• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

AMA calls for total ban on all e-cigarette, vaping products

Mongidig said:
That's just a lazy answer.
Click to expand...

Drinking affects you more than vaping or nicotine gum. Bring back prohibition? Same with white sugar, with obesity, diabetes and more. Shouldn't we ban that, and make drinking Cokes and Dr. Pepper a crime unless they are diet varieties? Oops, some of those affect insulin levels too! Guess it will just be plain water we can drink legally!

And after all the War on Drugs has worked so well, why not extend to to other products.
 
Lursa said:
Yes, I do understand the distinction. Thanks.
Click to expand...

But you're not acknowledging the distinction in your arguments. There's just little to no evidence that "nicotine" is harmful, or if it is that the harms are more than slight, especially for adults. The harm for most of those addicted to nicotine is how it's delivered, i.e. through tobacco products, mostly smoking.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
Surprisingly enough ANYTHING that the patient fully believes WILL alleviate a medical (as opposed to surgical) condition has a statistical record of working and ANYTHING that the patient fully believes will NOT alleviate a medical (as opposed to surgical) condition has a statistical record of NOT working.
Click to expand...

Yes. One of my favorite books is called Predictably Irrational by Dan Ariely.

51SO1Ja+-XL._AC_UY436_FMwebp_QL65_.jpg


One of the many fascinating chapters is about the placebo effect, and the problem with it when testing drugs is that the patients using a placebo don't just THINK they get better, they actually do get better. They have tests of people getting placebo pain killers, and brain scans show reductions in pain with some patients equivalent to actual pain killers from those getting injections of saline or whatever. Somehow believing the drug will work helps it work, versus a wrongheaded belief that it's working when it's not.

We're amazingly complex creatures and I'm sure in 100 years we'll look back at some of the stuff we believe now and it will be similar to what we think when we look at medicine 100 years ago.

About 14 years ago I went on a regimen of 10-12 vitamins to deal with addiction. I don't know if the vitamins helped, but I got better, fast, and never had the problems some did with withdrawal and cravings and the rest. Placebo effect? Who knows but I believed it would work, and the effect was REAL, to ME, so it did WORK.
 
Last edited:
SLC said:
I'm not trying to stop you from smoking cigars. But I have worked with patients that have had throat, larynx and mouth cancer surgeries . Cigar smokers have a much higher chance of contracting throat, larynx , mouth , lung cancers and heart disease. Trust me you wouldn't enjoy those. Dying from throat larynx and mouth cancer particularly suck. I rather die from old age in bed. Enjoy your smokes.
Click to expand...

I used smokeless tobacco, Skoal or the cheaper equivalent. It was a cancer scare that got me off it for good. Now I vape occasionally and don't worry so much about the cancer risk, and vaping doesn't leave me with the intense cravings that I had using tobacco. My doctors aren't 'happy' but they FAR prefer my current nicotine source than smokeless tobacco, as does my wife!
 
This article is more than 2 months old
Despite six confirmed deaths connected to vaping in the US there is no consensus on risks

Sarah Boseley Health editor

Fri 13 Sep 2019 03.00 EDTLast modified on Fri 13 Sep 2019 03.36 EDT

A person exhaling smoke from an electronic cigarette
Experts in the US are not convinced that e-cigarettes can help people quit smoking. Photograph: Eva Hambach/AFP/Getty Images

Is it true that e-cigarettes have caused deaths in the United States?

There have been six confirmed deaths connected to vaping across the US – in California, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Minnesota and Oregon – as well as more than 450 cases of reported lung problems.
Click to expand...

Vaping deaths in the US: what do you need to know? | Society | The Guardian

When will we get around to a ban on Jihad?
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
Surprisingly enough ANYTHING that the patient fully believes WILL alleviate a medical (as opposed to surgical) condition has a statistical record of working and ANYTHING that the patient fully believes will NOT alleviate a medical (as opposed to surgical) condition has a statistical record of NOT working.



I am sure that everyone thanks you for your heart-felt expression of compassion and concern as much as I do.
Click to expand...
I have worked with a VA patient that have had his left eye nose tongue lips and jaw removed and had a large flap of tissue and skin pulled up to cover those areas. They had to ask him not to go down to the cafeteria area because his appearance caused at least one person to throw up. He chewed tobacco and smoked cigars which likely caused his cancer. He just sat in a dark room deeply depressed. I would watch Cowboy games with him and he liked the company. Cancers of the mouth are very disfiguring and very lethal.
 
JasperL said:
I used smokeless tobacco, Skoal or the cheaper equivalent. It was a cancer scare that got me off it for good. Now I vape occasionally and don't worry so much about the cancer risk, and vaping doesn't leave me with the intense cravings that I had using tobacco. My doctors aren't 'happy' but they FAR prefer my current nicotine source than smokeless tobacco, as does my wife!
Click to expand...
Yep Skoal or its equivalent is particulay bad at causing oral cancers. Likewise cigars are bad because people chew on them and the carcinogens combine with the saliva and coat the mouth and throat while the smoke pollutes the lungs. Vapping is better and abstinence is best.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
One always loves the calls from people who don't do "X" to ban "X" (when "X" doesn't harm other people).

One laughs uproariously when those people have never done "X" in the first place.

How your comment fits into that equation I have no idea.
Click to expand...

As long as you wipe the stank off you and brush your teeth before mingling with non smokers I don't care what you do. Actually you increase the cost of healthcare so I do care.
 
JasperL said:
Drinking affects you more than vaping or nicotine gum. Bring back prohibition? Same with white sugar, with obesity, diabetes and more. Shouldn't we ban that, and make drinking Cokes and Dr. Pepper a crime unless they are diet varieties? Oops, some of those affect insulin levels too! Guess it will just be plain water we can drink legally!

And after all the War on Drugs has worked so well, why not extend to to other products.
Click to expand...

I don't usually smell Dr. Pepper on people's breath. What you eat doesn't affect me unless you fart it out.
 
Mongidig said:
I don't usually smell Dr. Pepper on people's breath. What you eat doesn't affect me unless you fart it out.
Click to expand...

Sorry but you're really NOT a special snowflake, and no one cares about your likes and dislikes. If you want to criminalize something, you'll need more than that.
 
Mongidig said:
I don't usually smell Dr. Pepper on people's breath. What you eat doesn't affect me unless you fart it out.
Click to expand...

Which is gonna happen. Full disclosure, here.
 
Renae said:
AMA calls for total ban on all e-cigarette, vaping products

Has a reformed vaper, who stopped at 4 months after hacking up blood... I support this move.
Click to expand...

Why not add cigarettes and cigars to that then seeing how that **** is way more dangerous than vaping? Nearly half a million people die a year because of tobacco smoking related illnesses. How many people die each year due to vaping related illnesses(assuming these are not aftermarket modified vapes)? Seems to me the safer choice is vaping.
 
JasperL said:
Yes. One of my favorite books is called Predictably Irrational by Dan Ariely.

51SO1Ja+-XL._AC_UY436_FMwebp_QL65_.jpg


One of the many fascinating chapters is about the placebo effect, and the problem with it when testing drugs is that the patients using a placebo don't just THINK they get better, they actually do get better. They have tests of people getting placebo pain killers, and brain scans show reductions in pain with some patients equivalent to actual pain killers from those getting injections of saline or whatever. Somehow believing the drug will work helps it work, versus a wrongheaded belief that it's working when it's not.

We're amazingly complex creatures and I'm sure in 100 years we'll look back at some of the stuff we believe now and it will be similar to what we think when we look at medicine 100 years ago.

About 14 years ago I went on a regimen of 10-12 vitamins to deal with addiction. I don't know if the vitamins helped, but I got better, fast, and never had the problems some did with withdrawal and cravings and the rest. Placebo effect? Who knows but I believed it would work, and the effect was REAL, to ME, so it did WORK.
Click to expand...

The amount of voluntary control that people CAN have over the functions of their own bodies is one of those subjects that the medical profession doesn't actually like to talk too much about. I have seen people "will" themselves to die (and do so successfully) and I have also seen people walking around and enjoying life who (statistically) should have been unable to get out of bed on their own.

Beneath the mysticism and claptrap that the ignorant have hung on them, some of the Eastern "psychophysical" (I'm sure that there is a better term than that, but I don't know it) disciplines have a LARGE kernel of truth to them.
 
SLC said:
I have worked with a VA patient that have had his left eye nose tongue lips and jaw removed and had a large flap of tissue and skin pulled up to cover those areas.
Click to expand...

OK, so what?

SLC said:
They had to ask him not to go down to the cafeteria area because his appearance caused at least one person to throw up.
Click to expand...

And this would be a problem of whom - the person who was unable to accept another human being because that other human being was physically different from themselves or ...?

SLC said:
He chewed tobacco and smoked cigars which likely caused his cancer.
Click to expand...

And the key word there is "likely" - isn't it?

SLC said:
He just sat in a dark room deeply depressed.
Click to expand...

Indeed, and Charles Wood

Burn patient.jpg​

did not.


SLC said:
I would watch Cowboy games with him and he liked the company.
Click to expand...

And I am sure that you felt very virtuous about it, too.

SLC said:
Cancers of the mouth are very disfiguring and very lethal.
Click to expand...

They can be.
 
Mongidig said:
As long as you wipe the stank off you and brush your teeth before mingling with non smokers I don't care what you do.
Click to expand...

Which, of course, is why you want to ban smoking totally.

Mongidig said:
Actually you increase the cost of healthcare so I do care.
Click to expand...

Surprisingly enough smokers do NOT "increase the cost of healthcare". This is due to the fact that they die earlier and so do not require decades of institutional care when they age to the point that they cannot live independently.

The lifetime costs were in Euros:

Healthy: 281,000

Obese: 250,000

Smokers: 220,000
[SOURCE]
​

So all of you "Health Freaks" are actually costing me around 20% MORE in healthcare costs than you would if you adopted my lifestyle.
 
SLC said:
Homeopathic medicine is a scam. Word of advice if you develop mouth tongue larynx cancer consider jumping in front of that bus.
Click to expand...

If you were my doctor I would fire you, because you are stuck in your ways and do not seem well researched. Homeopathic medicine is not a scam when done in a scientifically informed manner. You would know that if you were researched.
 
PirateMk1 said:
If you were my doctor I would fire you, because you are stuck in your ways and do not seem well researched. Homeopathic medicine is not a scam when done in a scientifically informed manner. You would know that if you were researched.
Click to expand...

"Homeopathy is a medical system based on the belief that the body can cure itself. Those who practice it use tiny amounts of natural substances, like plants and minerals. They believe these stimulate the healing process."

Up to there they have a pretty sound case.

However, at

"A basic belief behind homeopathy is “like cures like.” In other words, something that brings on symptoms in a healthy person can -- in a very small dose -- treat an illness with similar symptoms. This is meant to trigger the body’s natural defenses."

they start going off the rails.

When dealing with "psychogenic healing" it isn't the "treatment" that effects the cure. Rather it is the BELIEF in the "treatment" that effects the cure. The more strongly the belief is held, the more likely it is that the cure will happen.

This, obviously, doesn't work on things like broken legs, gunshot wounds, and dental caries.

You might be interested in the similarity between "Homeopathy" and "Christian Science" - BOTH of which have "effected cures".

You might also be interested in the similarity between "Homeopathy" and "Fundamental Evangelical Christianity: - BOTH of which have also "effected cures".
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
"Homeopathy is a medical system based on the belief that the body can cure itself. Those who practice it use tiny amounts of natural substances, like plants and minerals. They believe these stimulate the healing process."

Up to there they have a pretty sound case.

However, at

"A basic belief behind homeopathy is “like cures like.” In other words, something that brings on symptoms in a healthy person can -- in a very small dose -- treat an illness with similar symptoms. This is meant to trigger the body’s natural defenses."

they start going off the rails.

When dealing with "psychogenic healing" it isn't the "treatment" that effects the cure. Rather it is the BELIEF in the "treatment" that effects the cure. The more strongly the belief is held, the more likely it is that the cure will happen.

This, obviously, doesn't work on things like broken legs, gunshot wounds, and dental caries.

You might be interested in the similarity between "Homeopathy" and "Christian Science" - BOTH of which have "effected cures".

You might also be interested in the similarity between "Homeopathy" and "Fundamental Evangelical Christianity: - BOTH of which have also "effected cures".
Click to expand...

People get stupid with medicine of all forms. Knowledge and balance are key.
 
TU Curmudgeon said:
OK, so what?



And this would be a problem of whom - the person who was unable to accept another human being because that other human being was physically different from themselves or ...?



And the key word there is "likely" - isn't it?



Indeed, and Charles Wood


did not.




And I am sure that you felt very virtuous about it, too.



They can be.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your medical opinion. :roll:
 
SLC said:
Thank you for your medical opinion. :roll:
Click to expand...

If you want to base your case on anecdotal evidence, you shouldn't be surprised if someone else can produce contrary anecdotal evidence.

I one knew a person whose first job was working in coal mines.

He contracted "Black Lung" and his doctor advised him to find a new job.

He left the coal mines and got a job on a poultry farm.

He contracted "Chicken Handler's Disease" on top of his "Black Lung" and his doctor advised him to move to Canada where the air was cleaner.

He did and got a job working in a grain elevator.

He contracted "Grain Handler's Disease" on top of his "Chicken Handler's Disease" on top of his "Black Lung" and his doctor advised him to find a new job.

He did and got a job installing asbestos insulation in rail cars.

He contracted "Asbestosis" on top of his "Grain Handler's Disease" on top of his "Chicken Handler's Disease" on top of his "Black Lung".​

In spite of the fact that the fellow had approximately 1/8[SUP]th[/SUP] of his healthy lung function, he lived an active and independent life. His attitude was "I have a condition - NOT a disease.".
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom