Trump Steps Up Attacks on Mail Vote, Making False Claims About Michigan

eohrnberger said:

You did state that voting in person would be more secure.
You also seem to support 100% mail in voting.

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I've said that I don't support 100% mail in voting. I don't know how much clearer I can make "CHOOSE" that to cap it and repeat it. Will making it bigger work?

Those who perceive a deadly risk to voting should have the CHOICE to vote by mail? How's that? Clear now?

You appear to be sacrificing more secure voting for an imagined high level of risk, at least in my opinion. :shrug:

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True, I guess. Old and vulnerable people will correctly "imagine" a high level of risk and vote by mail because it's safer, and they should have that option, same as POTUS, and Melania. Good enough for POTUS good enough for the regular folk IMO.

Based on your statement that in person voting is more secure, you acknowledge the risk associated with mail in voting. I'd like to minimize that risk.
Many state's voter rolls have multiples of their eligible voters, yet, pretty sure bet that everyone on the voter roll will receive a mail in ballot, so exposing the election to risk multiples of their eligible voters. Right?

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You are assuming zero efforts to police mail in votes. My state has had mail in voting for everyone over 60 for as long as I've been paying attention. It was fine in 2016, but not now? What changed, except more people want that CHOICE?

For me, those that can, should vote in person and should practice precautionary social distancing while doing so.
Those that can't vote in person, due to elevated health risk or infirmity, should continue to use absentee ballots.

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I agree, and whether someone is at elevated risk is their choice, not that of the state to grant permission for what the state think might be an elevated risk. Just for example, if I ran a nursing home, I'd require all the workers to vote by mail, so they minimize their risk of catching covid and bringing it back to the facility. Same with lots of people - like me, who cares for my mother in law. It's not all about me with this thing, or you.

What I'm not in favor of is 100% mail in voting. There's far too much risk for all the wrong types of monkey business, given the many multiples of eligible voters on state's voting rolls. Had they been better managed, purge more frequently of ineligible voters, this risk would have been reduced, but I rather doubt that there's time to correct this issue now, before the election. :shrug:

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I've just never seen any evidence that I need to worry about 'voter fraud.' Insider fraud is a risk, but we won't see the best/worst of that...

ClaraD said:

I am glad you made the right choice. I am so sorry for your loss.

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Thank you...

JasperL said:

I've said that I don't support 100% mail in voting. I don't know how much clearer I can make "CHOOSE" that to cap it and repeat it. Will making it bigger work?

Those who perceive a deadly risk to voting should have the CHOICE to vote by mail? How's that? Clear now?



True, I guess. Old and vulnerable people will correctly "imagine" a high level of risk and vote by mail because it's safer, and they should have that option, same as POTUS, and Melania. Good enough for POTUS good enough for the regular folk IMO.



You are assuming zero efforts to police mail in votes. My state has had mail in voting for everyone over 60 for as long as I've been paying attention. It was fine in 2016, but not now? What changed, except more people want that CHOICE?



I agree, and whether someone is at elevated risk is their choice, not that of the state to grant permission for what the state think might be an elevated risk. Just for example, if I ran a nursing home, I'd require all the workers to vote by mail, so they minimize their risk of catching covid and bringing it back to the facility. Same with lots of people - like me, who cares for my mother in law. It's not all about me with this thing, or you.



I've just never seen any evidence that I need to worry about 'voter fraud.' Insider fraud is a risk, but we won't see the best/worst of that...

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'Round and round we go, and we are slowly closing the gap to common ground. Nice to see. :thumb:

You mention insider fraud. There certainly is that.
I'd much prefer as accurate and validated vote as is humanly possible and reasonable, thanks.

eohrnberger said:

'Round and round we go, and we are slowly closing the gap to common ground. Nice to see. :thumb:

You mention insider fraud. There certainly is that.

Southfield city clerk charged with 6 felonies tied to November election
Southfield city clerk charged with 6 felonies tied to November 2018 election

Records: Too many votes in 37% of Detroit’s precincts
Joel Kurth and Jonathan Oosting, The Detroit NewsPublished 11:30 p.m. ET Dec. 12, 2016 | Updated 1:31 p.m. ET Dec. 13, 2016
Voting machines in more than one-third of all Detroit precincts registered more votes than they should have during last month’s presidential election, according to Wayne County records prepared at the request of The Detroit News.
Records: Too many votes in 37% of Detroit’s precincts

More votes than voters in many Detroit precincts: newspaper
(Reuters) - Numerous voting machines in heavily Democratic Detroit showed a greater number of ballots than poll workers records said were cast in the Nov. 8 presidential election, the Detroit News reported on Tuesday.
More votes than voters in many Detroit precincts: newspaper - Reuters

Absent Ballots: Broward County Misplaced Over 2,000 Votes
A hand recount is ongoing for the U.S. Senate and Florida commissioner of agriculture contests
Published November 17, 2018 • Updated on November 17, 2018 at 10:50 pm
https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/absent-ballots-broward-county-misplaced-over-2000-votes/166958/
​

I'd much prefer as accurate and validated vote as is humanly possible and reasonable, thanks.

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So, you show stories about voting machines, which is your excuse to oppose mail in voting. Checks out! :shock: :roll:

This is just like always. It's not about "voter fraud" - it's just any excuse anyone can find to oppose voting that someone has told people is bad because Democrats want it so it might somehow, some way, not work to the benefit of the GOP. Your examples are proof we shouldn't have voting at the polls. You can't eliminate voting, period, in Detroit, although I'm sure the GOP would like that a lot.

JasperL said:

Weird how you ignore the Republican states doing the same thing. Why is that?

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No I did not ignore them, because they are not the majority of republicans and many are still trying to open their states back up. While the democrats are largely trying to keep people locked down, even with new cases of Covid dropping every day.

Yes, serious case. Eight votes allegedly altered. Seems good enough to make old people stand in line and risk death to vote.

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No one is stating that anyone should die, or risk death. So leave the emotional fallacy out of it.

No, that idea is stupid. There's a direct link between voting in person and risk of contracting COVID.

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You used just as arbitrary a reason to disqualify my stance. Because there is a definite link between these mailed votes and issues arising. Take it in stride.

OK, let's assume that mail in voting is less secure. Well, everyone in Tennessee (a deep red state) who is 60 or older can vote by mail. That's not new. It's been on the books for decades. If Gov. Lee (R) expands that to anyone who fears getting sick (I'm under 60 but am VERY careful because I can't in fect my 90yo mother in law), should he be punished by Trump, which is what he threatened Michigan with? Should he try to repeal mail in voting for those 60 and over and restrict it to only those who physically CANNOT vote? If not then why not?

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No one is saying to rush out to the voting booth and stand nut to butt with another person. These votes will still be cast with social distancing measures in place and given the fall in new cases. We may be a more lax method at that point as well.

Bottom line is if a bunch of people take the harder, and slower route of mail in voting, it's because the people, and lots of old people who tend to vote republican, don't want to risk long lines. Anecdotal evidence of fraud in isolated areas isn't reason enough to shut that option off to people legitimately worried about catching COVID. If it is then we should pass a national law making it illegal to vote by mail unless the voter is incapable of casting a ballot in person. Of course we won't do that, and we accept the trade-off with mail in votes because the alternative is lots of folks CAN vote when mail in votes is an option.

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Interesting argument, sans the anecdotal part, because we have actual evidence of fraud.
If the vast majority of people want it do it, then that's fine and I'd be perfectly willing to agree to voting either in person, or by mail. But given what's happened, I don't find myself having much confidence that the mailed in votes would go off without a hitch. Not to mention the fact that if anything else happens. It would just allow whoever doesn't win the election to call the vote into question and demand recounts and removal of suspicious votes.

It's just going to muddy the water even more than it already is.

JasperL said:

So, you show stories about voting machines, which is your excuse to oppose mail in voting. Checks out! :shock: :roll:

This is just like always. It's not about "voter fraud" - it's just any excuse anyone can find to oppose voting that someone has told people is bad because Democrats want it so it might somehow, some way, not work to the benefit of the GOP. Your examples are proof we shouldn't have voting at the polls. You can't eliminate voting, period, in Detroit, although I'm sure the GOP would like that a lot.

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No, those citations posted in agreement with, and in support of, your comment about 'insider fraud' in polling places.
If you don't want me to do that, I can see myself clear not to.

eohrnberger said:

No, those citations posted in agreement with, and in support of, your comment about 'insider fraud' in polling places.
If you don't want me to do that, I can see myself clear not to.

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The point is you're using insider fraud to condemn mail in voting. Basically any type of election or voter fraud is a good reason to restrict mail in voting, in a pandemic I guess. Election fraud by insiders at the polls - restrict mail in voting!! Last election it was "insider fraud, and mail in voter problems - we need more ID!!"

JasperL said:

The point is you're using insider fraud to condemn mail in voting.

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Actually, it was pointing out that it is justified to want elections to be more secure and that there are issues in the present voting system and process.

Between voting in person and voting by mail, it is already acknowledged that voting in person is more secure, although, admittedly, not perfect.

Basically any type of election or voter fraud is a good reason to restrict mail in voting, in a pandemic I guess. Election fraud by insiders at the polls - restrict mail in voting!! Last election it was "insider fraud, and mail in voter problems - we need more ID!!"

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Yes, I am a proponent of voter ID. At my local polling place, you have to show ID before registering for that election, and receiving a ballot.

As posted, it is already acknowledged that voting in person is more secure, although, admittedly, not perfect.

it seems pretty obvious that the Democrats are coming off as desperate. They lost in 2016, and so now they want to get rid of the Electoral College process and add mail in voting (fraud), in an obvious effort to tilt the results in their favor in 2020 In my personal view this is a bad look.

The media's total avoidance of all things Joe Biden is creepy at this point.

Chuck9788 said:

it seems pretty obvious that the Democrats are coming off as desperate. They lost in 2016, and so now they want to get rid of the Electoral College process and add mail in voting (fraud), in an obvious effort to tilt the results in their favor in 2020 In my personal view this is a bad look.

The media's total avoidance of all things Joe Biden is creepy at this point.

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And, we should believe Right Wingers because they are better True Witness bearers than the left?

danielpalos said:

And, we should believe Right Wingers because they are better True Witness bearers than the left?

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Who said anything about right wingers? Do you think all conservatives are "right wingers"?

Daniel YOU and your Hillary Clinton vote LOST in 2016. I believe you are going down that same path in 2020 (this time with "Sleepy" Joe Biden). All that I am contributing here is that the Democratic party is coming off to the (moderate and Independent voters) as acting DESPERATE with this sudden, 4'th quarter, strenuous effort to add mail in voting (fraud) into the voting options.

Chuck9788 said:

Who said anything about right wingers? Do you think all conservatives are "right wingers"?

Daniel YOU and your Hillary Clinton vote LOST in 2016. I believe you are going down that same path in 2020 (this time with "Sleepy" Joe Biden). All that I am contributing here is that the Democratic party is coming off to the (moderate and Independent voters) as acting DESPERATE with this sudden, 4'th quarter, strenuous effort to add mail in voting (fraud) into the voting options.

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You have nothing but right wing propaganda and rhetoric.

Why should anybody take right wingers seriously about economics, the Law (Constitutional or otherwise), or ethics and morals; even with a McCarthy era phrase in our pledge?

Republicans in Florida have often won elections due to Absentee or Mail-in ballots. They must be furious with Trump.

danielpalos said:

You have nothing but right wing propaganda and rhetoric.

Why should anybody take right wingers seriously about economics, the Law (Constitutional or otherwise), or ethics and morals; even with a McCarthy era phrase in our pledge?

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Propaganda? Like Pew Research which found that approximately 24 million — one of eight — voter registrations in the US are no longer valid or significantly inaccurate. And more than 1.8 million registered voters were actually dead, while 2.75 million had registrations in more than one state.

https://www.pewtrusts.org/~/media/l...ets/2012/pewupgradingvoterregistrationpdf.pdf

Chuck9788 said:

Propaganda? Like Pew Research which found that approximately 24 million — one of eight — voter registrations in the US are no longer valid or significantly inaccurate. And more than 1.8 million registered voters were actually dead, while 2.75 million had registrations in more than one state.

https://www.pewtrusts.org/~/media/l...ets/2012/pewupgradingvoterregistrationpdf.pdf

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There is no provisions for excuses in our federal doctrine. Free id to vote!

paul342160 said:

Republicans in Florida have often won elections due to Absentee or Mail-in ballots. They must be furious with Trump.

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This idea might seem foreign to some liberals, but sometimes people take political stances on issues because they actually authentically feel strongly about the issue

ReubenSherr said:

This idea might seem foreign to some liberals, but sometimes people take political stances on issues because they actually authentically feel strongly about the issue

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Yep. Feelings, nothing more than feelings.

Chuck9788 said:

Who said anything about right wingers? Do you think all conservatives are "right wingers"?

Daniel YOU and your Hillary Clinton vote LOST in 2016. I believe you are going down that same path in 2020 (this time with "Sleepy" Joe Biden). All that I am contributing here is that the Democratic party is coming off to the (moderate and Independent voters) as acting DESPERATE with this sudden, 4'th quarter, strenuous effort to add mail in voting (fraud) into the voting options.

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LOL, there's nothing "desperate" about it, and it's not in the 4th quarter. It's 5 months until the election. Most states will have a trial run of mail in ballots in primaries or other elections before November, and can work out the bugs at lower turnout. It's all rationally related to COVID 19, which arose in 2020, and voters will use mail in voting if they feel safer voting that way versus at the polls. It's just states, including a lot of Republican states, providing their voters CHOICES.

And equating mail in voting - which is how TRUMP votes - with voter fraud is just people parroting lies by Trump and his right wing propagandists. It's been good enough for seniors and the military and others like the President and his family for decades, and now in a pandemic, it's unreliable and we must not expand it to provide a safe option for those under 65 or 60 (in my deep red state, Tennessee) because......**** you that's why! Democrats!!! It's just mindless nonsense.