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[W:89] President Trump unveils Middle East peace plan with Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu

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RabidAlpaca

RabidAlpaca

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President Donald Trump is expected to unveil the administration's long-awaited Middle East peace plan on Tuesday with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu by his side.

The plan proposes new borders for Israel, allowing the annexation of some Palestinian territories, according to various reports.
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This just in, two corrupt leaders under investigation by their own people and universally hated in the middle east offer a new middle east "peace plan" they consulted no one on that involves Israel annexing more of Palestine.

Should we go ahead and roll out the ol' "Mission Accomplished" banner?
 
RabidAlpaca said:
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This just in, two corrupt leaders under investigation by their own people and universally hated in the middle east offer a new middle east "peace plan" they consulted no one on that involves Israel annexing more of Palestine.

Should we go ahead and roll out the ol' "Mission Accomplished" banner?
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First, I wish they would not call it a "Peace Plan." This is a "Support of an Ally Versus Their Enemy" Plan. There will be no peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians until the Palestinians cease to be led by antisemitic terrorist organizations that sought and still seek the destruction of the state of Israel.

Second, regardless of whether or not the present leaders of the United States or Israel are personally corrupt, the interests of our ally Israel remain unchanged: It makes no sense for Israel to give up real land for illusory peace with the Palestinian leadership that does not want peace with Israel.

I am personally for this. When the Palestinian leadership abandons their antisemitic goals, we can discuss a two-state solution. Not one second before.
 
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RabidAlpaca said:
Link



This just in, two corrupt leaders under investigation by their own people and universally hated in the middle east offer a new middle east "peace plan" they consulted no one on that involves Israel annexing more of Palestine.

Should we go ahead and roll out the ol' "Mission Accomplished" banner?
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What is your Mideast Peace Plan?
 
I support Trump's push for a two state solution, but will reserve judgment on this particular plan until the details are out.
 
Felis Leo said:
First, I wish they would not call it a "Peace Plan." This is a "Support of an Ally Versus Their Enemy" Plan. There will be no peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians until the Palestinians cease to be led by antisemitic terrorist organizations that sought and still seek the destruction of the state of Israel.

Second, regardless of whether or not the present leaders of the United States or Israel are personally corrupt, the interests of our ally Israel remain unchanged: It makes no sense for Israel to give up real land for illusory peace with the Palestinian leadership that does not want peace with Israel.

I am personally for this. When the Palestinian leadership abandons their antisemitic goals, we can discuss a two-state solution. Not one second before.
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It is equally unrealistic to expect the Palestinian leadership to change their tactics or rhetoric given the ongoing campaign of Israeli expansion and settlement at the expense of Palestinian Christian and Muslim communities that have been living there for centuries. Americans may prefer to pretend that there is only one side to this story, but that is so far from the case as to be laughable.
 
Irredentist said:
It is equally unrealistic to expect the Palestinian leadership to change their tactics or rhetoric given the ongoing campaign of Israeli expansion and settlement at the expense of Palestinian Christian and Muslim communities that have been living there for centuries. Americans may prefer to pretend that there is only one side to this story, but that is so far from the case as to be laughable.
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I certainly do not expect the Palestinian leadership to seek peace with a country they have been inculcated to believe are lead by a vile alien people who stole their land, Irredentist. Just like I would not expect true-believing dyed-in-the-wool Nazis or Fascists to tolerate the presence of Jews or non-white people either in their midst or on their borders. But I would not seek to try and mediate a peace between the parties either, because one side's leadership has declared without reservation that it does not want a permanent peace.

You cannot negotiate a peace without both sides wanting a peace.
 
Felis Leo said:
I certainly do not expect the Palestinian leadership to seek peace with a country they have been inculcated to believe are lead by a vile alien people who stole their land. Just like I would not expect dyed-in-the-wool Nazis or Fascists to tolerate the presence of Jews or non-white people either in their midst or on their borders. But I would not seek to try and mediate a peace between the parties either, because one side's leadership has declared without reservation that it does not want a permanent peace.

You cannot negotiate a peace without both sides wanting a peace.
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It's not just Palestinian leadership that needs to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist. Israel needs to acknowledge the right of Palestine to exist. And to do that, they need to stop their expansion. I see no evidence that that is occuring. Both parties are to blame.
 
Irredentist said:
It's not just Palestinian leadership that needs to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist. Israel needs to acknowledge the right of Palestine to exist. And to do that, they need to stop their expansion. I see no evidence that that is occuring. Both parties are to blame.
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Israel has made such acknowledgments in the past, and offered territorial concessions that were rebuffed on the flimsiest of pretexts. If both parties are to blame, it is not a 50/50 split. And even if it were, I see no reason for either Israel or the United States to back the creation of a Palestinian state.

After all, what is a Palestinian State going to realistically look like? Will it be a pluralistic law-governed democracy like Israel? Highly doubtful. Or will it be another corrupt autocracy, led by either an Arab-nationalist Fascist party like Egypt or Syria? Or perhaps an Islamist semi-theocracy like Iran? Or perhaps a mix of the two like Lebanon? Knowing the quality of leaders that the Palestinians have ruling over them and how corrupt they are and how greedily and violently they cling to power, what is the sales pitch for a Palestinian state, Irredentist? What is the sales pitch for the creation of another, at best, violent corrupt Middle Eastern kleptocracy if not an outright militant theocratic or fascistic regime on an ally's border?
 
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Felis Leo said:
Israel has made such acknowledgments in the past, and offered territorial concessions that were rebuffed on the flimsiest of pretexts. If both parties are to blame, it is not a 50/50 split. And even if it were, I see no reason for either Israel or the United States to back the creation of a Palestinian state.

After all, what is a Palestinian State going to realistically look like? Will it be a pluralistic law-governed democracy like Israel? Highly doubtful. Or will it be another corrupt autocracy, led by either an Arab-nationalist Fascist party like Egypt or Syria? Or perhaps an Islamist semi-theocracy like Iran? Or perhaps a mix of the two like Lebanon? Knowing the quality of leaders that the Palestinians have ruling over them and how corrupt they are and how greedily and violently they cling to power, what is the sales pitch for a Palestinian state, Irredentist? What is the sales pitch for the creation of another, at best, violent corrupt Middle Eastern kleptocracy if not an outright militant theocratic or fascistic regime on an ally's border?
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I don't know what a Palestinian state would look like, how about we let the people who live there decide for themselves how they should be governed? Or are they only entitled to self determination with our consent? It amuses me that you speak of the corruption of Palestine, while the Israeli leader himself stands indicted for corruption. Or are greed and corruption acceptable for Israelis, but not for Palestinians?
 
so give Palestine a tiny bit of land with Israel overseeing all the security?

Inspiring stuff, must have taken them all morning to has this out.
 
Felis Leo said:
First, I wish they would not call it a "Peace Plan." This is a "Support of an Ally Versus Their Enemy" Plan. There will be no peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians until the Palestinians cease to be led by antisemitic terrorist organizations that sought and still seek the destruction of the state of Israel.

Second, regardless of whether or not the present leaders of the United States or Israel are personally corrupt, the interests of our ally Israel remain unchanged: It makes no sense for Israel to give up real land for illusory peace with the Palestinian leadership that does not want peace with Israel.

I am personally for this. When the Palestinian leadership abandons their antisemitic goals, we can discuss a two-state solution. Not one second before.
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Likewise it makes no sense for the Palestinians to negotiate with an anti-Semitic (Palestinians are Semites too) government in Israel that seeks to ethnically cleanse them and who are engaging in an active campaign to illegally steal their land and resources.
 
Irredentist said:
I don't know what a Palestinian state would look like, how about we let the people who live there decide for themselves how they should be governed? Or are they only entitled to self determination with our consent?
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I am saying that neither you nor anyone else has supplied me with a good reason to back the creation of a Palestinian state at the expense of an ally, or to ignore the quality of leadership that they presently have. I see no reason to back the creation of another corrupt, kleptocratic fascist state or theocracy in the Middle East.

Irredentist said:
It amuses me that you speak of the corruption of Palestine, while the Israeli leader himself stands indicted for corruption. Or are greed and corruption acceptable for Israelis, but not for Palestinians?
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Indeed. Netanyahu is up on corruption charges, which is wonderful, because in Israel they actually punish corruption and if a court finds even a much-beloved public official guilty, they go to jail. In other Middle Eastern countries, including Palestinian territories, if you mention that a much-beloved public official corrupt, it is you who go to jail. If you are lucky.
 
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Obscurity said:
I support Trump's push for a two state solution, but will reserve judgment on this particular plan until the details are out.
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It isn’t a two state solution. It’s a single state solution with an oppressed people getting token symbolic independence that is entirely dependent on the whims of their oppressors.
 
Questerr said:
It isn’t a two state solution. It’s a single state solution with an oppressed people getting token symbolic independence that is entirely dependent on the whims of their oppressors.
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It could be. Let's see what the plan says, shall we?
 
Felis Leo said:
I am saying that neither you nor anyone else has supplied me with a good reason to back the creation of a Palestinian state at the expense of an ally, or to ignore the quality of leadership that they presently have. I see no reason to back the creation of another corrupt, kleptocratic fascist state or theocracy in the Middle East.



Indeed. Netanyahu is up on corruption charges, which is wonderful, because in Israel they actually punish corruption and if a court finds even a much-beloved public official guilty, they go to jail. In other Middle Eastern countries, if you mention that a much-beloved public official corrupt, it is you who go to jail. If you are lucky.
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Right, you see no reason to back the creation of a state for the Palestinians unless it conforms to parameters you deem acceptable. Ergo, the Palestinian people have no right to a nation without our consent, is that your position?
 
Obscurity said:
It could be. Let's see what the plan says, shall we?
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They released the pertinent details already. Israel gets to keep all of their illegally stolen land, gets to continue their campaign of stealing more land for “settlements”, gets to keep all of Jerusalem, and gets full security control over all of the West Bank (meaning the Palestinians aren’t allowed to ever have any kind of a defense force).

In exchange, the Palestinians get symbolically recognized as a state and the chance to have a capital building in Israeli-owned Jerusalem (a token gesture that means nothing) but first they have to meekly submit to Israel’s campaign of ethnic cleansing for 3 years without any resistance, state organized or otherwise.
 
Irredentist said:
Right, you see no reason to back the creation of a state for the Palestinians unless it conforms to parameters you deem acceptable.
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You seem to be trying to make it sound that not approving of the real possibility that a new autocracy springing up in the Middle East hostile to us and our allies is somehow unjust or unreasonable. How is that unreasonable?

Irredentist said:
Ergo, the Palestinian people have no right to a nation without our consent, is that your position?
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If our nation's "consent" is needed, why should we give it?
 
Questerr said:
They released the pertinent details already. Israel gets to keep all of their illegally stolen land, gets to continue their campaign of stealing more land for “settlements”, gets to keep all of Jerusalem, and gets full security control over all of the West Bank (meaning the Palestinians aren’t allowed to ever have any kind of a defense force).

In exchange, the Palestinians get symbolically recognized as a state and the chance to have a capital building in Israeli-owned Jerusalem (a token gesture that means nothing) but first they have to meekly submit to Israel’s campaign of ethnic cleansing for 3 years without any resistance, state organized or otherwise.
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If that is the proposal, then it's DOA and justifiably so. All this is is grandstanding for Bibi, the criminal.

Seems the right wing has some issues with legality of late. How unsurprising!
 
Questerr said:
They released the pertinent details already. Israel gets to keep all of their illegally stolen land, gets to continue their campaign of stealing more land for “settlements”, gets to keep all of Jerusalem, and gets full security control over all of the West Bank (meaning the Palestinians aren’t allowed to ever have any kind of a defense force).

In exchange, the Palestinians get symbolically recognized as a state and the chance to have a capital building in Israeli-owned Jerusalem (a token gesture that means nothing) but first they have to meekly submit to Israel’s campaign of ethnic cleansing for 3 years without any resistance, state organized or otherwise.
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You don't seem to know what ethnic cleasning is yet you appear very willing on using the term.
 
Apocalypse said:
You don't seem to know what ethnic cleasning is yet you appear very willing on using the term.
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The Israeli settlement program in the West Bank meets the definition of ethnic cleansing as defined by both the UN and US State Department.
 
Felis Leo said:
You seem to be trying to make it sound that not approving of the real possibility that a new autocracy springing up in the Middle East hostile to us and our allies is somehow unjust or unreasonable. How is that unreasonable?

If our nation's "consent" is needed, why should we give it?
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The Palestinians have every authority to choose their leadership; the sole reason an insurgent jihadist regime is in there, is in direct opposition to the arsonist, imperialist Israelis, who have, under Bibi, enacted a genocidal apartheid.

I look forward to you supporting President Sanders withholding -all- apportioned funding to Israel on condition they stop their inhumane practices, revert immediately to their UN approved borders, and immediately cease and desist their illegal occupation.
 
Apocalypse said:
You don't seem to know what ethnic cleasning is yet you appear very willing on using the term.
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Oh, look who's here.

Go read what ethnic cleansing means.

Israel is an apartheid state. Bibi is a criminal. Your government is a rogue theocratic bastardization and a criminal empire.

It needs to immediately stop its illegal occupation and oppression.
 
Questerr said:
The Israeli settlement program in the West Bank meets the definition of ethnic cleansing as defined by both the UN and US State Department.
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No, no it's not. You're literally making things up at this point.
 
Sounds like a bunch of stuff the Palestinians will never agree to.
 
Obscurity said:
Oh, look who's here.

Go read what ethnic cleansing means.

Israel is an apartheid state. Bibi is a criminal. Your government is a rogue theocratic bastardization and a criminal empire.

It needs to immediately stop its illegal occupation and oppression.
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Your posiiton comes from someone who thinks Jews have no right to breath the same air that you do and thus I don't find it relevant.
 
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