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Thread: Trump lawyer says a president cannot be impeached for abusing his power

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    Re: Trump lawyer says a president cannot be impeached for abusing his power

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    Anything's impeachable, if the People say it's so! If they say something's a "high crime", then it is.
    The House must believe it is an actionable offense. The House has the Power.

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    Re: Trump lawyer says a president cannot be impeached for abusing his power

    Quote Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
    Alan Dershowitz has been a Trump sycophant all along. His argument that a president cannot be impeached for abusing his power is absurd -- arguing that a president can only be impeached for violating an actual statute, which weren't written at the time. After hearing him say that on TV I checked Federalist 65, where the Founders debated this. This is paragraph two:
    “The Federalist Papers are a series of 85 essays arguing in support of the United States Constitution.” - from the web

    What weight do these papers carry as to the Constitution and law?
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    Re: Trump lawyer says a president cannot be impeached for abusing his power

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    Dershowitz's claim isn't exactly that a president can't be impeached for abuse of power. His claim is that the abuse has to be tied to some other crime which harms the interests of the nation in some substantial way. For example, Bill Clinton abused his power by asking Betty Currie to hide evidence of his affair with Lewinsky and to lie about the facts and circumstances of the affair. He was let off the hook because, in the Senate, it was decided that while he did commit certain crimes those crimes did not substantially harm the nation or the ability of government to function in the interests of the nation.
    Well, part of what got Clinton off was that he admitted to the nation that he had been deceptive and offered an explination that his actions had more to do with protecting his family, and that his actions were still wrong, and he asked the nation for forgiveness. That had a major impact in his aquittal. It's something we all know Trump will never do.

    Further, using hundreds of millions of tax payer money and other government services to orchestrate a political scheme is the HEIGHT of abuse of power, and clearly qualifies as public corruption in criminal proceedings. It is highly illegal to do what Trump did. We've buried mayors, city counsel members, and governors for far less, with far less.

    Also, withholding the WB compliant was itself illegal, as was telling government agencies and employees to ignore subpoenas from congressional committees without a claim of executive privilege - which is contempt of Congress, and is a crime.

    If the Democrats could actually prove that Trump was using his position with Zelensky for the express purpose of manipulating the 2020 election they might have a case but so far everything that has come out in that regard is purely speculative.
    All of the witnesses the testified before the House stated they saw Trump's interests as entirely political, including those hand picked diplomats appointed by Trump.

    The whole point of Trump's scheme was to get Ukraine to make public commitments to investigations, giving the American people the impression the Ukraine was doing this independently, while concealing in private that it was Trump that was the puppeteer the entire time.

    We all know Trump had a political interest in this and has been obsessed with getting his enemies under public clouds of investigation. This playing stupid **** got old a long time ago.

    Where verifiable facts have been presented they have all been with regard to the 2016 election where we have hard evidence that Democrats used foreign sources to assist Clinton.

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    Re: Trump lawyer says a president cannot be impeached for abusing his power

    Quote Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
    Alan Dershowitz has been a Trump sycophant all along. His argument that a president cannot be impeached for abusing his power is absurd -- arguing that a president can only be impeached for violating an actual statute, which weren't written at the time. After hearing him say that on TV I checked Federalist 65, where the Founders debated this. This is paragraph two:
    The rest of the passage quoted ought to be thought about as well. It indicates that an impeachment will flare the passions of society and that decisions will be rendered as a result of power and not guilt or innocence.

    For that reason, impeachment should be reserved to injuries done to society.

    Considering, again, that the aid was released and no investigation required, it would seem that no injury to society was caused.

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    Re: Trump lawyer says a president cannot be impeached for abusing his power

    Quote Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
    The House must believe it is an actionable offense. The House has the Power.
    Yes, because People = House.
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    Re: Trump lawyer says a president cannot be impeached for abusing his power

    Quote Originally Posted by MovingPictures View Post
    Well, part of what got Clinton off was that he admitted to the nation that he had been deceptive and offered an explination that his actions had more to do with protecting his family, and that his actions were still wrong, and he asked the nation for forgiveness. That had a major impact in his aquittal. It's something we all know Trump will never do.

    Further, using hundreds of millions of tax payer money and other government services to orchestrate a political scheme is the HEIGHT of abuse of power, and clearly qualifies as public corruption in criminal proceedings. It is highly illegal to do what Trump did. We've buried mayors, city counsel members, and governors for far less, with far less.

    Also, withholding the WB compliant was itself illegal, as is telling government agencies and employees to ignore subpoenas from congressional committees without a claim of executive privilege - which is contempt of Congress, and is a crime.


    All of the witnesses the testified before the House stated they saw Trump's interests as entirely political, including hand picked diplomats appointed by Trump. Not only that the whole point of Trump's scheme was to get Ukraine to make public commitments to investigations, giving the American people the impression the Ukraine was doing this independently, while concealing in private that it was Trump that was the puppeteer the entire time.

    We all know Trump had a political interest in this and has been obsessed with getting his enemies under public clouds of investigation. This playing stupid **** got old a long time ago.


    1. It was also the situation with respect to Clinton his perjury was of a personal nature. That also made it less palatable for a removal.

    2. There was no use of public funds. The aid was released and no investigation was required.
    That's really the bottom line here.

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    Re: Trump lawyer says a president cannot be impeached for abusing his power

    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius68 View Post
    The rest of the passage quoted ought to be thought about as well. It indicates that an impeachment will flare the passions of society and that decisions will be rendered as a result of power and not guilt or innocence.

    For that reason, impeachment should be reserved to injuries done to society.

    Considering, again, that the aid was released and no investigation required, it would seem that no injury to society was caused.
    Throwing an election is not injurious? Good luck selling that ...
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    The 10 Commandments of Logic - (Courtesy of Abbazorkzog Blog)

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    Re: Trump lawyer says a president cannot be impeached for abusing his power

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    Yes, because People = House.
    indirectly in a representational fashion and manner. The House is ultimately responsible to the People.

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    Re: Trump lawyer says a president cannot be impeached for abusing his power

    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius68 View Post
    The rest of the passage quoted ought to be thought about as well. It indicates that an impeachment will flare the passions of society and that decisions will be rendered as a result of power and not guilt or innocence.

    For that reason, impeachment should be reserved to injuries done to society.

    Considering, again, that the aid was released and no investigation required, it would seem that no injury to society was caused.
    I am glad to see that you admit that Trump did what he is accused of: He withheld aid (and according to the GAO, illegally) that Congress had appropriated for Ukraine, for the purpose of pressuring President Zelensky to launch a pretty clearly bogus investigation into Joe Biden, which would do nothing at all to help either Ukraine or the United States, but would work to Trump’s personal political benefit. Withholding the aid would have sabotaged Ukraine in its war against Russia, and even hinting at withholding the aid has harmed Ukraine’s negotiating position with Russia. So Trump has done public harm in an attempt to get private benefit.

    But you say, no problem, they got the aid, so no harm. Zelensky was within days of announcing the investigations in a CNN interview, but the whistleblower report and Congress’ resulting curiosity about what was going on caused Trump to release the aid, after which Zelensky cancelled the interview.

    Taking hostages is not mitigated by letting the hostages go. The "harm" is already done. Likewise, Trump did what he was accused of and letting the aid pass finally doesn't undo the abuse of power.
    "The ship of democracy, which has weathered all storms, may sink through the mutiny of those on board." -- Grover Cleveland

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    Re: Trump lawyer says a president cannot be impeached for abusing his power

    Quote Originally Posted by Rexedgar View Post
    Alan Dershowitz: Trump Could Give Away Alaska And Be Protected By SCOTUS |
    HillReporter.com



    Aside: Dershowitz has distanced himself from the legal team of POTUS, saying he is arguing the Constitution, wouldn’t that put Dershowitz in the ‘witness’ category.
    No and that is an absurd claim. It is claiming that any defense attorney who argues his client didn't break any law even if having done what the prosecution claims therefore is a witness? No, one's opinion on the application of the law isn't even allowed as testimony.

    It is important to understand just how intensely the fascist police-state Democrats in Congress truly hate due process, the rule of law and the rules of evidence. In fact, the impeachment hearings were the Democratic Party disavowing their oaths of office to act like police-state totalitarians by making a case 100% outside the rules of evidence basing it entirely on inadmissible testimony of only inadmissible hearsay, inadmissible speculation and inadmissible personal opinions. The Democrats literally did not offer or have even 1 witness who gave admissibel testimony.

    The Democratic Party openly claims that the language of the Constitution ("high crimes and misdemeanors") is irrelevant to them, due process is irrelevant, rule of law is irrelevant and rules of evidence are all irrelevant - noting virtually all of the Democrats in Congress are lawyers.

    Even more horrific than the impeachment is the Democratic Party's open hatred for the most established rules of fair trials in the USA and Western society for centuries. They claim that ANY can be prosecuted solely as a popularity contest with the only proof being innuendo, speculation personal opinions of personal adversaries. No admissible or direct evidence whatsoever is necessary.

    Thus, whoever has the power to select the grand jury can pick people who will indict anyone that power doesn't like or wants to destroy. If you are a Muslim and the ruling political authority doesn't like Muslims, they could indict that Muslim based upon no admissible evidence - just people who openly hate Muslims testifying in their opinion the Muslim in his mind is thinking about mass murder - and that is sufficient to indict that Muslim for being a terrorist and conspiracy to commit mass murder. No admissible evidence even required, nor does it matter what the criminal statute says.

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