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Atheists take aim at Christmas

Ikari said:
While it has been known for quite some time, I think maybe we're just getting out of a time when Christianity is considered dominate and the only religion in this country worth acknowledging.
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Huh? Until just recently this country felt that Christianity was the dominate culture group and the only religion worth acknowledging? :roll:

As I said, things change. I think people have become well more open to the concept of differing religions,
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This happened, uh, like, 200 years ago...no?

and more so than just the different flavors of Christianity which already existed. People have become well more tolerant and aware. And as people's perception changes, the stores whom cater to them change as well to reflect that change in perception.
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I don't think retailers are changing to Happy Holidays as a reflection of their perception that Americans are becoming more tolerant.

I don't think people were necessarily offended by Merry Christmas even if not Christian. I think that people just thought it'd be nice to include everyone, since you can't tell religion (usually) by external appearances, they've decided to adopt rhetoric that is more inclusive to the whole. I don't think any of this is forced. I think it's just that society and people have changed, and in a capitalistic nation; business will always change to reflect that.
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I don't see how wishing shoppers a "Merry Christmas" would exclude anyone.

But we're a rather open and tolerant people,
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Not according to people like Michelle Obama, Jeremiah Wright, Jess Jackson, Harry Reid, et al.

and as such the companies have looked at what they had been doing and decided that it would be better to change it. There's nothing really wrong with what they did.
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Good for you. However, for people who see this as a further watering down of our culture simply for the sake of maulticulturalism (in other words, destroying American culture), well, it's a big deal, obviously.
 
JMak said:
I don't see how wishing shoppers a "Merry Christmas" would exclude anyone.
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Except for the people who don't celebrate Christmas.

Good for you. However, for people who see this as a further watering down of our culture simply for the sake of maulticulturalism (in other words, destroying American culture), well, it's a big deal, obviously.
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I hate to be the one to tell you, but American culture is multi-culturalism.
 
dclxvinoise said:
Except for the people who don't celebrate Christmas.
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Oh? So we're going to say Happy Holidays to include that, what, less than 5 percent of people, who don't celebrate Christmas? I mean, who is not celebrating Christmas, i.e., decorating, shopping, etc?

I hate to be the one to tell you, but American culture is multi-culturalism.
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What does this mean?

Are you referring to the myth of the American melting pot?
 
JMak said:
Oh? So we're going to say Happy Holidays to include that, what, less than 5 percent of people, who don't celebrate Christmas? I mean, who is not celebrating Christmas, i.e., decorating, shopping, etc?
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Oh, come on! It's more than 5 percent of people. What about Jewish people?

This is the thing, I could see your argument completely if one culture or religion said "Christianity! You've had the limelight far too long! It's our turn!! From now on, all Merry Christmas signs will read Happy Hannukah!" However, no one is doing that. They are just using a more inclusive slogan that includes everyone, even Christians. Why is that such a big deal? Are Christians such big babies that they can't stand to share the holiday limelight with other cultures or religions?

What does this mean?

Are you referring to the myth of the American melting pot?
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:rofl

Are you actually suggesting that the American melting pot is a myth?!
 
I have been searching for decades for those evil Christians who are shoving crosses down people's throats; and with all that time, still can't find any.

Sometimes, I think overly sensitive agnostics and atheists think that some Mormons knocking on your door are somehow threatening you with Christianity and huddle behind their doors in abject fear.

I have found that just by opening the door and kindly saying, no thank you, I am a long time Devil Worshipper; I have NO problems with them leaving with a polite goodbye.

Well actually, I don't say that; but they have never tried to shove a cross down my throat when I politely say I am not interested. I think the hype about Christians forcing their views on society is rabid paranoia from those who think THIER views should be shoved down everyone else’s throats.

Great examples of it are abundant; my own little town of Ventura is a great example. For decades, there was a cross on the hillside on public parkland. It had been donated to the city and placed in the park. (going strictly by memory here but the facts are the same)

Then one day, an atheist saw the cross as an effrontery that was unacceptable; apparently in his paranoia, he thought that a gang of Christian monsters would one day come to town, discover his atheism and force that HUGE cross down his throat.

