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[W:751]Alexander Vindman to be ousted from National Security Council as early as Friday

Re: Alexander Vindman to be ousted from National Security Council as early as Friday

OpportunityCost said:
Look! A fallacy. Please come back when you have a valid argument.
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Is this the part where you admit you just made up what you "think" the process is for reporting concerns?
 
Re: Alexander Vindman to be ousted from National Security Council as early as Friday

Royal PITA said:
Background on the source of my opinions. No where did I call it a "psychological profile", but once again your tacit defense of Putin is noted.
No where do you acknowledge Putin is a tin-plated, murderous dictator. Why? Would that go against your ideology? Your personal beliefs? Your work rules? Why?

As for Trump, as I've pointed out before, he's motivated by avarice. Is there any doubt he'd sacrifice one of his own kids if faced with either doing so or going broke?

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There is no way he would sacrifice Ivanka. She is too precious!. Maybe Don JR or Eric.
 
Re: Alexander Vindman to be ousted from National Security Council as early as Friday

BlueTex said:
Is this the part where you admit you just made up what you "think" the process is for reporting concerns?
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Do you think any military person can ignore the chain of command, ever, and there will be no problem?
 
Re: Alexander Vindman to be ousted from National Security Council as early as Friday

OpportunityCost said:
Do you think any military person can ignore the chain of command, ever, and there will be no problem?
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He didn't ignore the chain of command and used the correct process for reporting the concern.
 
Re: Alexander Vindman to be ousted from National Security Council as early as Friday

Tangmo said:
Myself I'd keep the LTC and give him the Bronze Star with V.

He already got the Purple Heart and the Combat Infantry Badge and Ranger Tab.

This is while all Trump can show for his presidency is his belief in what Putin says. This is yet another of the ongoing battles between Trump who is the Pentagon suppressed and wannabe war criminal and the nation's most senior civilian and active duty military commanders and those recently retired. And going forward. We recall also former SecNavy Richard Spencer who was a USMC officer went to the wall to defend the UCMJ against the CinC who pardoned American war criminals.






And it is remarkably unusual and exceptional for USMC Gen. "Silent Joe" Dunford who retired in September to make any public statement on any issue of civil-military controversy so it's clear that the nation's most senior armed forces commanders support LTC Vindman because they know his actions are professional, patriotic, consistent with his oath and the Constitution. Indeed, Vindman was Dunford's adviser on Russia from 2015 to mid 2018 when Dunford detailed the LTC to the WH NSC. So it's obvious the top command of the military across the board support Vindman v Trump to include retired generals and admirals.
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Seems like a standard response from the military. The military does not want to get into partisan politics.

It sounds to me that Vindman offered opinions that he wasn't qualified to give. His direct supervisor mentioned that "he didn't have the political antennae to deal with something that was straying into domestic politics.” There is no doubt that Vindman disagreed with the Presidents policies. It appears that he has never been a fan of the President. Why would the President keep him on?
 
Re: Alexander Vindman to be ousted from National Security Council as early as Friday

Chomsky said:
Source: (Washinton Examiner) Alexander Vindman to be ousted from National Security Council as early as Friday

Apparently the White House will be "house cleaning" and "down sizing" our National Security Council. Could this be an act of retribution? A warning to others? Could it cause us to be at risk? Could Trump be doing this to allow himself to act nefariously? With impunity? Or, is this business as usual?

Are there legitimate questions raised, here?
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It is ridiculous to think that a president should have people working under him that work against him. It's called the deep state.
 
Re: Alexander Vindman to be ousted from National Security Council as early as Friday

Mongidig said:
There is no way he would sacrifice Ivanka. She is too precious!. Maybe Don JR or Eric.
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Agreed. IMO, it'd be Eric. Right now Junior has his nose so far up daddy's ass it'd be a lot of work to get him out. It wouldn't be Barron because Melania would cut off his mushroom dick and feed it to the seagulls.
 
Re: Alexander Vindman to be ousted from National Security Council as early as Friday

Moderate Right said:
It is ridiculous to think that a president should have people working under him that work against him. It's called the deep state.
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It is even more ridiculous to have a President complain about a "deep state" and make promises to "drain the swamp" yet maintain more prior administration appointees than any other President since Truman. Even Bush41 and LBJ replaced more prior administration appointees than Trump has, and they had friendly prior administrations.
 
Re: Alexander Vindman to be ousted from National Security Council as early as Friday

Moderate Right said:
It is ridiculous to think that a president should have people working under him that work against him. It's called the deep state.
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Worse for Trump is to have people working for him that honor their oaths, that firmly believe in the Constitution and who will not lie in court.
 
Re: Alexander Vindman to be ousted from National Security Council as early as Friday

Bullseye said:
Tangmo said:
The same Military Times Pentagon approved survey showed Trump's disapproval by active duty troops on the cusp of Obama's latest reflective negatives as of December last year.

There's a lot of Red in both boxes at this point as Trump continues to move into Obama disapproval territory. By November Trump may well be dead even with OB in disapproval by active duty forces across the board -- or to surpass OB.



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As to your post I'd simply reiterate that -- as any officer or senior NCO will attest -- without the UCMJ that Trump is deconstructing the armed forces lose their discipline, good order and worse their effectiveness. We know the reality of military forces from ancient times to the present and beyond is that we either have a rabble or we have a disciplined armed force that is in a continuous state of good order and mutual respect among all ranks. UCMJ v Trump is in fact the Pentagon's bottom line and it's clear to me Trump knows this, which is why he's fundamentally finished with LTC Vindman and the twin brother LTC who's a lawyer.

Trump's Troopers of the Right are doing overkill trying to trash the LTC because Trump is not going to smack the hornet's nest at the Pentagon over the UCMJ and Vindman who is assigned to the Office of the chairman JCS. As far as we know no one at WH wants to grab their butter knives and head out to the OK Corral on this one.
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Military don't have to like the Commander In Chief - the just have to follow his orders.
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Correct. Most military personnel had no respect for Clinton, but they followed orders into Bosnia and Haiti. Likewise, they didn't/don't respect Obama or Trump, but they will do their duty.

Just so we're clear; our military personnel are trained to only follow lawful orders. They know the consequences of lying under oath, being told to cover up a crime or to go against the Constitution of the United States.
 
Re: Alexander Vindman to be ousted from National Security Council as early as Friday

Mongidig said:
There is no way he would sacrifice Ivanka. She is too precious!. Maybe Don JR or Eric.
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Leftists are easily subject to aniL American propaganda and always keen to flaunt it..No wonder they tend to be strong admirers of Vlad Putin.
 
Re: Alexander Vindman to be ousted from National Security Council as early as Friday

Glitch said:
It is even more ridiculous to have a President complain about a "deep state" and make promises to "drain the swamp" yet maintain more prior administration appointees than any other President since Truman. Even Bush41 and LBJ replaced more prior administration appointees than Trump has, and they had friendly prior administrations.
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There is a difference between the deep state and the swamp. The deep state works against you to thwart what you want to do. The swamp is just the swamp. Unfortunately, there is no one available to replace swamp members other than other swamp members. But, at least you can have swamp members who don't work against you.
 
Re: Alexander Vindman to be ousted from National Security Council as early as Friday

Glitch said:
It is even more ridiculous to have a President complain about a "deep state" and make promises to "drain the swamp" yet maintain more prior administration appointees than any other President since Truman. Even Bush41 and LBJ replaced more prior administration appointees than Trump has, and they had friendly prior administrations.
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Both Bush41 and LBJ understood the political factions against them because they had more experience in DC.

Donald Trump naively believed that although the people he inherited were Democrat thought they were all Americans first and would put country before politics. He has since learned different.
 
Re: Alexander Vindman to be ousted from National Security Council as early as Friday

Royal PITA said:
Worse for Trump is to have people working for him that honor their oaths, that firmly believe in the Constitution and who will not lie in court.
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No president should have people working under them that want to purposely thwart their president's agenda.
 
Re: Alexander Vindman to be ousted from National Security Council as early as Friday

Moderate Right said:
It is ridiculous to think that a president should have people working under him that work against him. It's called the deep state.
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The Deep State is a right wing myth. It’s the kind of fairy tale that charlatans tell losers to explain why nothing they say counts. It absolves the con man from any responsibility for the outcome, as the losers aren’t smart enough to hold the guy who told you “I alone can “fix it””, responsible for doing nothing other than making noise.
 
Re: Alexander Vindman to be ousted from National Security Council as early as Friday

Moderate Right said:
It is ridiculous to think that a president should have people working under him that work against him. It's called the deep state.
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By working against him you mean testifying truthfully under oath when issued a lawful subpoena. The blobfather has a right to a government full of loyal goons as inept as their chosen one.


I'd say think about what you're saying, but prior evidence of such a feat is not in evidence. So: You're saying that the president has an absolute right to have an entire executive branch that is accountable only to the president and who shall not follow any law except what the president says.
 
Re: Alexander Vindman to be ousted from National Security Council as early as Friday

Chomsky said:
Source: (Washinton Examiner) Alexander Vindman to be ousted from National Security Council as early as Friday

Apparently the White House will be "house cleaning" and "down sizing" our National Security Council. Could this be an act of retribution? A warning to others? Could it cause us to be at risk? Could Trump be doing this to allow himself to act nefariously? With impunity? Or, is this business as usual?

Are there legitimate questions raised, here?
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It seems like business as usual to me. Everyone who was good at their jobs bailed or was fired some time ago. Now Trump is dumping the last couple of people with any integrity. Vindman had the nerve to tell the truth, so Trump stomped his baby feet and pink slipped him. I'm not at all surprised.
 
Re: Alexander Vindman to be ousted from National Security Council as early as Friday

TomFitz said:
The Deep State is a right wing myth. It’s the kind of fairy tale that charlatans tell losers to explain why nothing they say counts. It absolves the con man from any responsibility for the outcome, as the losers aren’t smart enough to hold the guy who told you “I alone can “fix it””, responsible for doing nothing other than making noise.
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LOL. Anyone from within that worked in the previous administration who works against their new administration is part of the deep state. Obama had 8 years to create his deep state, which came with insurance policies in case Trump beat Hillary. And now you guys are coming to realize that Trump is now putting in his own deep state such as Barr, and several others. You guys are crying like whiny babies about Trump's deep state but you have to be careful not to actually call it the deep state because then you have to admit that there is such a thing as a deep state. It's all similar to Hillary calling out Trump during the campaign for not saying he would accept election results if he lost and then her and the left turning right around and not accepting the election results after she lost. Hell, Hillary couldn't even demand recounts in states so Jill Stein had to do it for her. They should have never allowed that since Jill Stein had no chance of winning. They should have made Hillary demand the recount to show her utter and complete hypocrisy.
 
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Re: Alexander Vindman to be ousted from National Security Council as early as Friday

Moderate Right said:
No president should have people working under them that want to purposely thwart their president's agenda.
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Correct. OTOH, no President should be ordering his people to violate the law, lie under oath, commit crimes such as perjury and/or treason, act in any way contrary to their oaths of office..
 
Re: Alexander Vindman to be ousted from National Security Council as early as Friday

Mithros said:
By working against him you mean testifying truthfully under oath when issued a lawful subpoena. The blobfather has a right to a government full of loyal goons as inept as their chosen one.


I'd say think about what you're saying, but prior evidence of such a feat is not in evidence. So: You're saying that the president has an absolute right to have an entire executive branch that is accountable only to the president and who shall not follow any law except what the president says.
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No, they were working against him, testifying to their presumptions and trying to form their own foreign policy, contrary to their boss's.
 
Re: Alexander Vindman to be ousted from National Security Council as early as Friday

Royal PITA said:
Correct. OTOH, no President should be ordering his people to violate the law, lie under oath, commit crimes such as perjury and/or treason, act in any way contrary to their oaths of office..
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LOL. You mean like Obama/Holder? You mean like using a foreign government spy's dossier to take down a political opponent and have an insurance policy just in case Trump won?
 
Re: Alexander Vindman to be ousted from National Security Council as early as Friday

TomFitz said:
The Deep State is a right wing myth. It’s the kind of fairy tale that charlatans tell losers to explain why nothing they say counts. It absolves the con man from any responsibility for the outcome, as the losers aren’t smart enough to hold the guy who told you “I alone can “fix it””, responsible for doing nothing other than making noise.
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Andrew McCabe Admits Top NatSec Officials Plotted Coup Against Trump
 
Re: Alexander Vindman to be ousted from National Security Council as early as Friday

joko104 said:
The ONLY personal knowledge Vindman had was listening in on the phone call. However, since they had a transcript that testimony wasn't even necessary. Everything else was "his concerns," "his speculation" and what he heard other people's concerns were - ie gossip. He is NOT a policy maker and the trial wasn't about policy.

The ONLY actual admissible testimony Vindman gave that would have been allowed under the rules of evidence was what he heard in the telephone call. That was pointless testimony since it wasn't even disputed as the President VOLUNTARILY turned over the transcript (although the Democrats like Schiff continue to lie claiming the President refused to turn over anything. President Trump turned over the only relevant evidence at the very start.) Everything else of any relevance was just hearsay, gossip and Vindman pretending HE is a policy maker saying how he didn't like how Trump handled the matter with Ukraine.
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I thought what Morrison, Vindman's supervisor, had to say was illuminating:

First, I just want to be clear that Alex is a patriot who has literally bled for this country.

But, in my experience in government, not everybody is cut out for the policy process. You often find with--and these people are on the NSC. You often find with CIA analysts who get detailed that they can't get out of the analytical role into developing policy. State Department personnel who get promoted based on their proficiency in writing reporting cables can't get out of that role into making policy.

So not everybody is cut out for the policymaking process, and Alex, I think, was in that category.
Page 194, https://apps.npr.org/documents/document.html?id=6551201-Morrison-Final-Version
 
Re: Alexander Vindman to be ousted from National Security Council as early as Friday

Chomsky said:
I'm not aware. Do you have documentation supporting this assertion?
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Re: Alexander Vindman to be ousted from National Security Council as early as Friday

nota bene said:
I thought what Morrison, Vindman's supervisor, had to say was illuminating:

First, I just want to be clear that Alex is a patriot who has literally bled for this country.

But, in my experience in government, not everybody is cut out for the policy process. You often find with--and these people are on the NSC. You often find with CIA analysts who get detailed that they can't get out of the analytical role into developing policy. State Department personnel who get promoted based on their proficiency in writing reporting cables can't get out of that role into making policy.

So not everybody is cut out for the policymaking process, and Alex, I think, was in that category.
Page 194, https://apps.npr.org/documents/document.html?id=6551201-Morrison-Final-Version
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Was this the reason that Lt. Col. Yevgeny Vindman was fired from his job at National Security Council?

Yevgeny had no role in any of the impeachment.
 
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