John Kelly says Vindman was right to report Trump's call with Zelensky

digitusmedius said:

"I need you to do us a favor, though."

And don't try that late-hour, hail-mary attempt of Your Dear Dirtbag to claim that "us" meant the United States. I realize your Cult destroys all sense of reason and honesty in its victims but that doesn't mean the rest of us have to humor you.

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a favor investigating corruption... there is NO way that proves personal intent on his part. you said Something COMPLETELY different from what he did in your original post, how about we admit that?

jmotivator said:

HAHAHA!! You must have missed the part where jpn said the CIA official that Vindman leaked to "blew the whistle". He must be in the cult too. :lamo



It did happen. Vindman said in his testimony that he leaked the complaint to his brother and someone that Schiff would not allow him to name. Is Vindman lying about doing that?



It actually happened. Either that or Vindman is lying about everything.

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The cult of trump and the gop senate support the bribery and extortion of foreign leaders and nations as long as trump’s election is in the best interests of the nation.

These same traitors will support ANYTHING trump does, including instituting Martial Law and cancelling elections.

We’re not approaching a banana republic; we’re there with Gestapo Barr.

digitusmedius said:

I don't know about oaths but he definitely sold his honor cheaply.

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We can agree to disagree on that point since I do not believe General Kelly sold his honor at all. Marine Corps General John Kelly is not Michael Flynn, who did sell his honor cheaply.

When GW Bush wanted to start a war with Iraq he had to go "General shopping" because many Generals knew it was a foolish move that would be paid for in American blood. When ordered, some Generals chose to resign. For others, it was an ethical dilemma: Do you abandon your troops to be led into battle with some idiot or do you do it yourself and try to minimize the damage to your troops?

I think General Kelly faced such a dilemma. There's no doubt General Kelly is smart enough to know Trump is a vainglorious buffoon so enamored with his own image he'd let thousands of Americans die just to feed his ego. When asked by this draft-dodging Coward-in-Chief to serve, General Kelly faced the same problem as those Generals under Bush: Do I serve and try to minimize the damage or do I refuse and just let things play out?

Personally, with this particular Coward-in-Chief, I think General Kelly made the right choice. I think, behind closed doors, he gave Trump his mind. So much so that Trump eventually fired him. The same goes for Marine Corps General Jim Mattis. In fact, it was when Trump fired General Mattis that his standing with enlisted service personnel, especially Marines who favored Trump the most, sank below 50%.

In short, I believe both Generals Kelly and Mattis did their best to serve our country and honor their oaths under one of the most despicable, dishonorably lying pieces of s*** to ever be elected President. I strongly believe they held onto their honor and did the best job they could.

ludin said:

YOu seem to be missing some key words in what Kelly said. he said he believes that vindman was telling the truth.
Morrison his direct boss says no he wasn't telling the truth and that he had 0 knowledge of it because morrison and a lot
of other of the staff cut vindman out of conversations because he couldn't be trusted.

he was undermining their efforst in the Ukraine to the point that they replaced him with someone else who was more knowledgeable than he was.
in fact they found out that vindman was actively working against them in the Ukraine.

So Kelly telling us what he believes is meaningless. People believe a lot of things are true. Doesn't mean that they are.

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LTC Vindman was detailed to the WH NSC from his assignment to the Office of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Army assigned Vindman to the Office of JCS in 2015 to become Russia adviser to the Chairman.

In 2018 Army detailed Vindman to the WH NSC. The LTC remained assigned to the Office of JCS. Now Vindman is back to his regular assignment to the Office of Joint Chiefs, the chairman, which is the same position Vindman had until 2018.

The present chairman JCS since last fall is Gen. Milley who until September was chief of staff of the Army that assigned Vindman to the Office JCS and then detailed Vindman to the WH. Yesterday Trump said of Vindman, "He's with Gen. Milley. He can have him." So methinks Trump doesn't like Gen. Milley either.

I'd say your post to another poster misses a lot in all of this to include Kelly and the just retired chairman of JCS the Marine Gen. Dunford being BFF since way back when and forever. I'd say Kelly is highly informed and familiar with Vindman and his time in the Pentagon and in the WH at the NSC. Chairman of JCS is a standing member of the National Security Council.