He took the city to court and demanded that the cross be taken down and that it was a violation of his Constitutional right to not have to look at crosses and attempted to force an entire city to cede to his paranoia. The issue was finally resolved when the citizens of Ventura, almost ALL of them, formed a coalition to save the cross and donated money to buy the parcel of land the cross sat on which the city was more than happy to parcel off and sell. The cross now sits on private property and now can be legally left standing as a free speech thingy.

This happened a few years ago, and to this date at least, no Christian monsters have come to the town and attempted to shove this cross down this paranoid atheist’s throat.

Serra Cross Park

Carry on. :2wave:
 
Quote:Originally Posted by JMak
I don't see how wishing shoppers a "Merry Christmas" would exclude anyone.
dclxvinoise said:
Except for the people who don't celebrate Christmas.
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So you believe that the clerk behind the counter who says "Merry Christmas" to someone who doesn't celebrate Christmas is excluding them? BUT, had they said “Happy Holidays” this somehow included them?
 
dclxvinoise said:
Oh, come on! It's more than 5 percent of people. What about Jewish people?
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What about them? Were they expressing offense when being wished a Merry Christmas?

This is the thing, I could see your argument completely if one culture or religion said "Christianity! You've had the limelight far too long! It's our turn!! From now on, all Merry Christmas signs will read Happy Hannukah!" However, no one is doing that. They are just using a more inclusive slogan that includes everyone, even Christians.
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As we can obviously see...Christians don't feel included by Happy Holidays.

Why is that such a big deal? Are Christians such big babies that they can't stand to share the holiday limelight with other cultures or religions?
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I see. Complaining about the disappearance of symbols of Christianity being eliminated from the public square has not legitimacy, eh? We're just big babies, huh?

Thanks for exposing your bad faith in debate.

Are you actually suggesting that the American melting pot is a myth?!
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Yeah.

Oh sure, I'll grant that early European immigration to the US witnessed a melting of those groups into American society, becoming completely assimilated. But not the last several decades, oh no, not even close to a melting pot. I mean, how many examples do you want? Bilingual public education? Government documents printed in various languages? TV shows that are considered Latino, Black, etc.? Segregated public university organizations? Just look at any urban high school cafeteria - blacks sitting with blacks; latinos sitting with latinos; Koreans sitting with Koreans. And now with the Muslims demanding foot baths be installed in our public universities to accomodate their Muslim faith.

This ain't melting into American society. This is balkanizing American society as Americans choose to self-segregate.

Look, it's the multiculturalists that have a problem with the melting pot because they view it stripping minorities of their distinctive features. That's why multiculturalism has successfully invaded our universities and created little tiny cultural studies programs...it's an effort to retain those distinctive features, to fight to supposedly oppressive assmimilationists.
 
Truth Detector said:
I have been searching for decades for those evil Christians who are shoving crosses down people's throats; and with all that time, still can't find any.
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I have met plenty of Christians who feel like shoving their beliefs down the throats of others. However, most of these people sincerely believe that they are saving others by doing so, so I don't completely fault them. I find more fault with Christianity itself for espousing that kind of crap.

Sometimes, I think overly sensitive agnostics and atheists think that some Mormons knocking on your door are somehow threatening you with Christianity and huddle behind their doors in abject fear.
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A religion shouldn't have to rely on door-to-door sales tactics to spread word of their religion. For this, I feel they are completely open to criticism. You don't see Buddhists or Jewish people trying to sell their religion.

I have found that just by opening the door and kindly saying, no thank you, I am a long time Devil Worshipper; I have NO problems with them leaving with a polite goodbye.
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I've found that by telling Christians I'm a Satanist it causes more of a problem and they feel even more of a need to save me. So, I lie and tell them that I'm an agnostic or atheist. The last few times it happened, the women who came to my door seemed offended that I wasn't still willing to let them in to try and sell their religion to me. I've also encountered far more pushy people who put their foot in the door and turn it into a big confrontation.

Well actually, I don't say that; but they have never tried to shove a cross down my throat when I politely say I am not interested. I think the hype about Christians forcing their views on society is rabid paranoia from those who think THIER views should be shoved down everyone else’s throats.
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Each religion has a fair share of nutcases. There are plenty of people who rabidly seek to enlist others just as there are those who don't feel the need to try and shove their beliefs onto others.

