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Thread: Boeing has uncovered another potential design flaw with the 737 Max

  1. #11
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    Re: Boeing has uncovered another potential design flaw with the 737 Max

    Quote Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
    If I ran Boeing, I'd write off the entire 737-Max program. The problems are increasingly expensive and the public has lost confidence in the plane -- not to mention the government.

    It's far better to design a plane with a new sheet of "paper" than to try to retrofit an existing design to do things it wasn't intended upon doing.
    The problem is that it is cheaper to fix it at this point that delay and come out with a new design testing etc ...
    although you are probably right they should dump this line and put all their effort on their max 2 or whatever they are calling it.

    They are not so much retrofitting designs as they are fixing possible risks.
    i am sure they have the space to fix the wiring it is simply a matter of cost.

    the other issue that they have is they would lose all of the contract money awarded for the max
    that airlines bought.

    all in all this is still bad for boeing. people are going to be hesitant to get on those jets and airlines are not going to accept them unless
    major tests done and completed by the FAA.
    facts don't care about your feelings.

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    Re: Boeing has uncovered another potential design flaw with the 737 Max

    Quote Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
    If I ran Boeing, I'd write off the entire 737-Max program. The problems are increasingly expensive and the public has lost confidence in the plane -- not to mention the government.

    It's far better to design a plane with a new sheet of "paper" than to try to retrofit an existing design to do things it wasn't intended upon doing.
    That was a decision best made long ago....And it's also a good reminder as to what happens when pencil pushing business types overrule sound technical decisions.

    Now, I don't think they can just abandon the aircraft. Development cost them 2-3 Billion. Right now they have 800 grounded aircraft at a cost of at least $100M each and another 4200 in sales. That's $83 Billion sitting on the ground and half a trillion in lost revenue. Boeing has $100 billion in annual revenue. So far they've eaten $9Billion. That's 10% loss in revenue and more than 100% profit. Not to mention that the whole program was a response to the A320 Neo. Without anything comparable in the fleet, Boeing would be essentially ceding the single aisle market to Airbus.

    I think they **have** to fix it. And they should fire the entire corporate leadership. Its difficult to see how they could have made worse decisions.

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    Re: Boeing has uncovered another potential design flaw with the 737 Max

    Quote Originally Posted by Checkerboard Strangler View Post
    I can't argue because I am not an aviation expert, certainly not knowledgeable enough to state whether or not it's structural.
    That said, I did also use the word "systemic".
    Do you also disagree that the flaws are systemic as well?

    If yes, tell me why, maybe I can learn something from you.
    Depends on what system you’re talking about. The software issue with the MCAS was a bad decision that should have been eliminated before first delivery. If you have two data inputs for angle of attack which directly impacts the software’s ability to correct a stall, it only makes sense to use both. What really needs to be looked at here in my opinion, is how the internal decision process works and why did it fail.

    As for the wiring issue, nothing I’ve read has labeled the issues as definitely being a problem, but they are looking into it. On the face of it, it doesn’t sound like a major problem, but we don’t know all the facts yet.

    Boeing doesn’t build airplanes to crash. Like any company they’re worried about their bottom line, but they aren’t going to deliberately make decisions that will put people at risk.
    "I believe in a Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings."

    --Albert Einstein, 1929

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    Re: Boeing has uncovered another potential design flaw with the 737 Max

    Quote Originally Posted by Checkerboard Strangler View Post
    You're probably right but that makes the 737-Max a huge black eye on Boeing.
    And in the case of the 737-Max, it's not just poor public perception arising from a minor issue, like for instance the Chevy Corvair's tail wagging and understeer, both brought on by poor choice of shocks and tires and incorrect inflation, which were easily corrected.
    It's not a Ford Pinto with weak gas tank protection in the stern, which was finally reinforced.
    Nope, these problems are systemic and structural, if the reports are the least bit credible.

    The 737-Max isn't a Corvair or a Pinto, it's a Chevy Vega.
    Does Boeing want the image of producing the air version of a Chevy Vega as its legacy?
    Probably already too late to shed that image at this point.
    From my retail experience: take your loss early. In this case earlier.
    "The ship of democracy, which has weathered all storms, may sink through the mutiny of those on board." -- Grover Cleveland

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    Re: Boeing has uncovered another potential design flaw with the 737 Max

    Quote Originally Posted by Rexedgar View Post
    What is the appropriate reaction when when the pilot loses control of the tail, (rudder/elevator,) during flight?
    Personally I would think that "involuntary defecation" would NOT be outside of the range of "appropriate reactions".
    I was told that the best things for me were to eat healthy foods, walk up hills, stop smoking cigars, and cut out drinking Scotch.
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    Re: Boeing has uncovered another potential design flaw with the 737 Max

    Quote Originally Posted by Checkerboard Strangler View Post
    You're probably right but that makes the 737-Max a huge black eye on Boeing.
    And in the case of the 737-Max, it's not just poor public perception arising from a minor issue, like for instance the Chevy Corvair's tail wagging and understeer, both brought on by poor choice of shocks and tires and incorrect inflation, which were easily corrected.
    It's not a Ford Pinto with weak gas tank protection in the stern, which was finally reinforced.
    Nope, these problems are systemic and structural, if the reports are the least bit credible.

    The 737-Max isn't a Corvair or a Pinto, it's a Chevy Vega.
    Does Boeing want the image of producing the air version of a Chevy Vega as its legacy?
    Probably already too late to shed that image at this point.
    There is a problem with "writing off the 737-Max" program since it is going to be somewhat difficult to do that on any BELIEVABLE grounds other than "this aircraft is NOT safe to fly" and that would expose Boeing to a horrendous level of legal liability (read as "it would cost Boeing BILLIONS to settle all the damage actions arising from the claim that "Boeing built and marketed an aircraft that it knew, or ought reasonably knew, was so defective that it was unsafe to fly.".

    Since the actions could be spread around the world (depending on where the sales contracts were actually signed) the legal costs involved in simply engaging counsel would be very high as well.

    For the actions in the US, the propensity of juries to award damages in (to my mind) profoundly stupid amounts (and by that I mean so incredibly high that they are ridiculous) raises the stakes even further.

    Quite frankly Boeing would be better advised to "continue manufacturing" the 737-Max but slapping a $10,000,000,000 price tag on it and insisting on payment in full before construction is even started (with the sales contract having a delivery date of "whenever completed and tested to Boeing's satisfaction"). There is absolutely no need to assign more than one person to build each aircraft.
    I was told that the best things for me were to eat healthy foods, walk up hills, stop smoking cigars, and cut out drinking Scotch.
    With my record, I don't _DESERVE_ the best. What's second best?
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    Re: Boeing has uncovered another potential design flaw with the 737 Max

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    The problem is that it is cheaper to fix it at this point that delay and come out with a new design testing etc ...
    although you are probably right they should dump this line and put all their effort on their max 2 or whatever they are calling it.

    They are not so much retrofitting designs as they are fixing possible risks.
    i am sure they have the space to fix the wiring it is simply a matter of cost.

    the other issue that they have is they would lose all of the contract money awarded for the max
    that airlines bought.

    all in all this is still bad for boeing. people are going to be hesitant to get on those jets and airlines are not going to accept them unless
    major tests done and completed by the FAA.
    Not only that, but given the demonstrated strictness with which the FAA conducted independent testing to ensure that the 737-Max was fully in compliance with the standards and regulations, some purchasers will be "rather hesitant to accept any finding from the FAA that the defects have been fully rectified and that there are no other unpleasant surprises waiting to be found" (read as "simply will not trust that the FAA certifications are honest").
    I was told that the best things for me were to eat healthy foods, walk up hills, stop smoking cigars, and cut out drinking Scotch.
    With my record, I don't _DESERVE_ the best. What's second best?
    (Retirement Dinner remarks)



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    Re: Boeing has uncovered another potential design flaw with the 737 Max

    Quote Originally Posted by Rexedgar View Post
    What is the appropriate reaction when when the pilot loses control of the tail, (rudder/elevator,) during flight?
    That depends on the nature of the failure.

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    Re: Boeing has uncovered another potential design flaw with the 737 Max

    Quote Originally Posted by TU Curmudgeon View Post
    Not only that, but given the demonstrated strictness with which the FAA conducted independent testing to ensure that the 737-Max was fully in compliance with the standards and regulations, some purchasers will be "rather hesitant to accept any finding from the FAA that the defects have been fully rectified and that there are no other unpleasant surprises waiting to be found" (read as "simply will not trust that the FAA certifications are honest").
    That's already happening. There use to be a gentlemans agreement that anything approved by the FFA or European regulator or Japanese andnso on would only need paperwork to get approval in other jurisdictions. That is gone with the Europeans and others now requiring full testing according to thier standards.

    Sent from my Honor 8X
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    Re: Boeing has uncovered another potential design flaw with the 737 Max

    Quote Originally Posted by TU Curmudgeon View Post
    Not only that, but given the demonstrated strictness with which the FAA conducted independent testing to ensure that the 737-Max was fully in compliance with the standards and regulations, some purchasers will be "rather hesitant to accept any finding from the FAA that the defects have been fully rectified and that there are no other unpleasant surprises waiting to be found" (read as "simply will not trust that the FAA certifications are honest").
    Well to my understanding that glitch with the autopilot was not something that was expected and that there was a specific set of circumstances that set it off.
    that is not something that the FAA would look for.

    I was right so boeing had to shift some things on the max back including the landing gear and the engines to make everything fit.
    this would cause a less capable line of attack on take off and possible landings and they were attempting to keep the engines from stalling.

    So they implemented a system that would take the nose of the plane down if the take off angle of attack was too high.
    the system kicked in automatically without pilots doing anything (never a good idea).

    in any even the FAA probably didn't even know about it which is why it wasn't tested.
    facts don't care about your feelings.

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