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Trump says Russia supporting his reelection 'another misinformation campaign'

I hope the idiots on the left can just give up on these damn smears.
It didn't work last time and it damn well isn't going to work this time either.
 
Really? You don't care about being lied on a daily basis by the most prodigious and prolific liar in American political and presidential history? Because you only care about 'results'? Even if not all the results are his to claim? You and I don;t know yet what the 'results' are going to be from his policy decisions. That takes time to manifest itself. But I fully expect that chickens Mr Trump has hatched are going to come home to roost one day. Maybe not before 2020 as this President is totally focused on doing whatever he can to keep the economy plugging along until then. Even it means ignoring the science and the scientists in his dealings with the corona-virus because it might negatively impact the economy and therefore his re-election chances. Not to mention how sad it is that his first concern was the virus's impact upon his re-election chances came ahead of any concerns about it's potential impact upon the safety of the American public.

When I am lied to the results show it, results always trump rhetoric. You buy what the left tells you and call exaggerations lies but your double standards are on full display as is your hypocrisy.

How quickly NY Times forgets Obama's lies and frauds | TheHill

Wondered how long it would take radicals to blame Trump for the Coronavirus. Right on cue!!
 
I hope the idiots on the left can just give up on these damn smears.
It didn't work last time and it damn well isn't going to work this time either.

Not going to happen, it is in the DNA of a radical.
 
I accept the findings of our military and intelligence services along with the Mueller investigation. Do you?

They found Russian interference and no Trump complicity.
 
That's a shill argument.

Russian individual <> Russian government

The data in thr Steele dossier was provided by Russian individuals who happen to be opposed to Putin.

Steele doesn't know where much of the intelligence came from.
As he himself has said, it was "gossip" from 2nd, 3rd, and even 4th hand account.
Why would you trust those Russian sources?
 
You would prefer that US hardware falls into Separatist hands and is used against the Ukrainians. Great plan chief.

There is always risk of US arms falling into the hands of the enemy in war. See Syria and ISIS...

But you are trying to argue in a vacuum. If Ukraine had been better armed, and could trust the US to be a solid ally, they likely wouldn't have felt the need to save their own skin by defecting. We saw the same thing play out in Iraq after Obama pulled US troops out.

It wouldn't have changed a damn thing, and that's why you fail. Your fascination with technology belies how little you understand of warfare.

Your hand waving nonsense isn't a valid argument. Your idiotic "technology doesn't really matter" stance runs against a history of ceaseless counter-arguments.

I think what is happening in your head is you are mixing up asymmetric warfare, where technology doesn't always decide the outcome.. those it still does quite often, and conventional air and land combat where technology almost always decides the outcome. Your brain is so broken on this that your attempt prove your point had you listing battles that were demonstrably decided by technology.

Giving Ukrainians weapons would not have changed the outcome of the invasion, no matter how hard to masturbate to American military hardware. It was a question of skill.

.. what a weird statement. You have fallen into a myopic trap where you have to believe that there is no other possible outcome just so that your can defend the clear mistakes made by your preferred political party. Moreover, you you then try to argue that NOW technology would help in Ukraine because you think it helps you politically. "Better technology wouldn't have he;lped Ukraine when Obama was president, but now that Trump is president it is a essential and a matter of national security!" ... seriously, you should be ashamed of how ideologically bankrupt your arguments have become. :roll:

What happened to the Ukrainians is the same thing that happened to the Georgians in 2008; they fell apart upon contact with an actually well trained fighting force.

Good golly are you bad at this. Georgia and Russia were fighting with essentially the same equipment in 2008 and, if anything, Russia had the technological advantage since they were fielding the latest arms and armor produced by Russia while Georgia was armed with old Soviet cast-offs. :doh

Because that's stupid and makes no sense?

You are the one who can't seem to find an actual example to your stupid position and keep tripping into example after example of why you are wrong.

And now you are arguing that Russia just accidentally happened to have a combat ready attack force poised to move into Ukraine... but wasn't planning on doing anything? Seriously, you need to take a step back and think about what you are arguing.

Euromaiden was not part of Russian planning, nor was the ousting of Yanukovych. That's why Russian forces that seized Crimea were all special forces or VDV, troops that could be rapidly mobilized and deployed with little warning.

Euromaidan was a response to the long Russian program of coopting Ukraine. The Separatist movement that sprang as a response to the political fallout of that movement was ABSOLUTELY done with the help and backing of Russia. Are you trying to argue that the puppet separatist movement in Crimea had no knowledge that they had the military backing of the Russian government that wholly funded and trained them if they declared allegiance to Russia? You want to then go on to argue that Putin had no intention of stepping in when the outgunned separatists lost?

Again, you argue against your own point. The Ukrainian forces were greater in number and had greater firepower than the Russian separatists, so the loss of the Separatists was a foregone conclusion by either your or my metric, so since Putin had to also know this, and clearly was intent on intervening, he had long known he would intervene... moreover, the Separatist must have also known he would intervene otherwise they wouldn't have pulled the trigger on independence in the first place.
 
Yes, you've seen the History Channel documentary on 73 Easting, very impressive.

What? I have friends and relatives who served in the Gulf war. I get my information from them, and the news at at the time of the invasion. But hey, I guess I know where you got your info, now! :lamo

Yeah, very easily. The Iraqis had T-72s and Abrams in 2014 and they still collapsed against ISIS. And they've done even worse before.

The Iraqis didn't field the T-72s or the Abrams against ISIS. They pulled them back to protect Baghdad. Also, are you arguing that ISIS was a better trained army than the Iraqis?

The only know instance of large scale deploytmnet of Abrams against ISIS in the early days was when some Iranian backed militias commandeered some Abrams and beat the **** out of ISIS, returning them to the Iraqis after they ran out of ammo.

(more later)
 
What? I have friends and relatives who served in the Gulf war.

So do I.

But I get my information from "Arabs at War" by Andrew Pollack. What is your source? An actual, scholarly source, not just "my uncle said this and that".

The Iraqis didn't field the T-72s or the Abrams against ISIS. They pulled them back to protect Baghdad.

They didn't pull them back. The Iraqis actually abandoned most of their Abrams because they couldn't maintain them, instead pulling out the older but more reliable T-72s.

Also, are you arguing that ISIS was a better trained army than the Iraqis?

Bette trained? Hard to quantify. Better motivated and led? Yeah.

The only know instance of large scale deploytmnet of Abrams against ISIS in the early days was when some Iranian backed militias commandeered some Abrams and beat the **** out of ISIS, returning them to the Iraqis after they ran out of ammo.

You wanna try that again?

Iraqi Abrams losses revealed | Jane's 360
 
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Ukraine had been better armed, and could trust the US to be a solid ally, they likely wouldn't have felt the need to save their own skin by defecting.

This is nonsensical. Most the Ukrainian troops who defected did so within the first few days, and tended to be ethnic Russians or native Russian speakers. The idea that they would forgo that just because the US is stupid.

Your brain is so broken on this that your attempt prove your point had you listing battles that were demonstrably decided by technology.

Please tell me what magic technology aided the Iranians at Basra, the VC at Ap Bac, or the Israelis at Ashod. You are obsessed with the idea that technology is a silver bullet that can solve anything, and you are demonstrating complete ignorance of military affairs. I mean even basic history disagrees with you!

The Germans in WWII had spearheads moving 100-200 kilometers a day, while the bulk of their army marched about 30Km. The Iraqi initial advance into Iran, conducted against virtually no resistance, was 8 kilometers.

Moreover, you you then try to argue that NOW technology would help in Ukraine because you think it helps you politically. "Better technology wouldn't have he;lped Ukraine when Obama was president, but now that Trump is president it is a essential and a matter of national security!" ... seriously, you should be ashamed of how ideologically bankrupt your arguments have become.

That's never been my statement, you're just clueless to realize that. Giving weapons to the Ukrainians is alright now because by now the corruption in their armed forces has been lessened and you don't have mass defections anymore.

if anything, Russia had the technological advantage since they were fielding the latest arms and armor produced by Russia while Georgia was armed with old Soviet cast-offs. :doh

And you once again demonstrate your ignorance.

The 58th Army and the South Ossetians largely fielded un-upgraded models from the days of the USSR while the Georgians had spent millions upgrading their hardware with Israeli and Ukrainian assistance. The Georgians, in fact, fielded better, more modernized equipment.

And now you are arguing that Russia just accidentally happened to have a combat ready attack force poised to move into Ukraine... but wasn't planning on doing anything?

The Russians didn't enter into east Ukraine until months after Euromaiden. The forces that seized Crimea on the other hand were rapid reaction forces that are pretty much on standby 24/7, you know, the same as some US military forces.

Euromaidan was a response to the long Russian program of coopting Ukraine.

What? That's not even what I said: I said Russia did not plan Euromaiden.


The Separatist movement that sprang as a response to the political fallout of that movement was ABSOLUTELY done with the help and backing of Russia.

But it wasn't launched by Russia, it was launched by East Ukrainians who didn't want to answer to Kiev. It was then supported by Russia, but don't think for a moment that nobody in Donbass wanted to revolt until Russia told them too.

Are you trying to argue that the puppet separatist movement in Crimea had no knowledge that they had the military backing of the Russian government that wholly funded and trained them if they declared allegiance to Russia? You want to then go on to argue that Putin had no intention of stepping in when the outgunned separatists lost?

I never argued against the idea of any that, you're just making up **** now so you think you can make a point. My point was always that Putin was reacting to developments; he didn't cause the Ukrainains to revolt against their corrupt government, but once it happened he reacted to it. That's not even up for debate, unless you really want to suggest Putin was really the mastermind behind the whole revolution.

The Ukrainian forces were greater in number and had greater firepower than the Russian separatists, so the loss of the Separatists was a foregone conclusion by either your or my metric

Just like how the vastly better armed and larger Iraqi forces crushed Iran in 1980, right? Oh wait.

moreover, the Separatist must have also known he would intervene otherwise they wouldn't have pulled the trigger on independence in the first place.

Okay, this is just a stupid line of thinking.

When has an independence movement ever started with anything other the assumption they would win? That doesn't require the necessity of believing that you'll get help. Did the Continental Army from day one know the French were eventually going to help blockade the British in Yorktown? Of course not.
 
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So do I.

But I get my information from "Arabs at War" by Andrew Pollack. What is your source? An actual, scholarly source, not just "my uncle said this and that".

Hah! Don't you mean Kenneth Pollack? :lamo

Speaking of ACTUAL scholarly spources, you might want to try Victory Misunderstood: What the Gulf War Tells Us about the Future of Conflict by Stephen Biddle which details the cascade of Iraqi failures in the Gulf War that stem not only from the huge disparity on technological combat effectiveness, but the major miscalculations made by the Iraqi military born of their ignorance of US military technology... they miscalculated US weapon accuracy, the penetration capability of the US sabot rounds, the left-hook through a desert that the Iraqis assumed couldn't be navigated landed US forces engaging Republican guard which had been set up in the rear, assuming a frontal assualt, and so on.

You should read it, it's a good read. It takes a more middle ground between our two positions, but much of what he sees as middle ground is, in my view, miscalculations born from an Iraqi profound misunderstanding of US war fighting technology.

For example, hear is a passage about the engagement at 73 Easting:

Eastings.jpg

First, the reason why Iraqi commanders didn't translate the radio silence as a sign of combat is because 1) They wouldn't expect a strike to be so quick as to obliterate forward post before they could get out an alert and 2) The silence was from forward positions that they assumed couldn't be engaged without the enemy breaching their front lines. Both assumptions were born of the ignorance of the US ability to navigate the desert.

Further in the same passage, regarding US troop skills there is this:

eastings2.jpg

But the author only hints at WHY the US troops were able to maintain disciplined formations in that sandstorm. The reason was because, unlike the T-72, the Abrams and Bradleys didn't need line of sight to maintain distance and formation. The only thing that complicated the US ability in that battle, for example, was the inability to tell friend from foe within the optics. When they were able to determine an enemy they could destroy it while the enemy was largely incapable of return fire when in a dust cloud.

I'll have to get to the rest of this later.
 
Speaking of ACTUAL scholarly spources,

I love how to try to capitalize ACTUAL as if you're implying Pollack's book is worthless.

I'll give you credit for at least presenting a source, so let's dive into this.


the left-hook through a desert that the Iraqis assumed couldn't be navigated landed US forces engaging Republican guard which had been set up in the rear, assuming a frontal assualt, and so on.

Which would have been obvious to anyone with a basic sense of tactics that keeping their flank unprotected was a bad idea.

miscalculations born from an Iraqi profound misunderstanding of US war fighting technology.

Why do you think Iraq didn't consider American technology? Iraq surely was aware that the United States was the premier military power given it had just spent the last four decades preparing to fight World War III, and that as the largest and best funded military in the world might have some good toys to play with.

In fact, failing to recognize that might even be considered a pretty bad case of incompetence.

For example, hear is a passage about the engagement at 73 Easting.

Alright, I'll give you credit where it's due for getting a source. However,

The fact that the very first thing the Iraqi forward tanks did not do upon coming under fire was hop on the radio and inform their superiors represents a complete failure in tasking. The whole point of an forward observation position to provide early warning for the main body. I don't see any evidence to suggest that Eagle Troop was jamming Iraqi radio frequencies, which offers only two explanations; the Iraqi forces were all destroyed faster than they can get on a radio, or the Iraqis simply failed to do so. Even given the rapid assault by Eagle Troop 23 minutes is still plenty of time for someone to report the engagement. The fact that the commander interpreted silence as evidence of no attack, rather than relying on reports at an interval, a very basic tactical exercise, speaks a lot about how bad Iraqi communication standards were. McMaster came upon the second Iraqi tank company while they were still in their ledger; the fact that even ten minutes after the initial engagement they had no idea what was going on, nor were they prepared for action, speaks very poorly of their situational awareness.

Even worse, not long after the scout platoon consisting of two Bradley's managed to wipe out five more tanks. The Bradley can only fire two TOWs at a time; that means they had time to reload and fire all before even a single Iraqi tank fired upon them.

Cleary the Republican Guard fought hard; 2nd ACR described Iraqi troops exiting their destroyed vehicles and continuing to attack with RPGs and machineguns. But fighting hard doesn't mean fighting well. The fact that the Iraqi counterattack was to launch a straight frontal assault against the US forces doesn't speak well of their tactical inclination.

And this was the best the Iraqis had! The Tawakalna was the best they had, and the fact that they were crushed so easily, while failing to perform basic tasks like situational reports, regular radio checks, or even basic situation awareness speaks volumes about their actual quality as soldiers.

[/I]
But the author only hints at WHY the US troops were able to maintain disciplined formations in that sandstorm. The reason was because, unlike the T-72, the Abrams and Bradleys didn't need line of sight to maintain distance and formation.

But not every engagement occurred in a sandstorm, nor does a sandstorm inhibit all forms of communication. Yet we saw this same pattern repeated throughout the Gulf War; Iraqi commanders failing report their situation to their superiors.

Again, the 52nd Brigade provides a perfect example.

"Late on 24 February, the commander of the 52nd [Tank] Brigade received a frantic message from the headquarters of the 48th Infantry Division - directly in front of his unit - that they were being overrun by American armored forces. Nevertheless, because he had not received orders from divisional command, the officer did nothing: he did not ready his brigade to move or fight; he did not even contact divisional headquarters to report the message and ask if he should counterattack. As a result, the 48th Infantry Division was overwhelmed by the US 1st Mechanized Division, and the 52nd Brigade was later overrun by the British 1st Armoured Division without much of a fight."

-Arabs at War, p.259

All across the KTO Iraqi forces completely fell apart upon contact with Coalition forces, with even relatively intact and capable armored divisions launching completely inept counterattacks that failed to do any significant damage to Coalition forces.
 
I love how to try to capitalize ACTUAL ...

Which Pollack are you speaking of this time? :lol:

And no, I'm not saying Pollack's book is worthless, I am saying it is myopic. Even myopic scholarly works are of use as they can sometimes give you more understanding of their narrow subject than a work that takes the opposing view.

Which would have ... unprotected was a bad idea.

They didn't know that US GPS technology allowed them to traverse the desert. They believed the desert was a natural protection of their flank because their technology didn't allow them to navigate it. They had no concept of the US technological capabilities.

Why do you think Iraq didn't consider American technology? ... bad case of incompetence.

Because few people knew about it in 1991. GPS was a rather young technology, and had never been used to coordinate mass troop movements.

Alright, I'll give you credit ... situation to their superiors.

Again you fail to grasp what the Iraqis faced when the shooting started. For one, they had sustained a month of aerial bombardment before the attack began, and the initial engagements largely had the Iraqis blind as to the source of the attack. Plus communications had been disrupted by that aerial bombardment AND because of the wrong assumption of a safe place, most of the tank teams were not in their tanks at the start of the engagement. As Biddle explains in his paper, the losses were a combination of false assumptions by the Iraqis of the US military capabilities, and their false assumptions created disadvantages that superior US technology enabled US forces to exploit dramatically.

Again, the 52nd Brigade provides a perfect example.

"Late on 24 February,...

I'm not arguing that Iraqis didn't make mistakes, quite the opposite, I am saying that the technology employed by the US forces allowed them to exploit the mistakes of the Iraq forces.

The Iraqi defenses were also built around the assumption that the US would largely be firing HEAT rounds, and that their sand berms to largely detonate the HEAT, saving the tank behind it. The US forces reported that the APDS rounds that they were firing slid through the protective berm like it wasn't there, passed through the tank behind it, and kept on going.

You are arguing in a vacuum. You want to argue that the Iraqis broke quickly and surrendered, but can't admit that the reason they broke so quickly was because of the air power superiority that pounded them for weeks before the invasion and the clearly overmatched equipment they had to fight with.

AND, it should be pointed out, the US air superiority was itself achieved through a huge technological gap, with many of the sorties to destroy Iraqi air defenses coming from stealth aircraft that the Iraqis couldn't properly track.

Bombing from planes they couldn't detect, attacks from directions they didn't think possible, AP rounds that easily defeated their armor from ranges they didn't think possible, unrelenting bombing that they could do nothing about... but yeah, it was really just the discipline of US troops that caused the Iraqis to break, right? :roll:

All across the KTO Iraqi forces completely fell apart upon contact with Coalition forces ... significant damage to Coalition forces.

See above. They had been subjected to bombing for weeks that they couldn't defend against, and encountered military weaponry doing things they didn't think were possible. Yeah, they broke. Most were broken by the air campaign before the US troops even arrived.

A friend of mine who was a tank commander in the Gulf War said that the most common request of those surrendering was to stop the "steel rain", referring to the cluster bombs and MLRS that the US used to soften targets before approach.

One last point, and more just as an offering to a fellow avid military reader, is this story that will stick with me from the same tank commander. Just a short observation of his:

His platoon was one of the first to arrive on the scene of what would become known as the "highway of death", Highway 80 leaving Kuwait city after US air power destroyed the retreating Iraqi forces. The thing he said will stick with him forever was the smell. When he said that I was thinking he was going to say something about burning oil, charred meat, or "death", etc. but he just chuckled and said "No, man, it smelled like the perfume counter at Macy's" ... apparently among the stolen goods that the Iraqis were trying to flee with were numerous crates of expensive perfume, which covered everything on the scene. He said it was the must surreal experience of the whole war for him. His eyes and his nose were in different realities.
 
Correct. So why do you think Trump and many of the Trumpeteers keep denying Russian interference?

Because that interference you are talking about didn't really happen but Russia is getting exactly what they wanted from people like you, distortions, misinformation, chaos, and distrust of the American election process. Russia didn't change any votes, Hillary did and the more you keep claiming that the more galvanized the support becomes FOR Trump
 
Steele doesn't know where much of the intelligence came from.
As he himself has said, it was "gossip" from 2nd, 3rd, and even 4th hand account.
Why would you trust those Russian sources?

Trump trusts Russian sources, even Vladimir Putin himself despite years of documentation to the contrary provided by our military and intelligence services. Why do you think he does that?
 
Because that interference you are talking about didn't really happen but Russia is getting exactly what they wanted from people like you, distortions, misinformation, chaos, and distrust of the American election process. Russia didn't change any votes, Hillary did and the more you keep claiming that the more galvanized the support becomes FOR Trump

Thanks, once again, for you confirming you side with Putin against the military and intelligence services of the United States of America. Sad.

https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf
Russian efforts to influence the 2016 US presidential election represent the most recent expression

of Moscow’s longstanding desire to undermine the US-led liberal democratic order, but these
activities demonstrated a significant escalation in directness, level of activity, and scope of effort
compared to previous operations.

We assess Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered an influence campaign in 2016 aimed at the US
presidential election. Russia’s goals were to undermine public faith in the US democratic process,
denigrate Secretary Clinton, and harm her electability and potential presidency. We further assess
Putin and the Russian Government developed a clear preference for President-elect Trump. We
have high confidence in these judgments.

 We also assess Putin and the Russian Government aspired to help President-elect Trump’s
election chances when possible by discrediting Secretary Clinton and publicly contrasting her
unfavorably to him. All three agencies agree with this judgment. CIA and FBI have high confidence
in this judgment; NSA has moderate confidence.

 Moscow’s approach evolved over the course of the campaign based on Russia’s understanding of the
electoral prospects of the two main candidates. When it appeared to Moscow that Secretary Clinton
was likely to win the election, the Russian influence campaign began to focus more on undermining
her future presidency.

 Further information has come to light since Election Day that, when combined with Russian behavior
since early November 2016, increases our confidence in our assessments of Russian motivations and
goals.

One day I hope justice comes to all of those who have committed treason against our great nation and the Constitution of the United States of America.
 
Thanks, once again, for you confirming you side with Putin against the military and intelligence services of the United States of America. Sad.

https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf

One day I hope justice comes to all of those who have committed treason against our great nation and the Constitution of the United States of America.

How is releasing official documents interference, looks like the Democrats created the problem their self but the bottom line is that Russia didn't change votes, Hillary did. This country interferes all over the world in elections but because the 2016 didn't turn out the way you wanted it for some reason is an issue. The American electorate voted for Trump, that is reality, get over it

I am sure that if you checked with Russia they would thank you for implementing exactly what they wanted, chaos and lack of trust in the election process.
 
How is releasing official documents interference, looks like the Democrats created the problem their self but the bottom line is that Russia didn't change votes, Hillary did. This country interferes all over the world in elections but because the 2016 didn't turn out the way you wanted it for some reason is an issue. The American electorate voted for Trump, that is reality, get over it

I am sure that if you checked with Russia they would thank you for implementing exactly what they wanted, chaos and lack of trust in the election process.

Straw man argument. You are free to play with smoke and mirrors, but most patriotic Americans can see you are wrong.

Nice try. I'm confident most Americans can determine between you and I who is more supportive of our great nation and who is bordering on treason...if not a Russian agent.
 
Straw man argument. You are free to play with smoke and mirrors, but most patriotic Americans can see you are wrong.

Nice try. I'm confident most Americans can determine between you and I who is more supportive of our great nation and who is bordering on treason...if not a Russian agent.

First of all don't appreciate you calling anyone that actually served in the military and comes from a family that served at Pearl Harbor and Normandy unpatriotic simply because they don't agree with you. You people keep making things up to suit the real agenda which is far from being patriotic, total return to the nanny state and continued march to UHC and socialism.

It is you that is clueless and borders on liberal arrogance as you believe that the American people were too stupid to not vote for Hillary, when the reality is that most who did vote for Hillary met the definition of stupid. Tell us exactly how Russia benefits from having Trump in the WH as the results sure don't show it. Being a royal pain in the ass is what defines most radicals today. There is nothing that Trump has done that benefits Russia but everything you and the radical left is doing does. Seems you cannot accept that reality
 
And no, I'm not saying Pollack's book is worthless, I am saying it is myopic. Even myopic scholarly works are of use as they can sometimes give you more understanding of their narrow subject than a work that takes the opposing view.

If you have criticisms of Pollack's book I'm sure you can list them out here.

They didn't know that US GPS technology allowed them to traverse the desert.

You realize that the desert doesn't magically end at the Kuwaiti border right?

Because few people knew about it in 1991. GPS was a rather young technology, and had never been used to coordinate mass troop movements.

GPS had been around 1978. It was not that new of a technology.

Plus communications had been disrupted by that aerial bombardment AND because of the wrong assumption of a safe place, most of the tank teams were not in their tanks at the start of the engagement.

You are wildly contorting to try to explain why Iraqi forces failed to radio in their contact, but even so 23 minutes is more than long enough to radio in a contact and heading. There's no suitable explanation for why the Iraqis failed to do so other than they just weren't trained enough to do so, or simply weren't informed enough to know how important communication is on the battlefield.

I'm not arguing that Iraqis didn't make mistakes, quite the opposite, I am saying that the technology employed by the US forces allowed them to exploit the mistakes of the Iraq forces.

???

What American technology stopped the Brigade commander from informing his superiors?

You want to argue that the Iraqis broke quickly and surrendered, but can't admit that the reason they broke so quickly was because of the air power superiority that pounded them for weeks before the invasion and the clearly overmatched equipment they had to fight with.

They broke because they didn't want to fight, yes.

AND, it should be pointed out, the US air superiority was itself achieved through a huge technological gap, with many of the sorties to destroy Iraqi air defenses coming from stealth aircraft that the Iraqis couldn't properly track.

Interesting. So, when the Serbians stunted NATO's in 1999, why do you think that was?

but yeah, it was really just the discipline of US troops that caused the Iraqis to break, right?

No, and the fact that you think that's my argument just goes to show how badly you understand this whole debate.

Iraq lost because it was outgunned and outmatched. Part of that absolutely was the superiority of American technology (the Iraqis were also outnumbered, something like 700,000 to 350,000 IIRC), but in the end the reason the US crushed the Iraqis so badly was because the Iraqis were not skilled.

A lack of technology is not what forced Iraqi troops to remain in their positions, refusing to move or adjust fire. Poor technology did not force Iraqi artillery to never fire off of their pre-designated targets. Poor technology did not stop Iraqi tanks from moving, refusing to budge even as their flanks were overrun and their position was compromised and rendered irrelevant. By the Battle of Norfolk it should have been clear that Iraqi guns couldn't penetrate the Abrams, but did the Iraqis try to maneuver for a flank shot? The vast majority did not.

Now, I appreciate the personal anecdotes and sources, which is a step up from the usual debates I have about this, and were the Gulf War the only example of this I would be inclined to agree with you that the biggest problem with the Iraqis was their bad technology.

But it wasn't. In 1980-1982 the Iraqis were in the opposite positions; they were the heavily mechanized, heavily armed army facing an Iranian enemy that, on paper, was sorely weak. The Iranians barely had 200 tanks, hardly any artillery, and limited mechanization. The Iraqis should have crushed them, but they didn't. Instead the same thing in 1991 happened; Iraqi tanks sat in their positions while Iranian teams swarmed their position, Iraqi artillery did not adjust fire, and Iraqi air power was effectively useless because of their inability to hit anything accurately.

In 2003 the same thing happened, with entire formations falling apart after minimal engagement. At least in 1982 they faced Iranians who had been trained by American and Israeli officers, and in 1991 and 2003 they faced the US. In 2014 they faced rag tag militants of ISIS and were still routed.

Iraq's army simply put has never been a competent fighting force. It's weight of firepower and numbers mean nothing if your troops are so poorly trained they can't fight well; the same problem befell the Soviets in 1941 when their thousands of tanks and airplanes were rendered useless by no spare parts or ammunition, and staffed by conscripts with minimal training.
 
Trump says Russia supporting his reelection 'another misinformation campaign' - Reuters

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump on Friday said on Twitter that the idea that Russia wants him to win re-election was “another misinformation campaign” launched by Democrats.

Trump’s tweet followed media reports that intelligence officials warned U.S. lawmakers last week that Russia was interfering in the 2020 campaign to help Trump.
========================================================
Russia help Trump sew discord in the U.S.? Who would even think of such a thing.

Of course he denies that his pal Putin is trying to help him out, lol.
 
First of all don't appreciate you calling anyone that actually served in the military and comes from a family that served at Pearl Harbor and Normandy unpatriotic simply because they don't agree with you. You people keep making things up to suit the real agenda which is far from being patriotic, total return to the nanny state and continued march to UHC and socialism.

It is you that is clueless and borders on liberal arrogance as you believe that the American people were too stupid to not vote for Hillary, when the reality is that most who did vote for Hillary met the definition of stupid. Tell us exactly how Russia benefits from having Trump in the WH as the results sure don't show it. Being a royal pain in the ass is what defines most radicals today. There is nothing that Trump has done that benefits Russia but everything you and the radical left is doing does. Seems you cannot accept that reality

Like Trump; if it stands with the Russians against the United States, then it's a pro-Russian.
 
Trump makes this stuff up without reference to any facts. If it sounds good to him, he makes the claim. Nothing he says is factual.
 
Like Trump; if it stands with the Russians against the United States, then it's a pro-Russian.

When did Trump NOT put America first? your made up charges are nothing but typical left wing politics of personal destruction. The Trump results don't reconcile with your rhetoric
 
Trump is again right.....what this is is the Swamp fighting back against the builder who is trying to drain it.

You mean Trump is filling the swamp with his toadies that will look the other way at his corruption.
 
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