Great examples of it are abundant; my own little town of Ventura is a great example. For decades, there was a cross on the hillside on public parkland. It had been donated to the city and placed in the park. (going strictly by memory here but the facts are the same)

Then one day, an atheist saw the cross as an effrontery that was unacceptable; apparently in his paranoia, he thought that a gang of Christian monsters would one day come to town, discover his atheism and force that HUGE cross down his throat.

He took the city to court and demanded that the cross be taken down and that it was a violation of his Constitutional right to not have to look at crosses and attempted to force an entire city to cede to his paranoia. The issue was finally resolved when the citizens of Ventura, almost ALL of them, formed a coalition to save the cross and donated money to buy the parcel of land the cross sat on which the city was more than happy to parcel off and sell. The cross now sits on private property and now can be legally left standing as a free speech thingy.
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Religious icons shouldn't be allowed in public places unless they are willing to give all religions the opportunity to display theirs as well. I'm willing to bet that a lot of Christians would be up in arms if there was a non-Christian display in a public area and no Christian display as well.
This happened a few years ago, and to this date at least, no Christian monsters have come to the town and attempted to shove this cross down this paranoid atheist’s throat.

Serra Cross Park

Carry on. :2wave:
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The sad thing is that all religions have people like this. There are plenty of arrogant atheists who feel the need to demean others for not seeing their way. This news story is absolute proof of that.
 
Truth Detector said:
Quote:Originally Posted by JMak
I don't see how wishing shoppers a "Merry Christmas" would exclude anyone.


So you believe that the clerk behind the counter who says "Merry Christmas" to someone who doesn't celebrate Christmas is excluding them? BUT, had they said “Happy Holidays” this somehow included them?
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They aren't excluding them, but it doesn't apply to them as they don't celebrate Christmas. Why is it such a big deal to just say Happy Holidays? Again, I ask, are Christians such big babies that they can't stand to share the light with other beliefs?
 
Truth Detector said:
Quote:Originally Posted by JMak
I don't see how wishing shoppers a "Merry Christmas" would exclude anyone.

So you believe that the clerk behind the counter who says "Merry Christmas" to someone who doesn't celebrate Christmas is excluding them? BUT, had they said “Happy Holidays” this somehow included them?
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That's the stupidity of multiculturalist thinking.

Christmas is the Christian holiday. Wishing someone a "Merry Christmas" who is not a Christian is explicitly including them in the Christian holiday.
 
JMak said:
That's the stupidity of multiculturalist thinking.

Christmas is the Christian holiday. Wishing someone a "Merry Christmas" who is not a Christian is explicitly including them in the Christian holiday.
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So screw all of the other cultures in the US, right? Christianity is the majority religion here and they should just deal with it! :roll:
 
dclxvinoise said:
I have met plenty of Christians who feel like shoving their beliefs down the throats of others. However, most of these people sincerely believe that they are saving others by doing so, so I don't completely fault them. I find more fault with Christianity itself for espousing that kind of crap.
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For espousing missionary work? Huh?

A religion shouldn't have to rely on door-to-door sales tactics to spread word of their religion. For this, I feel they are completely open to criticism. You don't see Buddhists or Jewish people trying to sell their religion.
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It's called missionary work no matter if it's door-to-door as we see in urban and suburban areas or in the form of doing good works in Haiti.

I'm not sure why such missionary work should be equated to a door-to-door salesman. I've never seen such a pitch. Have you?

I've found that by telling Christians I'm a Satanist it causes more of a problem and they feel even more of a need to save me. So, I lie and tell them that I'm an agnostic or atheist. The last few times it happened, the women who came to my door seemed offended that I wasn't still willing to let them in to try and sell their religion to me. I've also encountered far more pushy people who put their foot in the door and turn it into a big confrontation.
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Kinda like Obama directing his supporters to get in the face of people that disagree with them, huh?
 
dclxvinoise said:
They aren't excluding them, but it doesn't apply to them as they don't celebrate Christmas. Why is it such a big deal to just say Happy Holidays? Again, I ask, are Christians such big babies that they can't stand to share the light with other beliefs?
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There's the bad faith, again.

Why is it a big deal to include non-Christians in the Christmas celebration? I ask, are non-Christians such big babies that they can't stand someone with other beliefs? :roll:
 
dclxvinoise said:
So screw all of the other cultures in the US, right? Christianity is the majority religion here and they should just deal with it! :roll:
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Wow! How did you cull that from my comments? Now you're just revealing your dishonesty.
 
JMak said:
For espousing missionary work? Huh?
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No, for selling their religion. Obviously Mormons aren't the only ones who do that crap.

It's called missionary work no matter if it's door-to-door as we see in urban and suburban areas or in the form of doing good works in Haiti.
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Again, I'm not limiting this to Mormons. Jehova's Witness people do it too.

I'm not sure why such missionary work should be equated to a door-to-door salesman. I've never seen such a pitch. Have you?
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They are promoting their religion. They are essentially assuming that people are stupid and haven't heard of Mormonism and that they should adopt these views. I call that door-to-door sales.

Kinda like Obama directing his supporters to get in the face of people that disagree with them, huh?
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Nice attempt to trip me up.

First of all, I don't agree with that kind of political campaigning at all, regardless of who the candidate is. A guy from Obama headquarters in California called me and tried to get me to volunteer and I told him to go **** himself.

Secondly, what does Obama have to do with the discussion? Please, try to stay on topic.
 
JMak said:
Wow! How did you cull that from my comments? Now you're just revealing your dishonesty.
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That's what I got from your comments. If I'm incorrect, please correct me. What did you mean?
 
JMak said:
There's the bad faith, again.

Why is it a big deal to include non-Christians in the Christmas celebration? I ask, are non-Christians such big babies that they can't stand someone with other beliefs? :roll:
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Why is it a big deal to be inclusive and say Happy Holidays if it includes Christians and everyone else?

Oh, and by the way, I personally don't see a problem with saying Merry Christmas to someone. I just don't see why you find it to be a problem when a company says Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas.
 
dclxvinoise said:
No, for selling their religion. Obviously Mormons aren't the only ones who do that crap.
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I love the characterization of it as "selling." But i understand that you feel compelled to caricature that which you don't like, find offensive, or otherwise disagree with. It avoids the substance altogether, right?

They are promoting their religion. They are essentially assuming that people are stupid and haven't heard of Mormonism and that they should adopt these views. I call that door-to-door sales.
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Again, another caricature.Attributing false motivations to them that are only useful to serve your gross mischaracterization of those you find offensive.

Nice attempt to trip me up.
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Not tripping you. Just drawing an analogy to test the good faith of your argument.

First of all, I don't agree with that kind of political campaigning at all, regardless of who the candidate is. A guy from Obama headquarters in California called me and tried to get me to volunteer and I told him to go **** himself.

Secondly, what does Obama have to do with the discussion? Please, try to stay on topic.
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Testing your good faith is all. It seems that you are truly serious about your gross caricatures of those you find offensive.
 
dclxvinoise said:
That's what I got from your comments. If I'm incorrect, please correct me. What did you mean?
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There's no way you cold have concluded that from my comments. I commented that wishing someone a Merry Christmas is explicitly including them in the holiday.

You drew from that that I was saying screw everyone else.

There's no way a good faith reading of my comments gets you to such a conclusion.

Yet another gross caricature from you.
 
JMak said:
I love the characterization of it as "selling." But i understand that you feel compelled to caricature that which you don't like, find offensive, or otherwise disagree with. It avoids the substance altogether, right?
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What else would you call going door to door in an attempt to convert someone to their religion?

Again, another caricature.Attributing false motivations to them that are only useful to serve your gross mischaracterization of those you find offensive.
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I don't find them offensive at all. I have no problem with them aside from the fact that they feel the need to go door-to-door to try and sell their religion by converting others.

Not tripping you. Just drawing an analogy to test the good faith of your argument.

Testing your good faith is all. It seems that you are truly serious about your gross caricatures of those you find offensive.
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Again, I don't find them offensive. I have a friend who is Mormon. Obviously, we disagree about religion but that doesn't mean that I find his beliefs offensive or that he finds mine offensive.
 
