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Thread: Phoenix artists don't have to make LGBTQ wedding invitations, Arizona Supreme Court rules

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    Re: Phoenix artists don't have to make LGBTQ wedding invitations, Arizona Supreme Court rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Lisa View Post
    I don't know enough about you to say if you support Nazi ideas.
    Why would that matter? You've already called me a 'racist apologist', despite the clear evidence that it is you who are the racist. But you aren't even aware of it, despite having it explained to you more than once. I understand also it's not deliberate. Like many, such as hose Berkeley students, you just don't know any better.
    The guilt or innocence is central to the situation, unless anyone whose skin color is not orange is a problem for Donald Trump.
    That's just silly and we're not here to retry the case.
    So an accusation is enough io prove that the accused is guilty? That's all part of the leftist program these days. It's much worse now than McCarthyism ever was.

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    Re: Phoenix artists don't have to make LGBTQ wedding invitations, Arizona Supreme Court rules

    Quote Originally Posted by marke View Post
    The democrats who created the KKK knew they intended to use it to stop republicans from helping blacks integrate into southern society. They just didn't know how stupid and evil they were for doing that, just like modern democrats do not know how stupid and evil they are for trying to illegally and immorality remove Trump from office.
    You have made this same apologist claim over and over. I'm tired of addressing your lies that you ignore.
    Condor060 said; Who was talking about Jesus? I posted scriptures from the bible. Try and keep up
    Quote Originally Posted by Elvira View Post
    Facts are not truth...

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    Salem ac Leporem Lisa's Avatar
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    Re: Phoenix artists don't have to make LGBTQ wedding invitations, Arizona Supreme Court rules

    Quote Originally Posted by marke View Post
    You seem to think all southern democrats were southern baptists. A whole lot of KKK members were Catholics as well, not to mention both non-Christians and other denominations.
    I'm tired of your ignorance and your lies. The Klan hates Catholics as much as Jews. The KKK is made up of Protestant christians.


    Do Catholics who oppose immigration to the United States today know that they join a long tradition deeply rooted in anti-Catholicism? In its most virulent form, this fear of "aliens" fueled the rise a century ago of a popular and quite powerful Ku Klux Klan. The persistence of that KKK spirit in America, and especially its flowering in recent years, sparked Linda Gordon to re-examine that earlier period. The result, The Second Coming of the KKK, is a compelling exploration of a very troubling movement whose values have taken root in some ironic soil today.

    The KKK has had three main manifestations in American history. It started in the wake of the Civil War as a male fraternal order dedicated to a violent reassertion of white supremacy in the American South, and to undermining the federal government's progress toward racial equality for black and white Southerners during Reconstruction. This terrorist version died out as white Southerners successfully re-imposed racial hierarchy through legal segregation.

    The KKK next flourished in the early 20th century in reaction to the rush of largely Catholic and Jewish immigrants to America, and also to the release of D.W. Griffith's "The Birth of a Nation," which extolled the KKK's role in forming a new nation after the Civil War. This KKK lasted only for about a decade, fading quickly after Congress drastically restricted immigration in the early 1920s and KKK leaders were caught up in high-profile sexual and financial scandals.
    Condor060 said; Who was talking about Jesus? I posted scriptures from the bible. Try and keep up
    Quote Originally Posted by Elvira View Post
    Facts are not truth...

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    Re: Phoenix artists don't have to make LGBTQ wedding invitations, Arizona Supreme Court rules

    Quote Originally Posted by marke View Post
    You seem to think all southern democrats were southern baptists. A whole lot of KKK members were Catholics as well, not to mention both non-Christians and other denominations.
    It's the usual diversionary tactic. They also try to call them 'conservative'. All of that is much easier to accept than that they were Democrats.

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    Re: Phoenix artists don't have to make LGBTQ wedding invitations, Arizona Supreme Court rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Lisa View Post
    I'm tired of your ignorance and your lies. The Klan hates Catholics as much as Jews. The KKK is made up of Protestant christians.
    The KKK, Democrats all, hated a great many people and that's still true of them today.

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    Re: Phoenix artists don't have to make LGBTQ wedding invitations, Arizona Supreme Court rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred C Dobbs II View Post
    In fact you have no idea what I'd 'be fine with' and your religious thoughts and feelings can remain private.
    Oh, but I do. Your inability to discuss the subject and instead revert to my "religious thoughts and feelings" is pretty much par for the course and duly noted.
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    Re: Phoenix artists don't have to make LGBTQ wedding invitations, Arizona Supreme Court rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    I'm sorry, but I disagree with your overview of the situation.

    In both this case and the case involving the Colorado baker, nobody was mistreated, discriminated against or treated like second class citizens. This was simply a moral/religious objection to same sex marriages, and whether you agree with those beliefs or not, they have every right to both hold such beliefs, and to choose not to labor on behalf of them. As I've stated, I think both the printer and the baker's actions were stupid, but stupid or not, they should not be forced to create something for an activity they religiously and morally object to.

    Look, I've had a hand full of live-in girlfriends in my lifetime and if some baker wouldn't create a cake to celebrate my 2 year anniversary of "living in sin" based on some religious objection, after I stopped laughing, I'd simply find another baker. Heck, I might even have a few select words for the guy, but I sure hell wouldn't take steps to either legally force his compliance or financially punish him. People believe what they believe and even if I don't agree with them, I respect their right to have those beliefs. Like I've said so many times, tolerance is a two way street.
    No need to be sorry. When a vendor who operates in the public sphere refuses service to a customer because he doesn't like gay people, then that fits the definition of discrimination. I also find it rather unseemly that you would try to equate a refusal of your service for a celebration of your heterosexual union (which doesn't happen in any real sense; hence, your reversion to finding another baker) with refusals of service to homosexual couples who have to deal, sometimes often, with people who claim that gay people can't participate in secular society because someone thinks their god hates gay people.

    The gay couple in this scenario are not trying to change anyone's beliefs. Disagreement with homosexuality is a personal problem and a mental health issue. The gay couple simply want to receive the same benefits of service that straight people have.

    I am ashamed to acknowledge that in the year 2020 people are using the same beat up arguments against gay people that failed against interracial couples. We don't have to tolerate discrimination. If you can't serve the public, don't open a public business. Easy peasy.
    "There was a child went forth every day,
    And the first object he look'd upon, that object he became"
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    Re: Phoenix artists don't have to make LGBTQ wedding invitations, Arizona Supreme Court rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel View Post
    No need to be sorry. When a vendor who operates in the public sphere refuses service to a customer because he doesn't like gay people, then that fits the definition of discrimination.
    Try making your point based on facts, not baseless assumptions. In neither case, was any evidence presented showing that they didn't like gay people, or any instance in the past where they refused to serve anyone based on their sexual orientation.

    Assumptions aren't evidence... No evidence, no facts.


    I also find it rather unseemly that you would try to equate a refusal of your service for a celebration of your heterosexual union (which doesn't happen in any real sense; hence, your reversion to finding another baker) with refusals of service to homosexual couples who have to deal, sometimes often, with people who claim that gay people can't participate in secular society because someone thinks their god hates gay people.
    Gay or straight makes no difference. A religious objection to an event celebrating shacking up with a woman, or celebrating a same sex wedding, are still considered sins to many Christians. As long as they don't treat me like a fricken leper or give me a bunch of crap about living with a woman out of wedlock, I don't have a problem with them refusing to create a damned cake for me. Especially if they are respectful and don't kick me out of their establishment.


    The gay couple in this scenario are not trying to change anyone's beliefs. Disagreement with homosexuality is a personal problem and a mental health issue. The gay couple simply want to receive the same benefits of service that straight people have.
    Nobody is preventing, or trying to prevent, the couple from getting married. This is just a few businesses that don't want to provide services for an event that violates the tenets of their religion.

    It isn't rocket science and it damned sure isn't discrimination.

    EDIT: I also wanted to point out that I don't have a dog in this fight. I've looked at this thing objectively and I've not shown any animosity toward either side.... but I noticed that you have expressed anger and a clear dislike toward religion and those who embrace it. Personally, that's what I find unseemly.
    Last edited by Grim17; 04-05-20 at 12:37 AM.

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    Re: Phoenix artists don't have to make LGBTQ wedding invitations, Arizona Supreme Court rules

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    Try making your point based on facts, not baseless assumptions. In neither case, was any evidence presented showing that they didn't like gay people, or any instance in the past where they refused to serve anyone based on their sexual orientation.

    Assumptions aren't evidence... No evidence, no facts.




    Gay or straight makes no difference. A religious objection to an event celebrating shacking up with a woman, or celebrating a same sex wedding, are still considered sins to many Christians. As long as they don't treat me like a fricken leper or give me a bunch of crap about living with a woman out of wedlock, I don't have a problem with them refusing to create a damned cake for me. Especially if they are respectful and don't kick me out of their establishment.




    Nobody is preventing, or trying to prevent, the couple from getting married. This is just a few businesses that don't want to provide services for an event that violates the tenets of their religion.

    It isn't rocket science and it damned sure isn't discrimination.

    EDIT: I also wanted to point out that I don't have a dog in this fight. I've looked at this thing objectively and I've not shown any animosity toward either side.... but I noticed that you have expressed anger and a clear dislike toward religion and those who embrace it. Personally, that's what I find unseemly.
    Oh. Then we have no basis for a productive discussion. People who don't serve gay people because they're gay are assholes. I won't give any quarter to sloppy excuses whether you present them or the asshole invitation non-makers present them. Discrimination is a form of dislike. You can try to rationalize until you run out of breath, but it's just not a thing that good people do to other people, gay or otherwise.

    No one asked the stationery makers to attend or support an event. They have to follow public accommodation laws. They can't because they don't like gay people or gay "events". No problem. They simply need to pick a different job and stop trying to make gay people's lives worse. That's probably what their god wants, but people like that are probably beyond help already.

    Your perception of my opinion as "expressed anger and a clear dislike toward religion" is utterly, confoundingly stupid. No one's religious beliefs are any of my business. Nor is my sexuality any religious person's business. Pick a job you can do and stop bitching when people insist that they be treated the way the law demands that you treat them.
    "There was a child went forth every day,
    And the first object he look'd upon, that object he became"
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    Re: Phoenix artists don't have to make LGBTQ wedding invitations, Arizona Supreme Court rules

    Polygamy must be legal in Phoenix.

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