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Florida Law Restricting Felon Voting Is Unconstitutional, Judge Rules

According to some republicans doing your time isn't punishment enough, they want to make sure a person keeps on being punished even after being released from prison. But hey, it's the way they roll.
 
Do you think one random ass anecdote disproves the concept of racial disparity in the criminal justice system?

Do you think this guy is the only example of revolving door justice? If he as a black man can get out after being arrested 67 times, anyone can.
 
Do you think this guy is the only example of revolving door justice? If he as a black man can get out after being arrested 67 times, anyone can.

Right, some poor defendant with a public defender juggling 500 cases has the same chance in our justice system as a defendant who can hire actually competent lawyers.

You can go with that if you want. The rest of us live in reality.

And back to the OP - the system in place is impossible for former felons to meet. Florida can't even tell people how much they owe, so how does a former felon pay a bill of ______? to register, when voting illegally (i.e. without paying his fees, etc.) is a crime.

So it's really a lot like Jim Crow laws - the "must pay all fines, and costs, etc." law was intended to (or was, coincidentally....) an impossible burden, for the wrong people those in power didn't want voting. And Jim Crow voting laws worked, like this law would have worked as passed and put in place by the GOP in Florida.
 
Spend a little more time in the Constitution instead of emoji university

Ah the arrogance of a juris scholar, who talks the talk but can't walk the walk. What else do your mind reading abilities spell out? :doh :ouch:

All too bad for you, did my studying at John Jay. A very different perspective, without the pomposity reserved for the politicians and other fools.
 
Do you think this guy is the only example of revolving door justice? If he as a black man can get out after being arrested 67 times, anyone can.

Sheldon Silver. Growing girth with every passing day by not eating prison meals.
 
Right, some poor defendant with a public defender juggling 500 cases has the same chance in our justice system as a defendant who can hire actually competent lawyers.

You can go with that if you want. The rest of us live in reality.

And back to the OP - the system in place is impossible for former felons to meet. Florida can't even tell people how much they owe, so how does a former felon pay a bill of ______? to register, when voting illegally (i.e. without paying his fees, etc.) is a crime.

So it's really a lot like Jim Crow laws - the "must pay all fines, and costs, etc." law was intended to (or was, coincidentally....) an impossible burden, for the wrong people those in power didn't want voting. And Jim Crow voting laws worked, like this law would have worked as passed and put in place by the GOP in Florida.

The problem with your thesis, while defendants are guaranteed a right to defense counsel, there is no right to superior, not overworked defense counsel. The art of practicing law is cutting a deal. And 3-5 is a better deal than 7-10. Public defenders, and 1A attorneys are not incompetent. But most, if not all, the defendants they represent in court are guilty of the crimes for which they have been accused.

You want to attack the social issues that create those criminals, you are welcome to do so. However, conflating the criminality, the breaking of law and subsequent conviction with those social issues provides no excuse in the eyes of the law. Understood, you don't like that. Therefore you must advise altering the law. Go to work. You will be facing opposition of all those who have enjoyed how that bit of social engineering has effected bail reform based on the poverty of the criminals. Criminals released because of the reform, committing the same crime and worse the next day on the streets. Simply wonderful for their victims, just as poor as their predators. Delightful. We are all joyed by how you speak for those victims rights to breath.

This law was reversed by this judge because he opined the payment of restitution, and court penalties and fees was akin to a poll tax, not an issue of bigotry. Not because of any other perceived inequities of law. And that is still nothing like Jim Crow laws, which demanded separate bathrooms and water fountains for those who were judged non-white.
 
Then fix the laws and/or the system. Besides, some felons losing their right to vote is better than none... and there should also be some kind of basic testing that people would need to pass in order to vote. Base it on basic high school stuff, at the very least.


Tests like that were one of the tactic that Southern states used to keep blacks from voting.

Besides, Donald Trump could not pass the written part of the US citizenship test, and neither could most of his supporters.

I’m sure you have noticed that by now. Political ignorance is a common denominator with both.
 
The problem with your thesis, while defendants are guaranteed a right to defense counsel, there is no right to superior, not overworked defense counsel. The art of practicing law is cutting a deal. And 3-5 is a better deal than 7-10. Public defenders, and 1A attorneys are not incompetent. But most, if not all, the defendants they represent in court are guilty of the crimes for which they have been accused.