JMak said:
There's no way you cold have concluded that from my comments. I commented that wishing someone a Merry Christmas is explicitly including them in the holiday.

You drew from that that I was saying screw everyone else.

There's no way a good faith reading of my comments gets you to such a conclusion.

Yet another gross caricature from you.
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Well, here's how I see it. From what I've gathered in your posts you have a problem with people saying Happy Holidays. Happy Holidays is an all-inclusive statement. Merry Christmas isn't. Merry Christmas references a specific holiday of a specific religion. I don't think it's offensive to tell someone that. However, I fail to see what problem there is with saying something like "Happy Holidays" instead to be more inclusive just in case they aren't Christian. I see it as a courteous gesture more than anything.
 
dclxvinoise said:
Why is it a big deal to be inclusive and say Happy Holidays if it includes Christians and everyone else?
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Again, obviously, Christians, and for that matter, nearly 60% of Americans, don't see Happy Holidays as including them (and I'm inferring that from the fact that 60+% of Americans prefer Merry Christmas to Happy Holidays).

Oh, and by the way, I personally don't see a problem with saying Merry Christmas to someone. I just don't see why you find it to be a problem when a company says Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas.
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Because it is symbolic of something larger. Whether it's eliminating Christian symbols from the public square, school prayer, etc., it's an attack on Christianity.

Heh, I recall just a few years ago that the major media and others declared the attack on Christmas/Christinaity to be a manufactured crisis...I'm glad this has changed.
 
JMak said:
Again, obviously, Christians, and for that matter, nearly 60% of Americans, don't see Happy Holidays as including them (and I'm inferring that from the fact that 60+% of Americans prefer Merry Christmas to Happy Holidays).
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I don't think it's an issue of whether it includes them. I think that a lot of people are offended that Christianity doesn't have the limelight when that statement is made. I think they also fear that people are doing it for purely PC reasons.

Because it is symbolic of something larger. Whether it's eliminating Christian symbols from the public square, school prayer, etc., it's an attack on Christianity.
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It isn't an attack on Christianity. If it were an attack on Christianity they would be trying to eradicate these things from existence, not just from public arenas.

Heh, I recall just a few years ago that the major media and others declared the attack on Christmas/Christinaity to be a manufactured crisis...I'm glad this has changed.
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It is manufactured. It has become nothing more than an annual topic interest for Bill O'Reilly to prattle on about.
 
dclxvinoise said:
What else would you call going door to door in an attempt to convert someone to their religion?
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Well, first, those going door-to-door are not seeking to convert someone on the spot. So, secondly, it ain't as you characterize it.

I don't find them offensive at all. I have no problem with them aside from the fact that they feel the need to go door-to-door to try and sell their religion by converting others.
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Why do you think they are selling it? Can it not be that they're attracting interest in their specific house of worship? Can it not be that they're attempting to spread the words of their faith?

To you it appears that the answer is no. Rather, there are snake oil salesman...

Again, I don't find them offensive. I have a friend who is Mormon. Obviously, we disagree about religion but that doesn't mean that I find his beliefs offensive or that he finds mine offensive.
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I wasn't saying you find their beliefs offensive, but the way they choose to spread their word and attract interest to their house of worship.
 
JMak said:
Well, first, those going door-to-door are not seeking to convert someone on the spot. So, secondly, it ain't as you characterize it.
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Well, obviously it isn't on the spot. That would be impossible. However, they want to come in and explain their religion to you as if you aren't capable of doing the research on your own if you were even interested in the first place.

Why do you think they are selling it? Can it not be that they're attracting interest in their specific house of worship? Can it not be that they're attempting to spread the words of their faith?
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Why do they feel the need to do so, though? You don't see other non-Christian religions doing this. With all of the demonizing that people have done to Islam, you'd think they'd be doing it, but they don't. It's because Christians have a "good guy" badge and feel the need to save and convert everyone.

To you it appears that the answer is no. Rather, there are snake oil salesman...

I wasn't saying you find their beliefs offensive, but the way they choose to spread their word and attract interest to their house of worship.
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It doesn't really offend me, but I do disagree with it and openly criticize it. I mostly just think it's absurd and arrogant.
 
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