• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

CNN's Don Lemon defends removal of statues: People were taught 'propaganda' about American history

Fletch said:
Except the mindless liberal mob took down a statue of Frederick Douglass this weekend. Was he a Confederate rebel? Or are the people doing this just mindless left wing idiots
Click to expand...

Yes, they are mindless left wing idiots.
They're the same idiots who march through downtown areas burning stores and looting without realizing they are costing people their jobs and a means of earning an income from businesses that took years to build. They don't care whether a statue is an abolitionist, a general who defeated Confederates in battle, or someone who fought for our nation's independence from a foreign tyrant. They will pull it down regardless.
When you are stupid and ignorant of history, you just do what is easiest and that is burn, loot, and destroy.
 
Irredentist said:
Perhaps we should spend more time remembering thousands of years of indigenous history, instead of one Italian and his boat.
Click to expand...

And what will remembering thousands of years of indigenous history get you? A different name for an NFL team?
The recovery of ancient Indian land taken away by the white man? The restoration of lost love from native Americans who trusted in the white man some 300 years ago?
You must be Catholic and suffer from the stain of original sin.
Get over it. History is written by the victors.
 
jaypatriot said:
And what will remembering thousands of years of indigenous history get you? A different name for an NFL team?
The recovery of ancient Indian land taken away by the white man? The restoration of lost love from native Americans who trusted in the white man some 300 years ago?
You must be Catholic and suffer from the stain of original sin.
Get over it. History is written by the victors.
Click to expand...

Congratulations, you've figured it out!

We, as the new victors, will write history our way.
 
Irredentist said:
Congratulations, you've figured it out! We, as the new victors, will write history our way.
Click to expand...
Given that there were numerous tribes, each speaking a different language, and usually at war with each other, all with no written language, the history can only be determined by those who arrived later. Namely us.
 
Whythink said:
Yeah, and a conservative mindless mob walked around chanting "Jews will not replace us" because a Confederate statue was being removed.

Generalizing is the lowest form of stupidity. Plus, with 50%+ being liberal, what you are saying is very anti-American.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Youve hit the liberal trifecta: whataboutisms, falsehoods and general stupidity. NOt an easy thing to do in a single post.
 
Irredentist said:
Perhaps we should spend more time remembering thousands of years of indigenous history, instead of one Italian and his boat.
Click to expand...

Great. Tell me about the great pre-Columbus native Americans and their accomplishments in, well, whatever you like: exploration, literature, medicine, science, whatever.
 
**** yeah. Statues are a hunk of marble, stone, alabaster or brass. Some represent heroes, others monsters. One of the the commandments is not to bow down to graven images, and a flag is just a woven, printed or embroidered so what's the difference: time to rethink just how much we need the images themselves and consider what they stand for.
 
Deuce said:
Conservatives keep screeching about how stupid virtually every black person in the country is and somehow keep asking why they don't vote for conservatives. :lamo
Click to expand...

Oh, I see. Conservatives "screech". While frenzied lefty fanatics speak in calm and gentle tones.
 
SenorXm/Sirius said:
My position is the war the South started against fellow Americans in the US caused 600,000+ American deaths. That's treason.
Click to expand...

well I have to say this , combined with your previous point in this thread, is a decent beginning point for a conversation about it.

I believe that yes, the south did wrong. I also believe that in those times states sovereignty was a much bigger thing. it was a nation in turmoil and it actually had the best outcome it probably could have, other than a perfect storm of the south slowly getting rid of slavery. not sure if that would have been better or not, for how long it may have lasted.

anyway, the other good thing that happened is that the nation was reconciled and the confederate's pardoned to unify the nation. without that happening, more recent history would have been very different. probably mostly worse, in a general sense.

while I am fine removing the statues in a legal way by vote , and possibly putting them in a museum, I still am totally opposed to anyone tearing them down and destroying them as the artwork itself , as I have stated, gives us a view into history , and another world.

and that is just confederate statues. all others: founders, Abraham Lincoln,, is going too far and is irrational. we need replacements if there are ones that are a problem, but depicting the same person or event.
I am also for making NEW statues, if that is desired, of other people who might be missing , if you want.

I would be interested to hear your counterpoints, if you have them.
 
Last edited:
There is a fine line in this current hostile climate...between censoring history and censoring comedic or inappropriate representations of history. The US and the world need to be very cautious how this is approached.
 
Ouroboros said:
On a related note, the anti-Cofederacy mania has little to do with past sins. Modern liberals are afraid that Confederate images might empower white supremacy . Even if liberals removed every Confederate icon, the supremacists would just find other icons, which liberals would make their next target. But none of this virtue signaling is really about the sins of the South.
Click to expand...

The Confederate images were traitors who fought a war so they, and the Western territories could be allowed to own slaves, and they lost the war. So of course this is about supremacy. The Confederate 'idols/icons were losers, certainly not heroes.

Except for a symbol of 'White Supremacy' I have no idea why anyone would want to idolize confederates. But you are probably right, if the Confederate statues were gone the Supremacists would probably just find other icons/symbols..

But that might be better than people honoring traitors who caused the death of 600,000+ Americans.
 
Hypothetical said:
well I have to say this , combined with your previous point in this thread, is a decent beginning point for a conversation about it.

I believe that yes, the south did wrong. I also believe that in those times states sovereignty was a much bigger thing. it was a nation in turmoil and it actually had the best outcome it probably could have, other than a perfect storm of the south slowly getting rid of slavery. not sure if that would have been better or not, for how long it may have lasted.

anyway, the other good thing that happened is that the nation was reconciled and the confederate's pardoned to unify the nation. without that happening, more recent history would have been very different. probably mostly worse, in a general sense.

while I am fine removing the statues in a legal way by vote , and possibly putting them in a museum, I still am totally opposed to anyone tearing them down and destroying them as the artwork itself , as I have stated, gives us a view into history , and another world.

and that is just confederate statues. all others: founders, Abraham Lincoln,, is going too far and is irrational. we need replacements if there are ones that are a problem, but depicting the same person or event.
I am also for making NEW statues, if that is desired, of other people who might be missing , if you want.

I would be interested to hear your counterpoints, if you have them.
Click to expand...

Well the reality was 600,000 Americans died in a war over the right to own people as property. Yes the South would have eventually got rid of slavery. But when? 30 years later? 50 years later? Not good enough..

the other good thing that happened is that the nation was reconciled and the confederate's pardoned to unify the nation.
Click to expand...

the war had to be fought for 'reconciliation' to happen.. That's not a good enough reason for 600,000 dead.

I pretty much laid out my position in my 1st post here. I don't want to judge everyone in history by today's morals, beliefs, and ethics.. That's not fair.. If the people living today who are judging the past lived in the past 99.9% of them would be just as flawed and as sinful as the past people they are judging. Columbus, Washington, Lincoln were all flawed. So would any of us if we were in their shoes and lived in their time.

But I draw the line at honoring traitors.
 
Much of Western Europe's/America's culture, language, society and government come from the Roman Empire. Hell our calendar comes from the Romans.. We gonna stop using that?

Can't get much more brutal and flawed than the Romans.

We need to be careful on how far we want go to judge our past.
 
ReubenSherr said:
I can't believe you're comparing George Washington to Hitler

How hard are people trying right now to get homeless schizophrenics off the streets, so they're not sleeping in urine all night long? About as hard as George Washington was trying to free the slaves. He wasn't a perfect man, and neither is anyone else out there right now.
Click to expand...

I can't believe you just lied. No, wait - I can.

The smart people know I didn't mention Washington anywhere in my post. They can read. Maybe you can ask one of them to translate my post for you.
 
MaryP said:
Good point.

I think even Columbus deserves to be honored, though, for his courage to push the envelope and sail off into the complete unknown. He was first, despite what cruddy things he did once he got here. They have pulled down statues of Jefferson, Grant, Spanish explorers, defaced Washington, Lincoln...I think they deserve to be honored, too.

But if every statue in the country is pulled down, so be it. I won't lose any sleep over it. I've seen very few of any statues in real life and if I've gone past them, I paid little attention. It doesn't seem the right way to go about it though. Those were put up for the public, and it should be the public that decides to take them down. The WHOLE public, not just a small group of protesters with a political agenda.
Click to expand...

I've never really given much thought to Columbus either way. He never set foot on the shores of this country. He didn't technically discover what we know to be the USA. I don't have any opinion of him, good or bad.

Like you, I don't care about statues. Never did. I never got my "history lessons" from a statue. Not even David in Florence.

This whole panic over statues is pretty much fake outrage to me.
 
Whythink said:
I find this article interesting. Why fox, is giving a play by play of CNN programming is intriguing. That said, the content is also interesting and something fair-minded people can agree on.


""Nobody is erasing history," Lemon told Cuomo. "What people are trying to do is*put*it in context and these are conversations that we should be having. And yes, they are messy. And sometimes people aren't smart about which statues they should taken down.""

Messy and not smart are fair descriptors. My instinct is to dismiss by calling those targetting random statues as criminals. It is possible that they simply are not very smart and/or just messy about what opportunities they decide to take advantage of. My guess, each incident is unique... some criminal intent, some messy, some not smart.

""The CNN anchor then asserted to viewers that much of what they learned about American history is "propaganda" and that "some things you have to un-learn so that you can become a better citizen.""

Very true. "The War of Northern Agression"! Yikes, so much was taught with softness. The blunt truth about slavery, racism, worker rights, red scare, lynchings, women's rights, the creation of the constitution, COMPROMISE, were hidden. These topics were taught, I don't believe lies were told, but important details were left out.

""After Cuomo told Lemon that "fear" was driving the discourse and dismissing the notion from President Trump that the rioters were "coming for*everything," Lemon noted that "very well-meaning liberals" have similarly expressed opposition towards the removal of statues along with Trump supporters.""

I consider myself a "well-meaning liberal". I love history and want it preserved in a way that demonstrates respect for the people who were often the victims.

CNN'''s Don Lemon defends removal of statues: People were taught '''propaganda''' about American history | Fox News

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Leftist weenies side with the violently disgruntled whiners who think they should tear down and destroy things other people value just because they cannot cope with societal norms.
 
Whythink said:
I find this article interesting. Why fox, is giving a play by play of CNN programming is intriguing. That said, the content is also interesting and something fair-minded people can agree on.


""Nobody is erasing history," Lemon told Cuomo. "What people are trying to do is*put*it in context and these are conversations that we should be having. And yes, they are messy. And sometimes people aren't smart about which statues they should taken down.""

Messy and not smart are fair descriptors. My instinct is to dismiss by calling those targetting random statues as criminals. It is possible that they simply are not very smart and/or just messy about what opportunities they decide to take advantage of. My guess, each incident is unique... some criminal intent, some messy, some not smart.

""The CNN anchor then asserted to viewers that much of what they learned about American history is "propaganda" and that "some things you have to un-learn so that you can become a better citizen.""

Very true. "The War of Northern Agression"! Yikes, so much was taught with softness. The blunt truth about slavery, racism, worker rights, red scare, lynchings, women's rights, the creation of the constitution, COMPROMISE, were hidden. These topics were taught, I don't believe lies were told, but important details were left out.

""After Cuomo told Lemon that "fear" was driving the discourse and dismissing the notion from President Trump that the rioters were "coming for*everything," Lemon noted that "very well-meaning liberals" have similarly expressed opposition towards the removal of statues along with Trump supporters.""

I consider myself a "well-meaning liberal". I love history and want it preserved in a way that demonstrates respect for the people who were often the victims.

CNN'''s Don Lemon defends removal of statues: People were taught '''propaganda''' about American history | Fox News

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

You and Don Lemon make good points.

In a similar manner, Oliver Stone made such a point with his fine but depressing documentary, The Untold History of the United States. Available on Netflix, if it hasn't been taken down yet.
 
SenorXm/Sirius said:
Well the reality was 600,000 Americans died in a war over the right to own people as property. Yes the South would have eventually got rid of slavery. But when? 30 years later? 50 years later? Not good enough..



the war had to be fought for 'reconciliation' to happen.. That's not a good enough reason for 600,000 dead.

I pretty much laid out my position in my 1st post here. I don't want to judge everyone in history by today's morals, beliefs, and ethics.. That's not fair.. If the people living today who are judging the past lived in the past 99.9% of them would be just as flawed and as sinful as the past people they are judging. Columbus, Washington, Lincoln were all flawed. So would any of us if we were in their shoes and lived in their time.

But I draw the line at honoring traitors.
Click to expand...

would you be ok with those statues going to a museum? and taken down legally?
 
SCrider said:
He also has enough intelligence and empathy to see that it's not all roses most everyone else. Especially those that look like him. That is enough to make someone angry.
Click to expand...

