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Michael Flynn moves to withdraw guilty plea, citing 'bad faith' by government

Fred C Dobbs II said:
There was never any evidence pf any crime.They mean the same thing!!
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This is not correct.

There is a difference between zero evidence and some evidence.

There was never any crime nor evidence of any crime.
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The following pieces of evidence are suspicious but do not rise to the burden of proof necessary to prove the crime of conspiracy beyond a reasonable doubt.

Guide to the Mueller Report’s Findings on “Collusion” - Just Security

I. Summary of Major Findings

The redacted Mueller Report documents a series of activities that show strong evidence of collusion. Or, more precisely, it provides significant evidence that Trump Campaign associates coordinated with, cooperated with, encouraged, or gave support to the Russia/WikiLeaks election interference activities. The Report documents the following actions (each of which is analyzed in detail in Part II):

1. Trump was receptive to a Campaign national security adviser’s (George Papadopoulos) pursuit of a back channel to Putin.

2. Kremlin operatives provided the Campaign a preview of the Russian plan to distribute stolen emails.

3. The Trump Campaign chairman and deputy chairman (Paul Manafort and Rick Gates) knowingly shared internal polling data and information on battleground states with a Russian spy; and the Campaign chairman worked with the Russian spy on a pro-Russia “peace” plan for Ukraine.

4. The Trump Campaign chairman periodically shared internal polling data with the Russian spy with the expectation it would be shared with Putin-linked oligarch, Oleg Deripaska.

5. Trump Campaign chairman Manafort expected Trump’s winning the presidency would mean Deripaska would want to use Manafort to advance Deripaska’s interests in the United States and elsewhere.

6. Trump Tower meeting: (1) On receiving an email offering derogatory information on Clinton coming from a Russian government official, Donald Trump Jr. “appears to have accepted that offer;” (2) members of the Campaign discussed the Trump Tower meeting beforehand; (3) Donald Trump Jr. told the Russians during the meeting that Trump could revisit the issue of the Magnitsky Act if elected.

7. A Trump Campaign official told the Special Counsel he “felt obliged to object” to a GOP Platform change on Ukraine because it contradicted Trump’s wishes; however, the investigation did not establish that Gordon was directed by Trump.

8. Russian military hackers may have followed Trump’s July 27, 2016 public statement “Russia if you’re listening …” within hours by targeting Clinton’s personal office for the first time.

9. Trump requested campaign affiliates to get Clinton’s emails, which resulted in an individual apparently acting in coordination with the Campaign claiming to have successfully contacted Russian hackers.

10. The Trump Campaign—and Trump personally—appeared to have advanced knowledge of future WikiLeaks releases.

11. The Trump Campaign coordinated campaign-related public communications based on future WikiLeaks releases.

12. Michael Cohen, on behalf of the Trump Organization, brokered a secret deal for a Trump Tower Moscow project directly involving Putin’s inner circle, at least until June 2016.

13. During the presidential transition, Jared Kushner and Eric Prince engaged in secret back channel communications with Russian agents. (1) Kushner suggested to the Russian Ambassador that they use a secure communication line from within the Russian Embassy to speak with Russian Generals; and (2) Prince and Kushner’s friend Rick Gerson conducted secret back channel meetings with a Putin agent to develop a plan for U.S.-Russian relations.

14. During the presidential transition, in coordination with other members of the Transition Team, Michael Flynn spoke with the Russian Ambassador to prevent a tit for tat Russian response to the Obama administration’s imposition of sanctions for election interference; the Russians agreed not to retaliate saying they wanted a good relationship with the incoming administration.
 
W_Heisenberg said:
This is not correct.

There is a difference between zero evidence and some evidence.



The following pieces of evidence are suspicious but do not rise to the burden of proof necessary to prove the crime of conspiracy beyond a reasonable doubt.

Guide to the Mueller Report’s Findings on “Collusion” - Just Security

I. Summary of Major Findings

The redacted Mueller Report documents a series of activities that show strong evidence of collusion. Or, more precisely, it provides significant evidence that Trump Campaign associates coordinated with, cooperated with, encouraged, or gave support to the Russia/WikiLeaks election interference activities. The Report documents the following actions (each of which is analyzed in detail in Part II):

1. Trump was receptive to a Campaign national security adviser’s (George Papadopoulos) pursuit of a back channel to Putin.

2. Kremlin operatives provided the Campaign a preview of the Russian plan to distribute stolen emails.

3. The Trump Campaign chairman and deputy chairman (Paul Manafort and Rick Gates) knowingly shared internal polling data and information on battleground states with a Russian spy; and the Campaign chairman worked with the Russian spy on a pro-Russia “peace” plan for Ukraine.

4. The Trump Campaign chairman periodically shared internal polling data with the Russian spy with the expectation it would be shared with Putin-linked oligarch, Oleg Deripaska.

5. Trump Campaign chairman Manafort expected Trump’s winning the presidency would mean Deripaska would want to use Manafort to advance Deripaska’s interests in the United States and elsewhere.

6. Trump Tower meeting: (1) On receiving an email offering derogatory information on Clinton coming from a Russian government official, Donald Trump Jr. “appears to have accepted that offer;” (2) members of the Campaign discussed the Trump Tower meeting beforehand; (3) Donald Trump Jr. told the Russians during the meeting that Trump could revisit the issue of the Magnitsky Act if elected.

7. A Trump Campaign official told the Special Counsel he “felt obliged to object” to a GOP Platform change on Ukraine because it contradicted Trump’s wishes; however, the investigation did not establish that Gordon was directed by Trump.

8. Russian military hackers may have followed Trump’s July 27, 2016 public statement “Russia if you’re listening …” within hours by targeting Clinton’s personal office for the first time.

9. Trump requested campaign affiliates to get Clinton’s emails, which resulted in an individual apparently acting in coordination with the Campaign claiming to have successfully contacted Russian hackers.

10. The Trump Campaign—and Trump personally—appeared to have advanced knowledge of future WikiLeaks releases.

11. The Trump Campaign coordinated campaign-related public communications based on future WikiLeaks releases.

12. Michael Cohen, on behalf of the Trump Organization, brokered a secret deal for a Trump Tower Moscow project directly involving Putin’s inner circle, at least until June 2016.

13. During the presidential transition, Jared Kushner and Eric Prince engaged in secret back channel communications with Russian agents. (1) Kushner suggested to the Russian Ambassador that they use a secure communication line from within the Russian Embassy to speak with Russian Generals; and (2) Prince and Kushner’s friend Rick Gerson conducted secret back channel meetings with a Putin agent to develop a plan for U.S.-Russian relations.

14. During the presidential transition, in coordination with other members of the Transition Team, Michael Flynn spoke with the Russian Ambassador to prevent a tit for tat Russian response to the Obama administration’s imposition of sanctions for election interference; the Russians agreed not to retaliate saying they wanted a good relationship with the incoming administration.
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Why are you still trying to peddle this nonsense? Have you no shame?
 
Fred C Dobbs II said:
Why are you still trying to peddle this nonsense? Have you no shame?
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This is evidence.

This evidence is more than zero evidence.

I understand it is not iron-clad direct evidence or even strong circumstantial evidence from which we can infer a conspiracy was definitely committed, but it is still evidence.

So, therefore, to say there was zero evidence is a lie.

Why is this logic so hard for you to understand?

If you understand it, why can you not agree it is actual evidence without also having to put some sort of propagandistic spin on it?
 
W_Heisenberg said:
This is evidence.

This evidence is more than zero evidence.

I understand it is not iron-clad direct evidence or even strong circumstantial evidence from which we can infer a conspiracy was definitely committed, but it is still evidence.

So, therefore, to say there was zero evidence is a lie.

Why is this logic so hard for you to understand?

If you understand it, why can you not agree it is actual evidence without also having to put some sort of propagandistic spin on it?
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It isn't evidence of a claim that the Trump campaign conspired (and we are assuming the claims are correct). . It's evidence of Russia reaching out to the Trump campaign.
As the Steele Dossier is evidence of Russia reaching out to the Clinton campaign.
 
W_Heisenberg said:
This is evidence.

This evidence is more than zero evidence.

I understand it is not iron-clad direct evidence or even strong circumstantial evidence from which we can infer a conspiracy was definitely committed, but it is still evidence.

So, therefore, to say there was zero evidence is a lie.

Why is this logic so hard for you to understand?

If you understand it, why can you not agree it is actual evidence without also having to put some sort of propagandistic spin on it?
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So what was this not quite zero evidence again? That Flynn talked with Russians? That is zero evidence. That's part of his job!
 
SLC said:
Its desperation and no they don't have any shame.
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I used that quote deliberately because this is reminiscent of the McCarthy period, though much, much worse.

These conspirators were willing to destroy the lives of good and innocent fellows Americans and for what? They can't even pretend it was done in good faith or was a misunderstanding. Instead these disgusting people are trying to put lipstick on a pig. What's going on in the country is not good.
 
W_Heisenberg said:
This is not correct.

There is a difference between zero evidence and some evidence.



The following pieces of evidence are suspicious but do not rise to the burden of proof necessary to prove the crime of conspiracy beyond a reasonable doubt.

Guide to the Mueller Report’s Findings on “Collusion” - Just Security

I. Summary of Major Findings

The redacted Mueller Report documents a series of activities that show strong evidence of collusion. Or, more precisely, it provides significant evidence that Trump Campaign associates coordinated with, cooperated with, encouraged, or gave support to the Russia/WikiLeaks election interference activities. The Report documents the following actions (each of which is analyzed in detail in Part II):

1. Trump was receptive to a Campaign national security adviser’s (George Papadopoulos) pursuit of a back channel to Putin.

2. Kremlin operatives provided the Campaign a preview of the Russian plan to distribute stolen emails.

3. The Trump Campaign chairman and deputy chairman (Paul Manafort and Rick Gates) knowingly shared internal polling data and information on battleground states with a Russian spy; and the Campaign chairman worked with the Russian spy on a pro-Russia “peace” plan for Ukraine.

4. The Trump Campaign chairman periodically shared internal polling data with the Russian spy with the expectation it would be shared with Putin-linked oligarch, Oleg Deripaska.

5. Trump Campaign chairman Manafort expected Trump’s winning the presidency would mean Deripaska would want to use Manafort to advance Deripaska’s interests in the United States and elsewhere.

6. Trump Tower meeting: (1) On receiving an email offering derogatory information on Clinton coming from a Russian government official, Donald Trump Jr. “appears to have accepted that offer;” (2) members of the Campaign discussed the Trump Tower meeting beforehand; (3) Donald Trump Jr. told the Russians during the meeting that Trump could revisit the issue of the Magnitsky Act if elected.

7. A Trump Campaign official told the Special Counsel he “felt obliged to object” to a GOP Platform change on Ukraine because it contradicted Trump’s wishes; however, the investigation did not establish that Gordon was directed by Trump.

8. Russian military hackers may have followed Trump’s July 27, 2016 public statement “Russia if you’re listening …” within hours by targeting Clinton’s personal office for the first time.

9. Trump requested campaign affiliates to get Clinton’s emails, which resulted in an individual apparently acting in coordination with the Campaign claiming to have successfully contacted Russian hackers.

10. The Trump Campaign—and Trump personally—appeared to have advanced knowledge of future WikiLeaks releases.

11. The Trump Campaign coordinated campaign-related public communications based on future WikiLeaks releases.

12. Michael Cohen, on behalf of the Trump Organization, brokered a secret deal for a Trump Tower Moscow project directly involving Putin’s inner circle, at least until June 2016.

13. During the presidential transition, Jared Kushner and Eric Prince engaged in secret back channel communications with Russian agents. (1) Kushner suggested to the Russian Ambassador that they use a secure communication line from within the Russian Embassy to speak with Russian Generals; and (2) Prince and Kushner’s friend Rick Gerson conducted secret back channel meetings with a Putin agent to develop a plan for U.S.-Russian relations.

14. During the presidential transition, in coordination with other members of the Transition Team, Michael Flynn spoke with the Russian Ambassador to prevent a tit for tat Russian response to the Obama administration’s imposition of sanctions for election interference; the Russians agreed not to retaliate saying they wanted a good relationship with the incoming administration.
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Now post the cons from the same source about each point....oh, wait, you never do that.
 
Fred C Dobbs II said:
Why are you still trying to peddle this nonsense? Have you no shame?
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A good question for the Republican Senate who acquitted trump, knowing he was guilty as sin! Isn't it odd that the Republicans claim to be the "party of law and order" when they're almost always the lawless ones?
 
SLC said:
Its desperation and no they don't have any shame.
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I am desperate to get to November! Can't get here soon enough, my friend. Then, if we make it through to January without trump and his followers burning the country to the ground, we'll have a new Democratic president and Senate!
 
Fred C Dobbs II said:
I used that quote deliberately because this is reminiscent of the McCarthy period, though much, much worse.

These conspirators were willing to destroy the lives of good and innocent fellows Americans and for what? They can't even pretend it was done in good faith or was a misunderstanding. Instead these disgusting people are trying to put lipstick on a pig. What's going on in the country is not good.
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<sigh> "good, innocent fellows" :lamo

Kay, so: Nixon, McCarthy, Abromoff, Stone, Cohn, Manfort, Libby, etc.. All Republicans, all should, or should have been in jail!

Blows me away the utter level of delusion the right has been stricken by.
 
lurchadams said:
<sigh> "good, innocent fellows" :lamo

Kay, so: Nixon, McCarthy, Abromoff, Stone, Cohn, Manfort, Libby, etc.. All Republicans, all should, or should have been in jail!

Blows me away the utter level of delusion the right has been stricken by.
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If you're looking at history how can you ignore the most serious crimes involving slavery, Jim Crow and the KKK? And Democrats, of course, continue with that same racism.

However we'll see what happens when the investigations are complete and all the information becomes publicly available.
 
Fred C Dobbs II said:
If you're looking at history how can you ignore the most serious crimes involving slavery, Jim Crow and the KKK? And Democrats, of course, continue with that same racism.

However we'll see what happens when the investigations are complete and all the information becomes publicly available.
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I'm talking about modern Republicans over the past 100 years. You want to go back to the stone age.. I know.. because that's a Conservative's comfort zone. Things change, my nostalgic friend.
 
lurchadams said:
I am desperate to get to November! Can't get here soon enough, my friend. Then, if we make it through to January without trump and his followers burning the country to the ground, we'll have a new Democratic president and Senate!
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Is it your understanding that it is Trump supporters who are rioting, looting, attacking the police and actually burning buildings to the ground?

Where do you get your information? Who told you that? They're actually leftists, and your bubble deserves to be burst.
 
lurchadams said:
I'm talking about modern Republicans over the past 100 years. You want to go back to the stone age.. I know.. because that's a Conservative's comfort zone. Things change, my nostalgic friend.
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As mentioned, Democratic racism continued long after 100 years ago and continues today. You don't know that those riots are occurring in Dem cities?
 
Fred C Dobbs II said:
Is it your understanding that it is Trump supporters who are rioting, looting, attacking the police and actually burning buildings to the ground?

Where do you get your information? Who told you that? They're actually leftists, and your bubble deserves to be burst.
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Ok, my friend. "If he loses, trump will go quietly unifying this nation and making sure the transition in power is traditional".

Your brilliant argument convinced me! :)
 
Fred C Dobbs II said:
As mentioned, Democratic racism continued long after 100 years ago and continues today. You don't know that those riots are occurring in Dem cities?
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Oh, Yes, yes, yes! "I love, love, love me some violence and looting!"

Please Fred, you're embarrassing yourself, sir!
 
lurchadams said:
Ok, my friend. "If he loses, trump will go quietly unifying this nation and making sure the transition in power is traditional".

Your brilliant argument convinced me! :)
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And so it should.
 
lurchadams said:
Oh, Yes, yes, yes! "I love, love, love me some violence and looting!"

Please Fred, you're embarrassing yourself, sir!
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Whoa! Who do you think is doing all this rioting, looting, police attacks, etc. Republicans? Is that what you've been told?

Do you really not know or just pretending?
 
Fred C Dobbs II said:
It's all rubbish that's copy and paste. It will never stop because the truth no longer matters.
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What I pasted was merely a brief summary of the evidence concerning conspiracy that was made publicly available in the Special Counsel's report. Do you believe the things outlined in Vol 1 of the Special Counsel's report is false?
 
Fred C Dobbs II said:
So what was this not quite zero evidence again? That Flynn talked with Russians? That is zero evidence. That's part of his job!
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It's not part of his job to take $45,000 from the Russian government by way of a media company owned by the Russian government.

It's not part of his job to undermine U.S. foreign policy, or to engage in diplomacy without having the authorization to do so.

It's not part of his job to lie to Trump White House officials about his calls with Kislyak.

These are all suspicious actions on Flynn's part that warranted greater scrutiny, especially within the context of the broader counterintelligence investigation into the Russian government's intelligence operation against the U.S. attacking the U.S. election.
 
Fred C Dobbs II said:
I used that quote deliberately because this is reminiscent of the McCarthy period, though much, much worse.

These conspirators were willing to destroy the lives of good and innocent fellows Americans and for what? They can't even pretend it was done in good faith or was a misunderstanding. Instead these disgusting people are trying to put lipstick on a pig. What's going on in the country is not good.
Click to expand...

Flynn had several choices: Flynn could have refrained from saying anything at all to the FBI. Flynn could have told the truth to the FBI. Flynn could have lied.

Flynn chose to lie.

It's not the FBI's fault that Flynn lied. Flynn is a grown man. Flynn is responsible for his own behavior. Flynn is not a victim.
 
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