You want to attack the social issues that create those criminals, you are welcome to do so. However, conflating the criminality, the breaking of law and subsequent conviction with those social issues provides no excuse in the eyes of the law. Understood, you don't like that. Therefore you must advise altering the law. Go to work. You will be facing opposition of all those who have enjoyed how that bit of social engineering has effected bail reform based on the poverty of the criminals. Criminals released because of the reform, committing the same crime and worse the next day on the streets. Simply wonderful for their victims, just as poor as their predators. Delightful. We are all joyed by how you speak for those victims rights to breath.

You are attributing opinions to me that I haven't expressed. Most, if not all, the clients of criminal defense attorneys, period, are guilty. The premise was simple - there's a different justice system for the wealthy than the poor. If you're being honest, you can hire the best defense attorney in NY if you or a loved one is charged, and you'll do that, because you know he or she has a FAR better chance of getting you or yours a good deal, putting up a vigorous defense. So I know you agree with that premise, you just don't like it being acknowledged.

This law was reversed by this judge because he opined the payment of restitution, and court penalties and fees was akin to a poll tax, not an issue of bigotry. Not because of any other perceived inequities of law. And that is still nothing like Jim Crow laws, which demanded separate bathrooms and water fountains for those who were judged non-white.

That was part of his reasoning, but an equally big part of the opinion, as you know if you read it, was that it was an impossible burden to meet, even if he had determined that paying 'taxes' by any name was not a poll tax. The state literally could not determine what was owed by most of the 17 plaintiffs, given weeks to figure that out, so even if they showed up check in hand, an unlimited bank account, MOST couldn't meet the state's burden with any certainty.

And of course I was comparing this literally impossible burden for many former felons (and the judge used that word repeatedly for many granted the 'right' to vote by the Florida constitution), to the voting rules in place in Jim Crow, not to bathrooms, restaurants, etc. Those literacy tests weren't intended to test literacy but to deny voting privileges for virtually all blacks and many poor uneducated whites. The burden was intended to be unreachable by these undesirables in the eyes of those in power, and it was impossible to meet for almost all of them. Race in voting was a huge part but those rules impacted poor whites as well.

But the point was the judge went through 100 pages describing how the Florida scheme here is also virtually impossible to meet, from the difficulty to determining the amount, to inability to pay because they are poor, and the impossibility that Florida could timely process the registrations, with a conservative estimate that it would be 2026 before CURRENT applicants would see their applications approved or denied. That's either designed to fail the vast majority the amendment granted the right to vote, or coincidentally would result in it failing for a bunch of people the GOP could predict might vote Democratic.
 
Right, some poor defendant with a public defender juggling 500 cases has the same chance in our justice system as a defendant who can hire actually competent lawyers.

No, he'll be bonded out repeatedly until he enters plea arrangements. So he'll eventually be found be guilty, but still end up free after a few months in the slammer, maybe a few years if he's a real dirtbag. If he never ****s up and breaks the law in the first place his chance of going to prison is almost nil.
 
You are attributing opinions to me that I haven't expressed. Most, if not all, the clients of criminal defense attorneys, period, are guilty. The premise was simple - there's a different justice system for the wealthy than the poor. If you're being honest, you can hire the best defense attorney in NY if you or a loved one is charged, and you'll do that, because you know he or she has a FAR better chance of getting you or yours a good deal, putting up a vigorous defense. So I know you agree with that premise, you just don't like it being acknowledged.

Wrong I do not agree with the premise. Show me a Constitutional demand or right for equally qualified counsel. Nor is there any method for determining the qualities of any specific counsel for any specific defense, beyond subjective opinion.

That was part of his reasoning, but an equally big part of the opinion, as you know if you read it, was that it was an impossible burden to meet, even if he had determined that paying 'taxes' by any name was not a poll tax. The state literally could not determine what was owed by most of the 17 plaintiffs, given weeks to figure that out, so even if they showed up check in hand, an unlimited bank account, MOST couldn't meet the state's burden with any certainty.

Which means his opinion was entirely based on fiduciary reasoning. Nothing else.

And of course I was comparing this literally impossible burden for many former felons (and the judge used that word repeatedly for many granted the 'right' to vote by the Florida constitution), to the voting rules in place in Jim Crow, not to bathrooms, restaurants, etc. Those literacy tests weren't intended to test literacy but to deny voting privileges for virtually all blacks and many poor uneducated whites. The burden was intended to be unreachable by these undesirables in the eyes of those in power, and it was impossible to meet for almost all of them. Race in voting was a huge part but those rules impacted poor whites as well.

Then you used hyperbole and got struck by the laws of unintended consequences. You reached beyond the actual decision to apply your own reasoning. It doesn't fly.

But the point was the judge went through 100 pages describing how the Florida scheme here is also virtually impossible to meet, from the difficulty to determining the amount, to inability to pay because they are poor, and the impossibility that Florida could timely process the registrations, with a conservative estimate that it would be 2026 before CURRENT applicants would see their applications approved or denied. That's either designed to fail the vast majority the amendment granted the right to vote, or coincidentally would result in it failing for a bunch of people the GOP could predict might vote Democratic.

Still fiduciary concerns, the politics your own interpretation, and meaningless to the decision.
 
I don't know the number of the law, I just know it is on my friends permanent record and he had to serve 1 year of probation for it.

The underlying law that was broken was a misdemeanor regarding selling of electronic components that were not allowed to be sold.

Then it could just be something that a correctional facility puts on their record and not an actual law.

For that his voting rights were taken away.

How is selling some electronic components a felony?

The "piece of paper" you refer to is the Constitution of the United States.

So you are saying that the US Constitution is not a piece of paper?

According to some republicans doing your time isn't punishment enough, they want to make sure a person keeps on being punished even after being released from prison. But hey, it's the way they roll.

According to some people some crimes get too much punishment and others not enough...

Spend a little more time in the Constitution instead of emoji university

:lol:
 
Tests like that were one of the tactic that Southern states used to keep blacks from voting.

I have said that this would be a bi-partisan test with basic fair facts for all... not literacy. And that people could have reader/writers if they need it.

Besides, Donald Trump could not pass the written part of the US citizenship test, and neither could most of his supporters.

Good... that strengthens my argument. Trump would not be allowed to vote, much less run for government.

Hell, that is probably an even better test to give. Run for office you better pass this ****ing test first!

I’m sure you have noticed that by now. Political ignorance is a common denominator with both.

Of course it is... but why should we allow people to vote for leaders that pass laws, take our tax money, etc. be voted in by uneducated morons that do not even know basic stuff?
 
Wrong I do not agree with the premise. Show me a Constitutional demand or right for equally qualified counsel. Nor is there any method for determining the qualities of any specific counsel for any specific defense, beyond subjective opinion.

I didn't demand that. You're attributing opinions to me I haven't expressed for some reason I cannot figure out. Sure, at some level the 'right' to counsel can't be illusory - some hack with 1,000 cases that can't spend but 3 minutes on that case, so that there's no actual 'counsel' but some guy with a law degree. And the courts have held that there is a very limited right to competent counsel, as you must know. E.g. Strickland v. Washington :: 466 U.S. 668 (1984) :: Justia US Supreme Court Center

Which means his opinion was entirely based on fiduciary reasoning. Nothing else.

I don't know what you mean by "fiduciary reasoning." It's not a term or art so it's something you know what it means but no one else. What it was not was a decision that only relied on whether the rules amounted to a 'poll tax' or not. You said you read the opinion, so you know better. Did you miss the part about the state not providing staff to process the applications, that the appeals process was a joke? There was a special directive addressing that - essentially that an person's application had to be processed by the state within 21 days as I recall or else it was presumed valid. Or the fact that the registration form was repeatedly deficient and had to be redone?

You said you read it but if you did your memory of what it included is very selective and incomplete - he attacked the process from root to branch, and the 'poll tax' element was just one of the many deficiencies.

Then you used hyperbole and got struck by the laws of unintended consequences. You reached beyond the actual decision to apply your own reasoning. It doesn't fly.

What I noted is the rules put in place by the GOP were literally IMPOSSIBLE for applicants to meet. The judge agreed, and not just based on ability to pay or that it was a poll tax equivalent. That the rules operate like Jim Crow literacy tests by being deliberately impossible to meet (or that the GOP is indifferent to them being impossible to meet) is my own editorial comment, but it's true.

Still fiduciary concerns, the politics your own interpretation, and meaningless to the decision.

No, that, e.g., the process as enacted would require until 2026, at least, just to process applicants is not a "fiduciary concern."
 
Do you think this guy is the only example of revolving door justice? If he as a black man can get out after being arrested 67 times, anyone can.

Do you believe there is systemic racial bias in our criminal justice system? Yes or no question, very simple.
 
I don't know what you mean by "fiduciary reasoning."

What I noted is the rules put in place by the GOP were literally IMPOSSIBLE for applicants to meet. The judge agreed, and not just based on ability to pay or that it was a poll tax equivalent. That the rules operate like Jim Crow literacy tests by being deliberately impossible to meet (or that the GOP is indifferent to them being impossible to meet) is my own editorial comment, but it's true.

Fiduciary - by law definition "involving trust, especially with regard to the relationship between a trustee and a beneficiary." Application in the critique of the decision, with the judge acting as trustee for the benefit of citizens financial rights as pertaining to poll taxes.

Conflating literacy tests with a fiduciary obstacle is a convenience that muddies the waters. They are not the same, tho neither is acceptable.

Law is not always concerned with truth, as much as it is concerned with its own self supporting procedures, thus the technicalities which free the guilty, the law serving as obstruction to justice.

Your application of a law decision to your own political views I must reject. I see no difference to the obtuse bigotry of literacy laws, an almost archaic issue today, with the pandering bigotry of liberalism which claims to know better what is good for others. Frankly it is easier to confront and dismiss the prior in your face bigotry than the smile with the knife in the back.
 
Fiduciary - by law definition "involving trust, especially with regard to the relationship between a trustee and a beneficiary." Application in the critique of the decision, with the judge acting as trustee for the benefit of citizens financial rights as pertaining to poll taxes.

Conflating literacy tests with a fiduciary obstacle is a convenience that muddies the waters. They are not the same, tho neither is acceptable.

Law is not always concerned with truth, as much as it is concerned with its own self supporting procedures, thus the technicalities which free the guilty, the law serving as obstruction to justice.

Your application of a law decision to your own political views I must reject. I see no difference to the obtuse bigotry of literacy laws, an almost archaic issue today, with the pandering bigotry of liberalism which claims to know better what is good for others. Frankly it is easier to confront and dismiss the prior in your face bigotry than the smile with the knife in the back.

Tl/dr

If you're going to snip my comment to unrecognizable pieces, there's no point addressing your reply.
 
Tl/dr

If you're going to snip my comment to unrecognizable pieces, there's no point addressing your reply.

There is no necessity for reposting what anyone can see.
 
Do you believe there is systemic racial bias in our criminal justice system? Yes or no question, very simple.

No, not really. It's just another example of the victimhood society progressives like peddling. I think it's more an issue of class than race. If you live in a crime-infested neighborhood with a lot of drugs and gang peer pressure, you're more likely to get caught up in the criminal justice system. Certainly, if you have money and can hire a crackerjack team of attorneys like O.J. did, you can commit murder and get away with it. But is the system biased against people based on race? I don't think so. If we compare incarceration rates of Asians to that of whites, are we to assume the higher incarceration rate of whites is due to racism, or are Asians just on a socio-economically higher plane than whites? I tend to think it's the latter. If people just followed the law and didn't act like dip****s, their chances of ending up in jail or prison would be minimal, regardless of race.
 
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So you are saying that the US Constitution is not a piece of paper?

A Wal-Mart receipt is a piece of paper. You actually think a Wal-Mart receipt is as important as the United States Constitution.
 
A Wal-Mart receipt is a piece of paper. You actually think a Wal-Mart receipt is as important as the United States Constitution.

No. A Wal-Mart receipt is a Wal-Mart receipt that is a piece of paper.

I will ask again... Are you are saying that the US Constitution is not a piece of paper?
 
How is selling some electronic components a felony?

There were certain electronic components back in the '90's that were capable of doing things that big corporations didn't want them to do.
 
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