frequent my area, but are generally very polite when they are declined.



Each religion has a fair share of nutcases. There are plenty of people who rabidly seek to enlist others just as there are those who don't feel the need to try and shove their beliefs onto others.
Which is why I think all of us on the sane side need to band together regardless of our beliefs, discuss them in a studious and respectful manner, and tell the extremists to shove it.



Religious icons shouldn't be allowed in public places unless they are willing to give all religions the opportunity to display theirs as well. I'm willing to bet that a lot of Christians would be up in arms if there was a non-Christian display in a public area and no Christian display as well.
Not me, or most of my friends of the christian faith, but I believe these should be privately donated items, not paid for from tax coffers, AND should be respectful in their placement in regards to the other belief symbols.


The sad thing is that all religions have people like this. There are plenty of arrogant atheists who feel the need to demean others for not seeing their way. This news story is absolute proof of that.
Well said.
 
There's the bad faith, again.

Why is it a big deal to include non-Christians in the Christmas celebration? I ask, are non-Christians such big babies that they can't stand someone with other beliefs? :roll:
I was going to make a point about this and totally forgot, thanks for the post and reminding me of that. I think people of other faiths take "Merry Christmas" the wrong way, to explain this a little further, it is christian to include, regardless of difference in celebration, I think some in our society take offense because they see our well wishes as an assumption of their faith, which couldn't be further from the truth as most christians go. Simply put, Merry Christmas is nothing more than the sharing of love and best wishes during the celebration.
 
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