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United Airlines warns of massive layoffs without federal aid

EMNofSeattle said:
Well they can for a short period of time.

After a month the lockdowns will have to be lifted. This cannot be a permanent solution. Airlines are very profitable when people are traveling
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Which is why so many have gone bankrupt, merged etc over time


Heck Warren Buffet up until 2017 said it was a horrible industry to invest in with more money lost than made for investors (Few airlines have been the exception ie Southwest, Ryan Air etc)
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Your post is incoherent, uneducated and makes no sense.

It is not socialism to compensate businesses that are failing because of a temporary crisis necessitating massive government action.

You cannot point to anyway you’ve been “burnt” If an airline receives an interest free loan to keep employees on staff.
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How do you feel about GM and FCA?
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Let's use even more "macro" math. Since it was OK for congress to double the national debt under Obama, let's just have congress give Trump that same deal. ;)
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It did not double under Obama it increased by 74%. (largest by dollar value)

But it was close, it doubled under Bush 2, it did not double under Clinton (as % increase quite small, nor did it double under Bush 1 (only 4 years) It more than doubled under Reagan, (worst president in modern history in that regard
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
United Airlines warns of massive layoffs without federal aid

Obviously our domestic airlines industry is going to require a pretty significant bailout if they are to survive this. However, we would be crazy not to put some conditions on it. For example, they should have to agree to do away with domestic baggage fees.
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I have a good friend who is a senior mechanic in this industry - he got the word today he was "temporarily laid off" for a month.


But helping out crumbling airlines is a slush fund, or something :roll:
 
cpwill said:
I have a good friend who is a senior mechanic in this industry - he got the word today he was "temporarily laid off" for a month.


But helping out crumbling airlines is a slush fund, or something :roll:
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Crumbling? the industry profited 28 Billion last year, and they squandered the tax break they got. Give them a bailout if the fire the CEO's who put them in this situation.
 
j brown's body said:
Gee, with their record profits and corporate tax cuts, I'm surprised rhey aren't in a position to weather the storm. What happened to all that money?
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Yeah, they're profitable all right. They profit about $20 per passenger. And that's only if the plane is almost full.
 
cpwill said:
I have a good friend who is a senior mechanic in this industry - he got the word today he was "temporarily laid off" for a month.


But helping out crumbling airlines is a slush fund, or something :roll:
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I think people are mad that airlines, particularly American Airlines, put most of their income into stock buybacks.

Airlines and Boeing want a bailout — but look how much they’ve spent on stock buybacks - MarketWatch

That said, I think we would be crazy to risk the liquidation of our domestic airline industry. If a major carrier in the U.S. folded, it would almost certainly be China Southern or China Eastern that bought up their assets.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
I think people are mad that airlines, particularly American Airlines, put most of their income into stock buybacks.

Airlines and Boeing want a bailout — but look how much they’ve spent on stock buybacks - MarketWatch

That said, I think we would be crazy to risk the liquidation of our domestic airline industry. If a major carrier in the U.S. folded, it would almost certainly be China Southern or China Eastern that bought up their assets.
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All the majors in the last decade or so have reorganized under Chapter 11. The world did not end.

In the meantime they've had poor business practices. They should do Chapter 11 again. The world will not end and it's better than taxpayer bailout. Considering how many big companies (Amazon) don't even pay federal income taxes, the tax base is pretty much the working people.
 
j brown's body said:
Gee, with their record profits and corporate tax cuts, I'm surprised rhey aren't in a position to weather the storm. What happened to all that money?
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Let not your heart be troubled. The Flight attendant union president was on MSNBC last night bragging about how she, and the Democrats fought a got control of how the bill was written. She said this bill was aimed at making sure the workers are taken care of first. That covers pilots, mechanics, all union workers will be taken care of first. After that, then what’s left will cover the “Airlines” over head cost. I guess things like parts, fuel, planes, stuff like that can make due with what’s left.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
In fact, since each passenger is going to have to sit 6' away from any other passenger, they will be flying a lot more aircraft - right?
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That is compensated by the fact that so few people are flying these days. At half loads or less, it would not be difficult to have 6 foot spacing between passengers.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
United Airlines warns of massive layoffs without federal aid

Obviously our domestic airlines industry is going to require a pretty significant bailout if they are to survive this. However, we would be crazy not to put some conditions on it. For example, they should have to agree to do away with domestic baggage fees.
Click to expand...

They can get zero interest fee loans like everybody else in business to recover. And no backing back stock to enrich only their investors.
 
Thoreau72 said:
That is compensated by the fact that so few people are flying these days. At half loads or less, it would not be difficult to have 6 foot spacing between passengers.
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What you might find amusing is

"The cost of operating a commercial aircraft can be broken down into two main categories: airborne cost and ground cost. The airborne costs are the actual costs of flying the aircraft; the ground costs are the cost of the airframe, engine maintenance, as well as airport and hangar expenses. Both are typically measured hourly and are broken down per mile. The cost per seat mile is the cost of flying one passenger one mile and is used to measure operating costs. The average cost per seat mile is around 7 to 8 cents for low cost carriers and 11 to 12 cents for network carriers.

Labor and fuel are the largest expenses, accounting for about 12% of the total cost. On average, a pilot’s salary begins at $36,000 and caps around $196,000. The average fuel consumption per 100 kilometers is 3.035 liters (78.5 mpg) for turbo props, 3.126 liters (76.3 mpg) for regional jets, 2.405 liters (100.5 mpg) for short haul, 2.74 liters (86.8 mpg) for medium haul, and 2.959 (80.84 mpg) liters for long haul."
[SOURCE]
​

That means that since the air travel shortest distance between New York and Los Angeles is 2,451 miles, it costs the airlines $294.12 (at 12¢/mi) to fly a passenger that distance (and that is assuming that the aircraft is full). The cheapest seat that I could find was a JetBlue super economy one at $83.00 but the stipulations surrounding getting that fare make it more of a bait and switch than an actual price. The major airlines (including JetBlue) appear to have a common price of $249.00 as their "realistic" lowest fare.

If the aircraft is a 500 seater and is flying with only 100 passengers, then the cost per OCCUPIED passenger seat becomes 60¢/mi and that would mean that the "break even" fare would be $1,470.60. Now, a fare of $1,470.60 is obviously impractical, that means that the government is going to have to provide a subsidy of around $88,236 per flight just to ensure that Americans can fly from New York to Disneyland.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
United Airlines warns of massive layoffs without federal aid

Obviously our domestic airlines industry is going to require a pretty significant bailout if they are to survive this. However, we would be crazy not to put some conditions on it. For example, they should have to agree to do away with domestic baggage fees.
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Will never happen. Airlines wont forgo 5 billion in revenue. Now that bag fees are here they are here to stay. I am just thinking the what next fee they will think off. Maybe a seat fee where if you dont pay you just have to stand?

The U.S. Airlines Cashing In The Most On Baggage Fees [Infographic]
 
EnigmaO01 said:
They can get zero interest fee loans like everybody else in business to recover. And no backing back stock to enrich only their investors.
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You do realize that one of the things that delayed the bail-out bill was that the "Republicans" (whatever that means) DID NOT want that "no stock buy backs" provision in the bill and the "Democrats" (whatever that means) DID want that "no stock buy backs" provision in the bill. Of course, if

  1. all of the no interest loan money is put into "Bank Account A", and
    *
  2. all of the fare revenue is put into "Bank Account B", and
    *
  3. the money withdrawn from "Bank Account A" is used SOLELY for operating expenses, and
    *
  4. some of the money from "Bank Account B" is used for operating expenses, and
    *
  5. the rest of the money from "Bank Account B" is used for stock buy backs

then the provision that none of the loan money be used for stock buy backs has been scrupulously observed.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
What you might find amusing is

"The cost of operating a commercial aircraft can be broken down into two main categories: airborne cost and ground cost. The airborne costs are the actual costs of flying the aircraft; the ground costs are the cost of the airframe, engine maintenance, as well as airport and hangar expenses. Both are typically measured hourly and are broken down per mile. The cost per seat mile is the cost of flying one passenger one mile and is used to measure operating costs. The average cost per seat mile is around 7 to 8 cents for low cost carriers and 11 to 12 cents for network carriers.

Labor and fuel are the largest expenses, accounting for about 12% of the total cost. On average, a pilot’s salary begins at $36,000 and caps around $196,000. The average fuel consumption per 100 kilometers is 3.035 liters (78.5 mpg) for turbo props, 3.126 liters (76.3 mpg) for regional jets, 2.405 liters (100.5 mpg) for short haul, 2.74 liters (86.8 mpg) for medium haul, and 2.959 (80.84 mpg) liters for long haul."
[SOURCE]
​

That means that since the air travel shortest distance between New York and Los Angeles is 2,451 miles, it costs the airlines $294.12 (at 12¢/mi) to fly a passenger that distance (and that is assuming that the aircraft is full). The cheapest seat that I could find was a JetBlue super economy one at $83.00 but the stipulations surrounding getting that fare make it more of a bait and switch than an actual price. The major airlines (including JetBlue) appear to have a common price of $249.00 as their "realistic" lowest fare.

If the aircraft is a 500 seater and is flying with only 100 passengers, then the cost per OCCUPIED passenger seat becomes 60¢/mi and that would mean that the "break even" fare would be $1,470.60. Now, a fare of $1,470.60 is obviously impractical, that means that the government is going to have to provide a subsidy of around $88,236 per flight just to ensure that Americans can fly from New York to Disneyland.
Click to expand...

Yes, having been in the aviation business my entire life, I know that the accountants have a field day in determining and attributing costs and revenue.

In my old age, I would rather ride the train than the airlines, mainly because I can't stand the terminals post 911.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
United Airlines warns of massive layoffs without federal aid

Obviously our domestic airlines industry is going to require a pretty significant bailout if they are to survive this. However, we would be crazy not to put some conditions on it. For example, they should have to agree to do away with domestic baggage fees.
Click to expand...

Our downfall is our own creation. A complete economy collapses in a situation such as Covid-19 because for decades the rich have become wealthier, the top 10% owns just about everything. Boeing has been in financial distress and close to bankruptcy for years. They just took a 70 billion dollar loan that they aren't going to be able to pay back. But Boeing will get more of our tax dollars because they're 'too big to fail'. What makes them too big to fail? Boeing employs 135,000 people and possibly another 200,000 sub-contractors. So how do you ramp it up again if Boeing fails? Those 300k + people would collect their 26 weeks of unemployment then get in soup line that's a block long.


Airlines are begging for a bailout, but they've used 96% of their cash flow on buybacks over the past 10 years. It highlights an ongoing controversy over how companies have been spending their money.

Airlines are begging for a bailout, but they've used 96% of their cash flow on buybacks over the past 10 years. It highlights an ongoing controversy over how companies have been spending their money. | Markets Insider
 
Thoreau72 said:
Yes, having been in the aviation business my entire life, I know that the accountants have a field day in determining and attributing costs and revenue.

In my old age, I would rather ride the train than the airlines, mainly because I can't stand the terminals post 911.
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Besides, they get really upset if you walk around and talk to people on aircraft (and they don't have as many bathrooms per passenger either).
 
The joke running around the internet is that we should tell the airlines we're giving them a bailout, but keep delaying it over and over and eventually cancel it and give them hotel vouchers.
 
I don’t care if AA goes out of business. Someone else will take their place.

I refuse to fly thanks to long lines and the TSA, If I want to go cross country, I’ll Drive.

Ive done Albuquerque to Mobile Al, less than 2 days, no big deal.
(6 hr stop at motel). Cheaper than AA tickets.
 
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