Indeed, chairman JCS is the principal adviser to the SecDef and the Potus on military matters, affairs, geostrategic issues et al. One thing we do know is that Trump really didn't like Gen. Dunford whom he removed from the NCS early in 2017 to replace him with Stephen Bannon which soon after was reversed and put right again with Dunford reinstalled on the NSC in the chairman's seat. Thanks in part to Gen. Kelly and also to Gen. Mattis who was of course SecDef at the time. Indeed Marines are tight if didn't you know.

Linc said:

The cult of trump and the gop senate support the bribery and extortion of foreign leaders and nations as long as trump’s election is in the best interests of the nation.

These same traitors will support ANYTHING trump does, including instituting Martial Law and cancelling elections.

We’re not approaching a banana republic; we’re there with Gestapo Barr.

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You certainly check all the CP boxes with your post... you make no workable arguments of salient points however.

Michael Cole said:

One point Kelly made was that illegal orders do not have to be obeyed, and he compared this to what Vindman did. It's an easy concept to comprehend, for most of us. The concept of putting your country before Trump is incomprehensible to Trumpists, because to them, Trump and the country are one and the same.

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Indeed and Making America Russia Instead.

The senate Republicans vote on the articles of impeachment tell us definitively that Trump has the kind of cooperative control over senate Republicans that Putin has over his Russian dupka that sits in Moscow.

The Republican Party has in fact become what we fought against throughout the 20th century.

So Kelly defends Vindman because we were trained not to obey illegal orders.

What illegal order was Vindman given? None.

#FakeNews

Tangmo said:

Indeed and Making America Russia Instead.

The senate Republicans vote on the articles of impeachment tell us definitively that Trump has the kind of cooperative control over senate Republicans that Putin has over his Russian dupka that sits in Moscow.

The Republican Party has in fact become what we fought against throughout the 20th century.

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You guys are all bark and no bite. Even with as low of an opinion I have of beta males, I still think that primally if they believed the nonsense they spewed theyd actually straighten up their backs and do something about it already.

This nonstop hissy fit is weak.

digitusmedius said:

It is actually a violation of the UCMJ to carry out an illegal order so it's not as if a subordinate can use the "I was just following orders" as a defense.

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Failure to recognize an illegal order is also a failure of the person who witnesses it or who is the recipient of it. Accepting an order one recognizes to be illegal is also illegal.

LTC Vindman in contrast recognized the extortion attempt immediately and completely. Vindman took the correct action 100% percent and immediately, is what Kelly is advising us of.

The Gen. retired Kelly has come forward publicly because he knows Vindman is a significant and historical reference point to the officer corps across the armed forces all of whom know well about this and to the armed services per se, presently and going forward indefinitely. Kelly is clearly placing himself on the side of that. Kelly is also suggesting to other retired Marine, Army, Navy and Air Force flag officers that they come forward too.

Aberration said:

You guys are all bark and no bite. Even with as low of an opinion I have of beta males, I still think that primally if they believed the nonsense they spewed theyd actually straighten up their backs and do something about it already.

This nonstop hissy fit is weak.

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Joint Chiefs put LTC Vindman in the WH after Vindman had been Russia adviser to the chairman JCS for two years.

The current chairman JCS Gen. Milley assigned Vindman to the Office of the JCS while he was chief of staff of the Army. CSA Milley also detailed Vindman to the WH NSC. Now Vindman is back with Milley again because Vindman continues to be assigned to the Office of the chairman JCS and Milley is chairman.

The Republican Party has become what we fought against throughout the 20th century. I am among those who advocate a second national reconstruction because of the large number of the population who have gone over to the other side where Putin is. So I too recognize the original reconstruction failed because it was soft in the head and weak of heart. That is, the Putin-Trump Rowers need to be defanged. I don't expect it will be pretty.

jmotivator said:

Well first, LOL, he said he didn't leak to the whistleblower... glad to see you at least know he is a liar on that count. Second, that isn't how clearances work. There are two stages to a clearance, there is the clearance itself, and then there is a need to know. "Need to Know" is granted by the process owner, and if you haven't been granted then it doesn't matter what your classification level is, you aren't seeing the information.

Vindman is not a process owner, nor is his superior, so he could not have authorized, nor could his boss authorize, a leak to someone outside the NSC.

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As someone who possessed a TS SCI clearance, you don't have to instruct me how clearances worked. My understanding is that the CIA employee was also either a member of the NSC or in any case working on Ukraine. As far as need to know being granted by the process owner, that applies to SCI cases, not all classified info at large. If it was, the "process owners" of Confidential-level information would do nothing but grant access, all day long, 24-hours a day to the thousand upon thousands of people who read that stuff. At HQ Eucom where I was a staff officer, we were knee-deep in Confidential documents, shin-deep in Secret, and only TS was really tightly controlled. But even TS wasn't strictly a read-in classification like SCI was.

jmotivator said:

Again, his testimony isn't why he was removed, his leaking of unauthorized information is.

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Lol. You really think that if Vindman hadn't testified against Lord Trump he would still have been removed. Not likely. If Vindman had stolen secrets and lied for Trump, he'd be given a Presidential Medal of Freedom.

jmotivator said:

From his boss, and clearly he didn't like the response he got to his complaint because he then took his complaint outside of the NSC complaint process by leaking it to unauthorized individuals.

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Right. You have no idea and you're making s**t up.

W_Heisenberg said:

John Kelly says Vindman was right to report Trump's call with Zelensky - CNNPolitics





I'm glad Kelly spoke up in support of Vindman. There has been a lot of false information and red herrings being thrown about concerning the fact that Vindman violated the chain of command. We have to remember that in the United States everyone who serves the government, including military personnel, takes an oath to the Constitution, not to the President.

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I didn't see this thread and started another, I asked a mod to delete it. But I'll bring my personal opinion over here.

Just to be clear, I appreciate the fact that General John Kelly was a respected Marine and performed his patriotic duty as a solder for this country and I thank him for that. Now I can say what I want about what I think of him as a man. John Kelly had plenty of opportunities to stand up for the rights of human beings during the caravans, did he? He was there, he was advisor to Trump and could have been a positive force if he wanted to be.

He didn't want to be obviously because once he departed as Chief of Staff he took a position on the board of Caliburn Corp which 'coincidentally' manages several of the detention centers for the US government as a sub-contractor. They're pulling in $750 per detainee, per day for their efforts.

I could care less what John Kelly has to say now about Vindman or anyone else for that matter. He shut his mouth and let Trump do whatever he felt like doing without saying a peep about any of it. The same goes for General Mattis. I had respect for him too at one time, respect for his service and the uniform he wore. But after he resigned, he -- just like John Bolton -- decided to keep the 'ugly' stuff quiet in preparation for book deals to profit of it.

So I just don't give a damn what John Kelly, James Mattis, H.R. McMaster or John Bolton has to say. In my book, they're nothing less than traitors to this country by remaining silent when they should have spoken up. They were there, they were witnesses and should have spoken out when it would have mattered, and it just doesn't matter anymore what they have to say.

digitusmedius said:

It is actually a violation of the UCMJ to carry out an illegal order so it's not as if a subordinate can use the "I was just following orders" as a defense.

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Failure to recognize an illegal order is also a punishable failure whether you carry it out or not. Indeed, an illegal order must be reported immediately. Failure to recognize one is encompassed in the failure to report one and to do it immediately. In other words the dummy defense is a fail. That includes a lot of Putin-Trump Rowers.

W_Heisenberg said:

John Kelly says Vindman was right to report Trump's call with Zelensky - CNNPolitics





I'm glad Kelly spoke up in support of Vindman. There has been a lot of false information and red herrings being thrown about concerning the fact that Vindman violated the chain of command. We have to remember that in the United States everyone who serves the government, including military personnel, takes an oath to the Constitution, not to the President.

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And this is just Kelly's opinion since he wasn't there and didn't hear any of it.

Tangmo said:

Failure to recognize an illegal order is also a failure of the person who witnesses it or who is the recipient of it. Accepting an order one recognizes to be illegal is also illegal.

LTC Vindman in contrast recognized the extortion attempt immediately and completely. Vindman took the correct action 100% percent and immediately, is what Kelly is advising us of.

The Gen. retired Kelly has come forward publicly because he knows Vindman is a significant and historical reference point to the officer corps across the armed forces all of whom know well about this and to the armed services per se, presently and going forward indefinitely. Kelly is clearly placing himself on the side of that. Kelly is also suggesting to other retired Marine, Army, Navy and Air Force flag officers that they come forward too.

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Wonder why the other 17 people who heard the call did nothing.

Paradoxical said:

Wonder why the other 17 people who heard the call did nothing.

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Because anyone could clearly guess how they would have been treated by the cult.
It takes incredible courage to do the right thing sometimes.

Paradoxical said:

Wonder why the other 17 people who heard the call did nothing.

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Well that's sad because you've been around long enough to know and use the old saying, one in a million.

It's the opposite of calling someone like Trump a piece of work.

LTC Vindman is the positive and rare, courageous and professional exception. Yet it's clear you wouldn't know. Don't know in fact. Refuse to know. That's because the Republican Party has become what we fought against throughout the 20th century. So it's past time to take it down.

W_Heisenberg said:

John Kelly says Vindman was right to report Trump's call with Zelensky - CNNPolitics





I'm glad Kelly spoke up in support of Vindman. There has been a lot of false information and red herrings being thrown about concerning the fact that Vindman violated the chain of command. We have to remember that in the United States everyone who serves the government, including military personnel, takes an oath to the Constitution, not to the President.

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Talk about shooting in the dark Kelly was long gone when this happened; this is nothing more than taking a shot at Trump. The Constitution, by the way says the President is his commander in chief.

Royal PITA said:

Tim Morrison was a political appointee who was LTC Vindman's "boss" for less than 3 months. He's a well known Trump ring-kisser. As should be clear to everyone: whomever doesn't kiss Trump's ring is fired or resigns. No doubt Morrison would say LTC Vindman was a Lizard Man from Mars if that's what Trump wanted him to say. Note also that LTC Vindman had two chains-of-command, the civilian and the military. In addition, since Watergate, there are procedures in place for reporting suspicions of crimes by government superiors. That's the system LTC Vindman used and why General Kelly supports his actions.


Your link about the WB and LTC Vindman is pure rumor-mongering trash: "While unconfirmed, it is possible that the official was Vindman, who still works with the whistleblower on U.S.-Ukraine policy." I can say with the same level of veracity that while "unconfirmed, it is possible" the Ring Trump wants all of his people to kiss has a hemorrhoid on it.

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Morrison's boss told Vindmann to bring information directly to him. Blaming him for not following the chain of command is pathetic.

Integrityrespec said:

And this is just Kelly's opinion since he wasn't there and didn't hear any of it.

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We know where you heard about it. :lamo

Bullseye said:

Talk about shooting in the dark Kelly was long gone when this happened; this is nothing more than taking a shot at Trump. The Constitution, by the way says the President is his commander in chief.

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Kelly's military officer's oath is to the Constitution and "We the People."

It is not to any individual of the government -- the government least of all in fact.

No one is above the Constitution that is the Law of the Land.

Aberration said:

So Kelly defends Vindman because we were trained not to obey illegal orders.

What illegal order was Vindman given? None.

#FakeNews

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What legal order was given him?

SCrider said:

Because anyone could clearly guess how they would have been treated by the cult.
It takes incredible courage to do the right thing sometimes.

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Yes, and being an activist leftist that hated Trump helps and colluding with Mark Zaid and the two recent members of Schivs staff that knew Ciaramelli. Now, that takes loads of courage

Oh, oh......don't forget he is/was a Colonel! I know this because he insisted in showing off by wearing his suit and demanding a senator call him "Colonel".

Oh yeah. Never forget military people don't lie at all. Especially those who din't like Trump. They are the most honest people in the world!!

It doesn't matter. The Republican base loves this Trump corruption and will support him all the way to the grave. They are way worse than Nixon supporters.

I wanna be at the pearly gates when these people try to get in.

Tangmo said:

Well that's sad because you've been around long enough to know and use the old saying, one in a million.

It's the opposite of calling someone like Trump a piece of work.

LTC Vindman is the positive and rare, courageous and professional exception. Yet it's clear you wouldn't know. Don't know in fact. Refuse to know. That's because the Republican Party has become what we fought against throughout the 20th century. So it's past time to take it down.

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Excuse me while I barf