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Giuliani requested meeting with Ukraine president, new Trump impeachment evidence shows

MTAtech said:
You taught me nothing. Don't flatter yourself. The idea that the FBI, a conservative disciplined organization planned a coupe belongs in the conspiracy theory section of this forum. People who believe those notions cling to conspiracy theories, unproven allegations and propaganda. This is how I view you -- as an unhinged member of society looking under your bed for the deep state -- who is furious against your messiah, Trump.
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You seem unaware of the goings on inside the FBI and why several members were fired.

You never heard of this?

In one exchange, Page asked: “[Trump’s] not ever going to become president, right? Right?!” Strzok replied: “No. No he’s not. We’ll stop it.”

 Peter Strzok: FBI fires agent who criticized Trump in text messages | US news | The Guardian
 
Fred C Dobbs II said:
You seem unaware of the goings on inside the FBI and why several members were fired.

You never heard of this?

In one exchange, Page asked: “[Trump’s] not ever going to become president, right? Right?!” Strzok replied: “No. No he’s not. We’ll stop it.”

 Peter Strzok: FBI fires agent who criticized Trump in text messages | US news | The Guardian
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Strzok is not the embodiment of the FBI. In any case, The DOJ inspector general's Russia report did find FBI bias against Hillary Clinton, again. I am sure you will dismiss this as just another example of the powerful deep state at work -- which is convenient. If reports confirm your views, you get an ah ha moment. When they discredit your view, you get to dismiss them as "proof" of the conspiracy.

The report Justice Department Inspector General Michael Horowitz released Monday on the FBI's handling of the Trump-Russia investigation found no "documentary or testimonial evidence that political bias or improper motivation" influenced the decision to investigate members of Trump's 2016 campaign, including from Page — who played no role in those decisions — or Strzok.
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James972 said:
Actually deep state FBI had just attempted a coup against Trump so might not say his own FBI. NOtice the way a liberal always makes a conservative feel like a kindergarten teacher?
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That is giving conservatives too much credit, they are not anywhere intelligent to teach, they would be more on the intelligence level of the kindergartners, and that may be an insult to kindergartners...
 
MTAtech said:
He and Lisa Page.
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So there were no others involved? Not James Comey? McCabe? Orr? You missed out on a lot of high level drama that kept the internal investigators busy and is still going on today.
 
Fred C Dobbs II said:
So there were no others involved? Not James Comey? McCabe? Orr? You missed out on a lot of high level drama that kept the internal investigators busy and is still going on today.
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Horowitz’s Inspector General report found that there was no political bias by FBI leadership and that there was sufficient evidence to launch a counterintelligence probe of Donald Trump’s 2016 campaign.
 
MTAtech said:
Horowitz’s Inspector General report found that there was no political bias by FBI leadership and that there was sufficient evidence to launch a counterintelligence probe of Donald Trump’s 2016 campaign.
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Incorrect. In fact the FBI leadership was fired or let go and the Durham is still investigating. An interesting interview with Barr. Barr: Why Did The FBI Keep Investigating Trump, Well Into His Administration, After The Case Collapsed? | Video | RealClearPolitics

Here's what Horowitz actually said..FBI -- Michael Horowitz Pushes Back on Claim that He Exonerated FBI of Political Bias | National Review
 
Fred C Dobbs II said:
What "Guilt" are you referring to and is it listed in the Articles of Impeachment?
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I mean from reading the charges, the transcript, Trump's behaviour and listening to the witnesses in the hearings any reasonable person can ascertain Trump's guilt. I also believe it was equally easy for any reasonable person to ascertain that is what I meant. We both know the articles of impeachment can only contain accusations. I do not play semantic word games.
 
TomFitz said:
There is no transcript.

The Trump crowd presented a summary of a conversation, not a transcript.

Then they quickly moved to impound all the notes on the meetings behind a wall of secrecy.

Your point remains salient, though. The fact that the Trump White House concocted this summary (which the noise machine still insists is an actual transcript) says it all.

After all, they doctored this thing up.

And this was the best they could do!
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Thanks for clearing this up.
 
MTAtech said:
Horowitz’s Inspector General report found that there was no political bias by FBI leadership
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then why are some at FBI going to jail for lying to FISA court in order to spy on innocent Americans?? IF not out of political bias then what??? What IG meant was that hatred of Trump was hate not political bias. Either way FBI breaks law when it abuses its power out of hate or bias. NOw do you understand?
 
GDViking said:
That is giving conservatives too much credit, they are not anywhere intelligent to teach, they would be more on the intelligence level of the kindergartners, and that may be an insult to kindergartners...
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but the liberal said it was Trump's FBI when the FBI clearly hates him and Trump clearly does not trust them with an investigation that might make Trump look good and Biden bad.
 
James972 said:
then why are some at FBI going to jail for lying to FISA court in order to spy on innocent Americans?? IF not out of political bias then what??? What IG meant was that hatred of Trump was hate not political bias. Either way FBI breaks law when it abuses its power out of hate or bias. NOw do you understand?
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Who is going to jail?
 
James972 said:
but the liberal said it was Trump's FBI when the FBI clearly hates him and Trump clearly does not trust them with an investigation that might make Trump look good and Biden bad.
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Trump appoints the Attorney General, the FBI Director and approves the Assistant Directors. Yet, somehow these appointees are Trump's enemies, according to you.
 
James972 said:
if you have evidence it was doctored I'll pay you $10,000. Bet???

Trump and Biden traded aid for anti corruption; it was policy not impeachable. Case must be thrown out.
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Shall I IM you the arrangements to take payment?

I mean, are you serious?????

The document in question is NOT a transcript. It is a “summary” of a transcript. Thus, the content of the conversation was edited and summarized after the fact.

This White House has a three year history of manufacturing documents to support a narrative they are trying to build after they got caught doing something. The Mueller Report has 200 pages worth of that.

And, in this case, all the notes taken by others who were on the call have been gathered up and hidden in a classified server. This is not the normal procedure for official Presidential phone calls at all. And it is a transparent attempt to hide evidence related to that call.

So, what Trump and Trump tv and all the right wing ex disc jockeys are calling a “transcript”, is actually an after the fact made up summary, supplied by the White House. In other words, it’s whatever Trump says it is (since he’s obstructing anyone from seeing any of the notes or hearing from anyone else who was on the call).
Oh, as for my proof, take a look at the bottom of page 1.

http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2019/images/11/15/4-21-19.trump-zelensky.call.pdf
 
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MTAtech said:
Trump appoints the Attorney General, the FBI Director and approves the Assistant Directors. Yet, somehow these appointees are Trump's enemies, according to you.
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I’ve noticed that this is starting to get more and more common with Trumpsters.

They’re out of excuses.

So they just retread all the tired old deflections and take ridiculous positions for no other reason other than to troll the thread.
 
TomFitz said:
I’ve noticed that this is starting to get more and more common with Trumpsters.

They’re out of excuses.

So they just retread all the tired old deflections and take ridiculous positions for no other reason other than to troll the thread.
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You are right. They're backed up against the wall as all evidence points to Trump being as crooked as we have been saying for years. Faced with this evidence, their cognitive dissonance kicks in and first has them rejecting the evidence. But as more evidence pours in, they then have to retreat to parroting conspiracy theories about the entire government run by the "deep state." (If there really was a deep state, Trump wouldn't have gotten elected. If elected, after insulting the military, the CIA and the FBI, he would have been eliminated. The very fact that he's alive is testimony that the deep state doesn't exist.)

So, now Trumpsters are left clinging to wild, nonsensical, deranged, neurotic and paranoid theories of how everyone is out to get Trump, who is really pure as freshly fallen snow.

From this Atlantic article:

“A man with a conviction is a hard man to change,” Festinger, Henry Riecken, and Stanley Schacter wrote in When Prophecy Fails, their 1957 book about this study. “Tell him you disagree and he turns away. Show him facts or figures and he questions your sources. Appeal to logic and he fails to see your point … Suppose that he is presented with evidence, unequivocal and undeniable evidence, that his belief is wrong: what will happen? The individual will frequently emerge, not only unshaken, but even more convinced of the truth of his beliefs than ever before.”
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MTAtech said:
You are right. They're backed up against the wall as all evidence points to Trump being as crooked as we have been saying for years. Faced with this evidence, their cognitive dissonance kicks in and first has them rejecting the evidence. But as more evidence pours in, they then have to retreat to parroting conspiracy theories about the entire government run by the "deep state." (If there really was a deep state, Trump wouldn't have gotten elected. If elected, after insulting the military, the CIA and the FBI, he would have been eliminated. The very fact that he's alive is testimony that the deep state doesn't exist.)

So, now Trumpsters are left clinging to wild, nonsensical, deranged, neurotic and paranoid theories of how everyone is out to get Trump, who is really pure as freshly fallen snow.

From this Atlantic article:
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The last quote in your post is especially ominous, and is very much on display here.

I once came across a copy of a book called “The Big Con”, which was written in the late 1930’s, and was the basis for the 1972 movie “The Sting”.

It was actually a somewhat dry academic dissertation on an extremely interesting subject, high stakes con games. This sort of operation thrived in the early twentieth century. In his research, the author met and learned about a whole culture of operators who ran big con games all around the country.

To a man, every one of them assured him that the con man’s biggest defenders are always his victims.
 
MTAtech said:
You are right. They're backed up against the wall as all evidence points to Trump being as crooked as we have been saying for years. Faced with this evidence, their cognitive dissonance kicks in and first has them rejecting the evidence. But as more evidence pours in, they then have to retreat to parroting conspiracy theories about the entire government run by the "deep state." (If there really was a deep state, Trump wouldn't have gotten elected. If elected, after insulting the military, the CIA and the FBI, he would have been eliminated. The very fact that he's alive is testimony that the deep state doesn't exist.)

So, now Trumpsters are left clinging to wild, nonsensical, deranged, neurotic and paranoid theories of how everyone is out to get Trump, who is really pure as freshly fallen snow.
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You must have been debating the subject for a while, and are aware of many of the issues involved, so how could you possibly come up with these obviously foolish conclusions?

Why not put out one or two of them at at time and we'll review them starting, perhaps, why anyone's 'back is against the wall'..
 
prometeus said:
So what? What is the issue?
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Corruption. Nepotism. Can you not see any possible conflict when the Vice Presidents son, who owes his position to his father, receives $5million in payments over 5 years? Have you seen Joe Biden's reaction when he learned there would be an investigation, and what then might happen to Ukrainian aid?
 
Fred C Dobbs II said:
Corruption. Nepotism. Can you not see any possible conflict when the Vice Presidents son, who owes his position to his father, receives $5million in payments over 5 years? Have you seen Joe Biden's reaction when he learned there would be an investigation, and what then might happen to Ukrainian aid?
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Joe Biden’s reaction???? That doesn’t make any sense....
 
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