Lemon should go live in the Middle East, if he thinks life is so ****ty here.
 
chuckiechan said:
Don Lemon is trying to make sense of the senseless. The mobs are being led by educated, sophisticated, marxists. Those being led mean well, but are being played as willing idiots, and the ones doing the destruction are just there for the rush and to grab what they can.

This has set the black race back a generation. They are their own worst enemy because they follow the wrong leaders.
Click to expand...

That you resort to "Marxists" (capital "M") is your unintended admission that you have little or no understanding of what is happening. If the first place, there are hardly any Marxists left. In the second place, Confederate statues have stood for white nationalism ever since they were put up, not soon after the Civil War but more than 30 years later when Southern states began to roll back the Reconstruction laws that enfranchised black citizens. In the third place, statues of Confederate leaders memorialize traitors whose treason wrought untold death and destruction, including the deaths of hundreds of thousands of loyal Americans.
 
Hypothetical said:
would you be ok with those statues going to a museum? and taken down legally?
Click to expand...

I'd prefer that they be taken down legally. But lets be honest. You think many of the Southern states would a) put out a referendum on this...2) even if they did would a majority vote to take them down?

I would prefer they would be taken down in a non-violent way. But after 150 years of many in the South still being PO'ed they lost the war, and worshiping their traitors. 150 YEARS... I doubt they would act on their own now.
 
SenorXm/Sirius said:
I'd prefer that they be taken down legally. But lets be honest. You think many of the Southern states would a) put out a referendum on this...2) even if they did would a majority vote to take them down?

I would prefer they would be taken down in a non-violent way. But after 150 years of many in the South still being PO'ed they lost the war, and worshiping their traitors. 150 YEARS... I doubt they would act on their own now.
Click to expand...

well I am against any illegal removal, and yes, given a chance I think many of the statues would come down now.. and even if not, it is by the will of the voters or their representatives, who have every right to decide for their state.

that is how we and still needs to be how we decide things in this country. mob rule is and will always be a dangerous way to do things. it goes against the very tenets of our democracy, freedoms and equal rights under the law.
 
Hypothetical said:
well I am against any illegal removal, and yes, given a chance I think many of the statues would come down now.. and even if not, it is by the will of the voters or their representatives, who have every right to decide for their state.

that is how we and still needs to be how we decide things in this country. mob rule is and will always be a dangerous way to do things. it goes against the very tenets of our democracy, freedoms and equal rights under the law.
Click to expand...

IDK... It took a cop kneeling on a man's neck for 9 minutes in full view or witnesses and cameras for the pot to finally boil over. Quite honestly when a police force is that callous, and believes it is that untouchable, that 'above the law' that one of it's officers can kill someone with witnesses watching, and evidence being filmed, because he believed he would not face any consequences... That's scary, for everyone, not just Black people. I don't want mob rule, but it's obvious that many police forces look at themselves as occupation forces, and the people they suppose to protect as the enemy. That's not good for anyone.

If want happened in Minn., and no one protested? I doubt if anything would have changed down South concerning the Confederacy.
 
Sweden said:
Oh, I see. Conservatives "screech". While frenzied lefty fanatics speak in calm and gentle tones.
Click to expand...
Noticed that, did you? Now, stop screeching.
 
I'm not surprised to see our flock of TSWS (Trump Sycophantic White Supremacists) promoting the lie spread by the Trumps that the Frederick Douglass statue was attacked by "anarchists" or "mobs" rather than the far more likely reality" that the vandalism had been carried out by white supremacists seeking vengeance for destructive acts against Confederate monuments." It has none of the hallmarks of anarchists or "mob" attacks - done in the middle of the night with no fanfare. Get real.
Carvin Eison, who led the project that brought the Douglass statues to Rochester, said the historical significance of the date when the vandalism was discovered could not be ignored.

“Once you make that connection, you realize that it is impossible to disconnect the damage and the removal of the statue from the date of the address,” Mr. Eison said. “All kinds of theories and conspiracies go through your head.”

Mr. Eison said that he could not know what motivated the vandalism, but he added that he thought it was unlikely that the Douglass statue was toppled by someone who was upset about monuments honoring Confederate figures. Douglass clearly stood in direct opposition to those men.
Click to expand...
Who Tore Down This Frederick Douglass Statue? (NYT, subscription).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom