• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Trump expected to grant clemency to disgraced ex-Gov. Rod Blagojevich: reports

W_Heisenberg said:
Your logic sucks.

The pardon power is a tool, a legal tool given to the President.

It's like a baseball bat.

One can use a baseball bat to hit a baseball.

One can also use a baseball bat to hit a little old lady in the face who didn't deserve to get hit in the face.

A gun.

A gun is not evil in and of itself.

But a gun can be used to rob a bank.

So are you going to tell me that if someone robs a bank with a gun, that because a gun is neither moral nor immoral in and of itself, then the act of robbing a bank with a gun can never be immoral?
Click to expand...

Explain how Trumps use of the pardon power was immoral. Perhaps you can compare and contrast it to a moral use of the pardon power that I will go out on a limb and guess that you would ascribe to Obamas use of it.
 
The guy in the OP who Trump granted clemency to is a democrat who served 8 years and was about ready to get out.
 
swing_voter said:
The guy in the OP who Trump granted clemency to is a democrat who served 8 years and was about ready to get out.
Click to expand...
Blago is a piece of human garbage that should be sitting in prison until determined by the law. Not because his wife went on Fox News and showered Trump with compliments and praise stroking his ego.
 
Chomsky said:
Trump has already lost Illinois due to it's Blue demographics, so I suppose he figures he'll toss his base some red meat and further pave the way for his further pardons of his criminal buddies.
Click to expand...


Somehow I don’t think this will play in Peoria or Springfield.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
The pardon is merely an act of mercy from the state.
Click to expand...

In this instance, the pardon is not being used as "merely an act of mercy from the state."

Robbery and assault are crimes with victims.
Click to expand...

This is an offense against nobody.
Click to expand...

There are actions that offend or harm no particular person yet are deemed unlawful or immoral. One good example is an act of public corruption in which all citizens are harmed a little bit, not just one person.

Your tool comparison fails... not merely a physical object.
Click to expand...

A tool doesn't have to be a physical object. A tool can be an abstraction. Math is a tool. The written language is a tool. No one is going to say that math and language are not useful tools and do not perform tool-like functions just because of the fact they are tools in the abstract.

It is a power inherent with being the executive of the country
Click to expand...

Power can be abused.

Why do you think the Framers of the Constitution gave the President the pardon power?
 
Fletch said:
Explain how Trumps use of the pardon power was immoral. Perhaps you can compare and contrast it to a moral use of the pardon power that I will go out on a limb and guess that you would ascribe to Obamas use of it.
Click to expand...

Trump’s commutations today all have the same basic theme. Almost to a person, these moves involve corruption, something that Trump admires and embraces.

That’s the message here. Your child king is shaking his rattle.

So, tell us that you felt Rod Blogoyovich was unjustly convicted. One of the other Trumpsters here has. How about Bernie Kerik? The guy who got convicted of multiple counts of tax fraud, and who, with Crazy Rudy kept a secret pad for their girlfriends that was hidden in the World Trade Center police station. Or how about the $200 million Medicare fraud guy in Florida.

And I’m not even through the list yet.

This IS banana republic stuff.
 
bradt99 said:
The deep state was wrong in convicting the former Illinois governor. This is the right thing to do.
Click to expand...

Tell us all about it.

Be specific. Cite your sources.

We know you can’t.

All you Trumpsters can do is whine your empty little slogans.

Tell us Mr Trumpster, what is the “deep state”. Who runs it? Where is it hiding?

What, exactly is, a deep state. Or is it just a phrase Trump planted in your head, one repeated every day on AM right wing talk radio. Brayed like sheep.

I’ve been asking Trump supporters that question for three years.

Not one of you even tries to answer the question.

In fact, most of the time, Trump supporters run away when asked to define the deep state run away entirely.
 
Isn't it strange how the same people who decried Trump's impeachment as an attempt to undo an election are fine with Trump serially undoing a jury's decision?
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Trump has not violated any standards of morality while in office
Click to expand...

This is the stupidest thing I've ever seen anyone write on this forum.

his opposition believes murdering babies is morally acceptable.
Click to expand...

This has nothing whatsoever to do with Trump's commutation of Blagojevich's sentence.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with Trump's illegal, corrupt, and immoral behavior.

Insofar as the opposition to trump wants to seize people’s labor and property and murder babies, your claim to care about the morality of Trumps actions is self-serving non sense
Click to expand...

This has nothing whatsoever to do with Trump's commutation of Blagojevich's sentence.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with Trump's illegal, corrupt, and immoral behavior.

There is no moral principle precluding national leaders from issuing acts of clemency. You cannot show any objective principle that shows this to be true.
Click to expand...

Trump uniquely on that because every president has used the power, and... never was engaged in any criminal conspiracy with the person commuted. You cannot show how it is immoral Rod Blago serves 7 versus 14 years since the sentence is an arbitrary number
Click to expand...

I can prove you wrong by asking you two simple questions assuming you believe there is an independent, objective reality that exists apart from Trump's Twitter account and general state of mind:

1) Do you honestly believe that the commutation of Blagojevich's sentence was something that Blagojevich deserved?

2) Do you believe Trump did not have any ulterior motives when commutated Blagojevich's sentence?

Either you are arguing the power itself is wrong
Click to expand...

Power is just a tool. Power can be used to do good things. Power can be used to do bad things. This is true for government power temporarily given to government officials. It's the ABUSE of power by government officials that is wrong.

And, by the way, a government official who abuses government power is doing something wrong whether or not that person supports pro-life policies.

Government officials don't get a "corruption pass" just because they support the policies you favor. That's not how it works.

you can’t show its application in this case is wrong since Trump has unquestioned power to use it
Click to expand...

This is a terrible argument. This is the same type of asinine authoritarian argument Barr makes. The President is not a monarch. Presidents take oaths to the constitution. Presidents are representatives of the people and are entrusted with power to pursue the interests of the Republic as a whole.

The fact is a government official, including the President, can use official government power to do bad or improper things.

The fact that a government official, including the President, has the power to do something does not mean that every time the power is used it is good, proper, or legal.

Power is not an end. Power is a means to an end. Power is a tool. It's not some sort of unquestioned birthright. That's how thugs and punks and dictators think.
 
Last edited:
Anagram said:
14 years seems fine, and possibly lenient, for attempting to sell one of the most powerful positions in America and withholding funds from a children's hospital until getting a campaign contribution honestly.
Click to expand...

So what is the sentence for someone that attempted to stifle the honest pursuit of attaining one of the most powerful positions in America by withholding funds from a NATO ally until getting a campaign contribution of dirt on an opponent (thus attempting to stifle the honest election pursuit).....

14 years? Trump will die in prison. Perhaps Pres. Bloomberg will grant clemency.
 
upsideguy said:
So what is the sentence for someone that attempted to stifle the honest pursuit of attaining one of the most powerful positions in America by withholding funds from a NATO ally until getting a campaign contribution of dirt on an opponent (thus attempting to stifle the honest election pursuit).....

14 years? Trump will die in prison. Perhaps Pres. Bloomberg will grant clemency.
Click to expand...

Maybe someday we will find out, if anyone ever does that. At this point, just a left wing fantasy.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Lol, letting a gut out of prison after 7 years for a non violent non street offense while still being a convicted felon with all the legal disabilities attached is a miscarriage of justice?

That’s a new one to me.

Also the person you quoted is factually wrong, the purpose of pardons is not to prevent miscarriages of justice, it was so traitors could be given mercy and not hung even though they were guilty. That’s the traditional reason for the pardon power
Click to expand...

W_Heisenberg said:
In this instance, the pardon is not being used as "merely an act of mercy from the state."





There are actions that offend or harm no particular person yet are deemed unlawful or immoral. One good example is an act of public corruption in which all citizens are harmed a little bit, not just one person.



A tool doesn't have to be a physical object. A tool can be an abstraction. Math is a tool. The written language is a tool. No one is going to say that math and language are not useful tools and do not perform tool-like functions just because of the fact they are tools in the abstract.



Power can be abused.

Why do you think the Framers of the Constitution gave the President the pardon power?
Click to expand...

I can tell you exactly why they did, because Kings had Pardon power and traditionally pardon power was used to free traitors from death sentences as an act of the King’s mercy.

This in fact was the very first use of the Presidents pardon power was to pardon people who instigated a rebellion against the United States.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Lol, letting a gut out of prison after 7 years for a non violent non street offense while still being a convicted felon with all the legal disabilities attached is a miscarriage of justice?

That’s a new one to me.

Also the person you quoted is factually wrong, the purpose of pardons is not to prevent miscarriages of justice, it was so traitors could be given mercy and not hung even though they were guilty. That’s the traditional reason for the pardon power
Click to expand...

You can read Federalist #74 if you want. He's not wrong.

The Avalon Project : Federalist No 74
 
Fletch said:
Explain how Trumps use of the pardon power was immoral. Perhaps you can compare and contrast it to a moral use of the pardon power that I will go out on a limb and guess that you would ascribe to Obamas use of it.
Click to expand...

The argument was the pardon power is not immoral, therefore, it cannot ever be used immorally. That's frankly stupid.

And I've looked at Trump's pardons. Several of them appear well deserved. Good for Trump in those cases.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
I can tell you exactly why they did, because Kings had Pardon power and traditionally pardon power was used to free traitors from death sentences as an act of the King’s mercy.

This in fact was the very first use of the Presidents pardon power was to pardon people who instigated a rebellion against the United States.
Click to expand...

It was ONE of the 'traditional' uses of the pardon. The other was for its more common modern usage, which is to overturn what the King or President in this case deems to be an unjust conviction or sentence.
 
Manc Skipper said:
Isn't it strange how the same people who decried Trump's impeachment as an attempt to undo an election are fine with Trump serially undoing a jury's decision?
Click to expand...
He's not undoing a jury's decision.
 
year2late said:
Perhaps Trump is looking for new cabinet members....
Click to expand...

I'll bet each and every one of these guys are paying Trump for the favor. Michael Milken started the whole hedge fund business 30 years ago. That's right, hedge funds were all the brain child of Michael Milken. He's got billions to pay Trump off.
 
Fletch said:
Why is it 'reprehensible?' Oh thats right, its Trump :roll: You guys dont think any deeper than that.
Blago has served 7 years. Does the guy need to die in prison before you hateful libs are happy?
Click to expand...
Because the guy who convinced voters that he’ll drain the swamp, pardoned corrupt politicians, businessmen who cheated clients and charities. Trump granted clemency to tax cheats, Wall Street crooks, billionaire thieves and corrupt government officials.

If you think there is nothing wrong with that, you’re the problem.
 
MTAtech said:
Because the guy who convinced voters that he’ll drain the swamp, pardoned corrupt politicians, businessmen who cheated clients and charities. Trump granted clemency to tax cheats, Wall Street crooks, billionaire thieves and corrupt government officials.

If you think there is nothing wrong with that, you’re the problem.
Click to expand...
There are others who have not yet paid any debt at all to society.
Strzok Joins List of 25 Top FBI, DOJ Officials Who Have Been Recently Fired, Demoted, or Resigned
 
Fred C Dobbs II said:
There are others who have not yet paid any debt at all to society.
Strzok Joins List of 25 Top FBI, DOJ Officials Who Have Been Recently Fired, Demoted, or Resigned
Click to expand...

Can't your side ever defend Trump without an whataboutism? Strzok hasn't been charged with a crime by Trump's DOJ, so it's hardly equivalent to Trump allies convicted of serious crimes found guilty in court by a jury, being freed by a president who has no internal moral compass that might guide him.

Moreover, why can't your side EVER come clean and denounce indefensible actions by Trump? There is no justification for any of those people to be sprung from their crimes, which all were blatant.
 
PoS said:
I dunno. 14 years is a long time for some bribery thingy. Murderers and rapists got less.
Click to expand...
That is determined by the law. It should not be by a guy with a bad hair weave and addicted to Adderall. If his wife hadn’t gone on Fox news and kissed his ass, Blago would still be in prison. Every person that he commuted are million and billionaires convicted of stealing from charities and fraud. Sends a great message.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom