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Congress passes Hong Kong rights bill as Trump tries to strike China trade deal

Mycroft said:
That's not true.

Heck, if what you say is true, then China would have no motivation to talk to Trump's negotiators at all.

Instead, the Chinese have repeatedly come back to the table. This is because Trump has played card after card that have great affect on China.

The only "hand" the Chinese have is their tactic of pretending to negotiate in good faith...only to pull back from their agreements. But they fully know that this won't stop Trump from playing even more cards that will greatly affect them.

But one thing Trump DOESN'T need is our own Congress helping the Chinese.
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Maybe you didn't hear the latest, Xi of China does not want to talk with Trump's negotiators. I think China is betting on Trump being impeached or losing the 2020 election hoping that they'll get someone with half a brain to sit down with them and do some legitimate discussions.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

China Doubts Long-Term Trade Deal Possible With Trump

Chinese officials are casting doubts about reaching a comprehensive long-term trade deal with the U.S. even as the two sides get close to signing a “phase one” agreement.

In private conversations with visitors to Beijing and other interlocutors in recent weeks, Chinese officials have warned they won’t budge on the thorniest issues, according to people familiar with the matter. They remain concerned about President Donald Trump’s impulsive nature and the risk he may back out of even the limited deal both sides say they want to sign in the coming weeks.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
Isn't it about time that all those treasonous traitors in Congress were indicted, tried, convicted, and executed for their treasonous behaviour?
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Nope.

But it is about time that US voters send those Congressmen packing.
 
HumblePi said:
Maybe you didn't hear the latest, Xi of China does not want to talk with Trump's negotiators. I think China is betting on Trump being impeached or losing the 2020 election hoping that they'll get someone with half a brain to sit down with them and do some legitimate discussions.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

China Doubts Long-Term Trade Deal Possible With Trump

Chinese officials are casting doubts about reaching a comprehensive long-term trade deal with the U.S. even as the two sides get close to signing a “phase one” agreement.

In private conversations with visitors to Beijing and other interlocutors in recent weeks, Chinese officials have warned they won’t budge on the thorniest issues, according to people familiar with the matter. They remain concerned about President Donald Trump’s impulsive nature and the risk he may back out of even the limited deal both sides say they want to sign in the coming weeks.
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Trump has been clear that he is not interested in a "limited deal". He is interested in a phased deal, but ultimately Trump will get the entire deal he wants or China will suffer.

If China decides to try to wait it out to see if Trump is impeached, they are making a mistake. Even if the House Dems take that step, Trump won't be going anywhere and he will continue to apply pressure on China.

btw, given China's previous tactics it is quite predictable that they will try to lead Trump on about this "phase one" issue and will then make up some nonsense excuse to back out of the deal. You can be sure that, just as happened the last time they pull that nonsense, Trump will slap them upside the head with another "card".
 
Mycroft said:
What part of "places roadblocks in front of other issues that directly affect US citizens" do you not understand?

Or, perhaps, did you not read about me referencing US/China trade negotiations?
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This actually gives Trump another lever to use. This works in our favor in the negotiations.
 
Mycroft said:
Trump has been clear that he is not interested in a "limited deal". He is interested in a phased deal, but ultimately Trump will get the entire deal he wants or China will suffer.

If China decides to try to wait it out to see if Trump is impeached, they are making a mistake. Even if the House Dems take that step, Trump won't be going anywhere and he will continue to apply pressure on China.

btw, given China's previous tactics it is quite predictable that they will try to lead Trump on about this "phase one" issue and will then make up some nonsense excuse to back out of the deal. You can be sure that, just as happened the last time they pull that nonsense, Trump will slap them upside the head with another "card".
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You are so sadly mistaken if you think China will be the one suffering. How many of China's farmers have lost their farms? Zero, because they don't own their own farms. Collectives own agricultural land and the state owns urban land. China, employs over 300 million farmers. China ranks first in worldwide farm output. Do you seriously believe that our farmers can outlast 300 million Chinese farmers? China has almost as many farmers than we have total US citizens.

China can well afford to hold back on any discussions until after the 2020 election.
 
HumblePi said:
You are so sadly mistaken if you think China will be the one suffering. How many of China's farmers have lost their farms? Zero, because they don't own their own farms. Collectives own agricultural land and the state owns urban land. China, employs over 300 million farmers. China ranks first in worldwide farm output. Do you seriously believe that our farmers can outlast 300 million Chinese farmers? China has almost as many farmers than we have total US citizens.

China can well afford to hold back on any discussions until after the 2020 election.
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China's economy isn't dependent upon the success of their farmers...anymore than the US economy depends upon the success of US farmers.

In other words, the "cards" Trump has to play will have a devastating effect on the Chinese economy...and China knows this.
 
Mycroft said:
China's economy isn't dependent upon the success of their farmers...anymore than the US economy depends upon the success of US farmers.

In other words, the "cards" Trump has to play will have a devastating effect on the Chinese economy...and China knows this.
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Our farmers will continue to receive bailouts (yes, entitlements) but the bulk of those entitlements are keeping the big farms afloat like the farm owned by Senator Grassley's son in law. The longer the tariff wars that Trump created go on, more farms will fail and we will all see the results in our supermarkets when we have to pay more for imported goods. China's farmers are only one piece of the whole puzzle as to what is being affected by Trump's tariffs.
 
Chomsky said:
That's why the virtually unanimous vote - including the Republicans - was so surprising to me. It makes it harder for Trump to resolve his trade war, which of course could play into his re-election prospects via the economy.
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Why? A republican introduced it in the Senate. The thing appears largely symbolic:

"This bill addresses Hong Kong's status under U.S. law and imposes sanctions on those responsible for human rights violations in Hong Kong. (Hong Kong is part of China but has a largely separate legal and economic system.)

The Department of State shall certify annually to Congress as to whether Hong Kong warrants its unique treatment under various treaties, agreements, and U.S. law. The analysis shall evaluate whether Hong Kong is upholding the rule of law and protecting rights enumerated in various documents, including (1) the agreement between the United Kingdom and China regarding Hong Kong's return to China, and (2) the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

The bill extends existing annual reporting requirements on matters of U.S. interest in Hong Kong through 2027 and expands such reports to include assessments of (1) limits to Hong Kong's autonomy, either self-imposed or due to China's actions; and (2) whether rescission of Hong Kong's special treatment would further erode Hong Kong's autonomy.

The President shall annually report to Congress on Hong Kong's enforcement of U.S. export controls, including whether items of U.S. origin have been used for mass surveillance in China and whether Hong Kong has been used to evade sanctions on North Korea or Iran.

The State Department shall notify Congress if any proposed or enacted law in Hong Kong negatively impacts U.S. interests, including by putting U.S. citizens at risk of rendition to China.

The President shall impose property and visa-blocking sanctions on foreign persons responsible for gross human rights violations in Hong Kong." H.R.3289 - 116th Congress (2019-2020): Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act of 2019 | Congress.gov | Library of Congress
 
McConnell will kill this just to be a dick.
 
washunut said:
I do agree it makes it harder for America to get a deal that slows China's unfair trade practices. While I do not agree with the tactics used (tariffs) I do applaud someone finally taking on what what be America's greatest foreign challenge. If your analysis is correct it seems congress might have been better off sleeping trough the Hong Kong mess than hurting America's chances for a better trade relationship with China.

On another note a bit disappointed you have not responded to my post on the thread "Trump did not Boost the economy"
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Been sporadically very busy in waves IRL, and wasn't aware of this. Unfortunately the "who quoted me" forum feature only holds 25 quotes, so if I'm not on the forum for a few days I'll miss any quotes more than 25. I'll see if I can dig your post up. Thanks.
 
Drawdown said:
Why? A republican introduced it in the Senate. The thing appears largely symbolic:

"This bill addresses Hong Kong's status under U.S. law and imposes sanctions on those responsible for human rights violations in Hong Kong. (Hong Kong is part of China but has a largely separate legal and economic system.)

The Department of State shall certify annually to Congress as to whether Hong Kong warrants its unique treatment under various treaties, agreements, and U.S. law. The analysis shall evaluate whether Hong Kong is upholding the rule of law and protecting rights enumerated in various documents, including (1) the agreement between the United Kingdom and China regarding Hong Kong's return to China, and (2) the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

The bill extends existing annual reporting requirements on matters of U.S. interest in Hong Kong through 2027 and expands such reports to include assessments of (1) limits to Hong Kong's autonomy, either self-imposed or due to China's actions; and (2) whether rescission of Hong Kong's special treatment would further erode Hong Kong's autonomy.

The President shall annually report to Congress on Hong Kong's enforcement of U.S. export controls, including whether items of U.S. origin have been used for mass surveillance in China and whether Hong Kong has been used to evade sanctions on North Korea or Iran.

The State Department shall notify Congress if any proposed or enacted law in Hong Kong negatively impacts U.S. interests, including by putting U.S. citizens at risk of rendition to China.

The President shall impose property and visa-blocking sanctions on foreign persons responsible for gross human rights violations in Hong Kong." H.R.3289 - 116th Congress (2019-2020): Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act of 2019 | Congress.gov | Library of Congress
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Because Trump is in delicate trade negotiations with China.
 
Rexedgar said:
How long does the bill stay in DJT’s inbox?
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Well it probably went straight to Junk Mail, then we'll have to investigate whether he did so at the request of Xi Jinping. Can't wait to see all of the State Department officials who handle US/China relations on TV.

:)
 
ElChupacabra said:
Well it probably went straight to Junk Mail, then we'll have to investigate whether he did so at the request of Xi Jinping. Can't wait to see all of the State Department officials who handle US/China relations on TV.

:)
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The people involved in the “Arab Spring” were also looking to the US for support of one type or another....
 
Chomsky said:
Because Trump is in delicate trade negotiations with China.
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I really don't care one way or the other about China or Trump. Requiring a bunch of paperwork is not really a bold stand by either party.

I guess I suffer from too much realism. Hong Kong changed it law to be able to extradite a murderer who packed his girlfriend's body in a suit case. Everything since then has just been absurd over-reaction.
 
Drawdown said:
I really don't care one way or the other about China or Trump. Requiring a bunch of paperwork is not really a bold stand by either party.

I guess I suffer from too much realism. Hong Kong changed it law to be able to extradite a murderer who packed his girlfriend's body in a suit case. Everything since then has just been absurd over-reaction.
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Fair enough, with your personal feelings. I was simply pointing-out this bill is now a component in the calculus involved in the trade negotiations.

For example:

China summoned a senior United States diplomat on Wednesday as it warned it would retaliate if US President Donald Trump signed the Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act into law.
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“China will take strong opposing measures, and the US has to bear all the consequences,” the statement said.
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(SCMP) China summons US diplomat, vows to retaliate if Donald Trump signs Hong Kong democracy act into law

And,

A fresh row between Washington and Beijing over U.S. legislation on Hong Kong has also threatened to undermine their trade talks and delay a phase one deal that investors had initially hoped to be signed by now.
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“We urge the U.S. side to cease this activity, stop before it’s too late and take measures to prevent these measures from becoming law, stop meddling in Hong Kong’s affairs and China’s affairs,” said Geng Shuang, spokesman at the Chinese foreign ministry.

“If they must insist on going down this wrong path China will take strong counter-measures,” Geng told reporters at a regular briefing on Thursday.
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Source: (Reuters) China says it will strive to reach 'phase one' trade deal with U.S.
 
Chomsky said:
Fair enough, with your personal feelings. I was simply pointing-out this bill is now a component in the calculus involved in the trade negotiations.

For example:





(SCMP) China summons US diplomat, vows to retaliate if Donald Trump signs Hong Kong democracy act into law

And,





Source: (Reuters) China says it will strive to reach 'phase one' trade deal with U.S.
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The China deal was never going to happen as long as Trump is POTUS. If it wasn't this, it would something else.
 
Whoa! Look at this!

Both versions of the bill would require the US government to produce an annual report, certified by the secretary of state, on whether Hong Kong had retained enough autonomy from Beijing to retain the distinct trading status that protects the city from the tariffs the US imposed on Chinese imports last year.
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(SCMP) China summons US diplomat, vows to retaliate if Donald Trump signs Hong Kong democracy act into law

It seems to me Congress lobbed a hand grenade into the negotiations!
 
Drawdown said:
The China deal was never going to happen as long as Trump is POTUS. If it wasn't this, it would something else.
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That's possible I think. I don't see any impetus for China to move to a deal during the election year, when Trump is in a precarious position, especially given the additional uncertainties of the impeachment and it's possible effects on the election.

But if they can bend Trump to a killer deal, they will take it. Especially if the economy slows, and Trump gets desperate.
 
1. Congress is just grandstanding: It will not affect Chinese action on Hong Kong even one iota.

2. If China is hesitating on smashing the Hong Kong protests, it is due to worrying about how Taiwan would react to a Tiananmen Square type of massacre.

3. I have heard that President Trump is going to sign it. At this time, he needs all the goodwill of the Senate that he can get. He is politically too weak to veto it.

4. Veto or no veto, China could not care less about such a toothless bill. Its protests are all show. It is always complaining about foreign leaders who say things that "hurt the feelings of the Chinese people." What a joke!
 
Mycroft said:
Are you not aware that most Congressmen...both Dem and Rep...oppose Trump's overall trade policies? Are you not aware that those Congressmen's paymasters...big money donors and their lobbyists...see Trump's trade policies as a threat?
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What has that got to do with "the President's attempts to deal with China's illegal trade"?

Well, other than the fact that the people who are likely to know what they are doing are of the opinion that "the President's attempts to deal with China's illegal trade" are NOT in America's best interests, of course.

Mycroft said:
For those who are aware of these facts, it's not surprising at all that Congress would use this Hong Kong action...that will have negligible effect on Hong Kong...as a means to satisfy their paymasters.
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Since you appear to believe that BOTH the "Republicans" (whatever that means) AND the "Democrats" (whatever that means) are acting contrary to the best interests of the American people, I presume that you are going to be voting for Mr. Trump in 2020 and will NOT be voting for EITHER a "Republican" (whatever that means) OR a "Democrat" (whatever that means) for any other elected office. Does that mean that you are going to be voting for

  1. the Alaskan Independence Party
  2. the Alliance Party of South Carolina
  3. the American Delta Party
  4. the American Freedom Party
  5. the American Solidarity Party
  6. the Anti-corruption Party
  7. the Charter Party
  8. the Citizens Party of the United States
  9. the Conservative Party of New York State
  10. the Constitution Party
  11. the Covenant Party
  12. the Freedom Socialist Party
  13. the Grassroots-Legalize Cannabis Party
  14. the Green Party
  15. the Humane Party
  16. the Independence Party of Minnesota
  17. the Independence Party of New York
  18. the Independent Citizens Movement
  19. the Independent Greens of Virginia
  20. the Independent Party of Connecticut
  21. the Independent Party of Delaware
  22. the Independent Party of Oregon
  23. the Justice Party
  24. the Legal Marijuana Now Party
  25. the Liberal Party of New York
  26. the Libertarian Party
  27. the Liberty Union Party
  28. the Moderate Party of Rhode Island
  29. the National Law Party
  30. the New Progressive Party of Puerto Rico
  31. the New York State Right to Life Party
  32. the Oregon Progressive Party
  33. the Party for Socialism and Liberation
  34. the Peace and Freedom Party
  35. the Popular Democratic Party of Puerto Rico
  36. the Progressive Dane Party
  37. the Prohibition Party
  38. the Puerto Rican Independence Party
  39. the Puerto Ricans for Puerto Rico Party
  40. the Reform Party
  41. the Rent Is Too Damn High Party
  42. the Serve America Movement
  43. the Socialist Action Party
  44. the Socialist Alternative Party
  45. the Socialist Equality Party
  46. the Socialist Party of Oregon
  47. the Socialist Party USA
  48. the Socialist Workers Party
  49. the Sovereign Union Movement
  50. the Tax Revolt Party
  51. the United Citizens Party
  52. the United States Marijuana Party
  53. the United States Pirate Party
  54. the United Utah Party
  55. the Vermont Progressive Party
  56. the Women's Equality Party
  57. the Workers World Party
  58. the Working Families Party
    or
  59. the Working People's Party of Puerto Rico?
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
What has that got to do with "the President's attempts to deal with China's illegal trade"?

Well, other than the fact that the people who are likely to know what they are doing are of the opinion that "the President's attempts to deal with China's illegal trade" are NOT in America's best interests, of course.



Since you appear to believe that BOTH the "Republicans" (whatever that means) AND the "Democrats" (whatever that means) are acting contrary to the best interests of the American people, I presume that you are going to be voting for Mr. Trump in 2020 and will NOT be voting for EITHER a "Republican" (whatever that means) OR a "Democrat" (whatever that means) for any other elected office. Does that mean that you are going to be voting for
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Did you read the OP's article? This bill gives the Chinese a bargaining chip.

Who are these "people who are likely to know what they are doing"? Are they the same people who have been making those predictions that turn out to be wrong? You know...like, "American consumers are going to pay for the tariffs". And hey...if they "are likely to know what they are doing", why haven't THEY done anything to deal with China's illegal trade practices?

Anyway, you can narrow down your list by removing any that involve leftwing nutjobs. I reject them out of hand. Otherwise, know that I tend to vote based on the person...not the party...and, at times, I don't vote at all.

I've said it before...I'll say it again...I'm not a herd animal.
 
TheParser said:
1. Congress is just grandstanding: It will not affect Chinese action on Hong Kong even one iota.

2. If China is hesitating on smashing the Hong Kong protests, it is due to worrying about how Taiwan would react to a Tiananmen Square type of massacre.

3. I have heard that President Trump is going to sign it. At this time, he needs all the goodwill of the Senate that he can get. He is politically too weak to veto it.

4. Veto or no veto, China could not care less about such a toothless bill. Its protests are all show. It is always complaining about foreign leaders who say things that "hurt the feelings of the Chinese people." What a joke!
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Did you see my several preceding posts to yours I'm quoting here? Starting at post #41? There's quotes & links in them displaying China's reaction, and it does not seem innocuous.
 
Mycroft said:
Did you read the OP's article? This bill gives the Chinese a bargaining chip.

Who are these "people who are likely to know what they are doing"? Are they the same people who have been making those predictions that turn out to be wrong? You know...like, "American consumers are going to pay for the tariffs". And hey...if they "are likely to know what they are doing", why haven't THEY done anything to deal with China's illegal trade practices?

Anyway, you can narrow down your list by removing any that involve leftwing nutjobs. I reject them out of hand. Otherwise, know that I tend to vote based on the person...not the party...and, at times, I don't vote at all.

I've said it before...I'll say it again...I'm not a herd animal.
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Check out my posts #41 & #43, if you'd like to see China's reaction and additionally see how HK is now inextricably tied to the tariffs.
 
HumblePi said:
How is it directly affecting U.S. citizens? This is an issue within China, not with US trade policies or tariffs. Trump hasn't said a single word about these demonstrations in Hong Kong, has he? He should be speaking out against the way the Chinese are handling this situation.They should be criticized for it, but he's not speaking a word about it, he's afraid to. Trump is weak, too weak to stand up to dictators like Kim Jong Un and Putin, and he's scared of China because he knows that in any tariff war, China wins.
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Ah, but this resolution now inextricably ties the NK situation to tariffs. The bill calls for annual review to see if HK has enough autonomy to not be subject to the current China tariffs.
 
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