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Trump ignores Pentagon advice and intervenes in military war crimes cases

I think this was probably more offensive outside the US than Obama's pardoning and commutations, but as bad as I think they were, it was in keeping with his job description whether or not he takes advice is kind irrelevant unless you happen to be the one giving it

Presidents used to do literally hundreds of pardons and commutations yearly, now it's headline news each time and these are hot-button anyway
 
HumblePi said:
[h=1]Trump ignores Pentagon advice and intervenes in military war crimes cases[/h]Washington (CNN)President Donald Trump ignored Pentagon advice Friday to pardon two officers and restore the rank of a third after all faced war crimes allegations. Trump granted a full pardon to Army 1st Lt. Clint Lorance, a full pardon to Army Major Mathew Golsteyn, and restored the rank of Navy SEAL Eddie R. Gallagher, who had been demoted.

Defense Secretary Mark Esper and other senior military leaders had told the President that a presidential pardon could potentially damage the integrity of the military judicial system, the ability of military leaders to ensure good order and discipline, and the confidence of US allies and partners who host US troops.
​A US Defense official told CNN that the leadership of the Defense Department made every effort to ensure that the President had all the necessary information at his disposal prior to making this decision.

​Even so, the President moved ahead with the decision, acting on the second day of the House impeachment inquiry's public hearings. It was also the day that his longtime political adviser and friend Roger Stone was found guilty of lying to and obstructing Congress in a case related to Trump and the release of stolen Democratic emails in 2016 by WikiLeaks.

Trump ignores Pentagon advice and intervenes in military war crimes cases - CNNPolitics
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Here's the clear signal for Rudy Giuliani. He'll get a pardon, no matter what.​​
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President Trump doesn't appear to have a very keen understanding of military culture. To be specific, Trump's view of a soldier's job is rather childlike.

"'Killing machines'

Trump tweeted on Oct. 12 that "the case of Major Mathew Golsteyn is now under review at the White House. Mathew is a highly decorated Green Beret who is being tried for killing a Taliban bombmaker. We train our boys to be killing machines, then prosecute them when they kill!"

One young officer, responding to Trump's "killing machines" comment, said, "That is not who we are."

And an official explained that "the President might think they acted in patriotism, but these were war crimes."

Trump ignores Pentagon advice and intervenes in military war crimes cases - CNNPolitics
 
Hamish Howl said:
So the short & skinny here is that RetiredUSN doesn't see any need for discipline in the military.
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I don't see any need to put our servicemen and service women in situations like the last president did.

Obama's overly restrictive rules of engagement, and having lawyers determine what justifies shooting back in a war theater instead of using seasoned veterans put our troops in a very dangerous predicament.

Spike in battlefield deaths linked to restrictive rules of engagement - Washington Times

I can understand when some soldiers lose it.

Community organizers like Obama and his lawyer buddies never spent any of their days wondering when it's their turn for the big dirt nap.
 
A shoutout to the President for his courage.

Instead of begging the Dems for mercy, he is going to fight to the last, including defying the Deep State elements of the Pentagon.

During the campaign, he promised to completely support our soldiers. He has kept his promise.

Our enemies are not nice guys. Why should we be?
 
HumblePi said:
[h=1]Trump ignores Pentagon advice and intervenes in military war crimes cases[/h]Washington (CNN)President Donald Trump ignored Pentagon advice Friday to pardon two officers and restore the rank of a third after all faced war crimes allegations. Trump granted a full pardon to Army 1st Lt. Clint Lorance, a full pardon to Army Major Mathew Golsteyn, and restored the rank of Navy SEAL Eddie R. Gallagher, who had been demoted.

Defense Secretary Mark Esper and other senior military leaders had told the President that a presidential pardon could potentially damage the integrity of the military judicial system, the ability of military leaders to ensure good order and discipline, and the confidence of US allies and partners who host US troops.
​A US Defense official told CNN that the leadership of the Defense Department made every effort to ensure that the President had all the necessary information at his disposal prior to making this decision.

​Even so, the President moved ahead with the decision, acting on the second day of the House impeachment inquiry's public hearings. It was also the day that his longtime political adviser and friend Roger Stone was found guilty of lying to and obstructing Congress in a case related to Trump and the release of stolen Democratic emails in 2016 by WikiLeaks.

Trump ignores Pentagon advice and intervenes in military war crimes cases - CNNPolitics
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Here's the clear signal for Rudy Giuliani. He'll get a pardon, no matter what.​​
Click to expand...

Why would Rudy need a pardon? What crime are you claiming he has committed?
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Hmm... Trump sought necessary information on each case and then made a decision. How is that not simply doing his job? Did Obama also "damage the integrity of military judicial system" when he commuted the sentence of Manning?
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You should be asking those questions to Defense Secretary Mark Esper because he obviously thinks it sends a bad signal for some reason. Let's end the 'whataboutism' already, it's tiresome.
 
JasperL said:
"HE DID IT TOO MOM!!!" has got to be the stupidest damn excuse. It doesn't work for FIVE YEAR OLD children, and it's all you Trump lemmings have. We can't get 3 posts into a thread before someone jumps in with that idiocy. What happened in some other case has NO bearing on the decision here.
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I know you like to pretend that Obama was never president, but he was. And what happens here all the time is that you guys on the left criticize Trump for doing things that you gave Obama a pass on or praised him for. So the real reason behind your rant is that you dont want Obama held accountable or your arguments pointed out as hypocritical. Sorry, thats not how it works.
 
Fletch said:
Why would Rudy need a pardon? What crime are you claiming he has committed?
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Assuming Rudy is convicted of the crimes that he's certainly going to be indicted for, Trump will pardon him. You want me to take a guess as to what the charges will be? Okay I'll do that. Eventually, Rudy may be charged with a variety of financial crimes such as bribery, extortion, campaign finance violation or failure to register as a foreign agent. Choose one, or maybe all of the above.
 
HumblePi said:
You should be asking those questions to Defense Secretary Mark Esper because he obviously thinks it sends a bad signal for some reason. Let's end the 'whataboutism' already, it's tiresome.
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Mark Esper is welcome to run for CINC, win that job and then he can make that call. It sends a worse signal to allow unelected executive branch employees to run things while the POTUS/CINC simply sits back and let's that happen. I'm not supporting Trump's every executive decision, but I am supporting his constitutional power to do so.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Mark Esper is welcome to run for CINC, win that job and then he can make that call. It sends a worse signal to allow unelected executive branch employees to run things while the POTUS/CINC simply sits back and let's that happen. I'm not supporting Trump's every executive decision, but I am supporting his constitutional power to do so.
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They love "whataboutism" when it fits their agenda.

Go team!
 
HumblePi said:
Assuming Rudy is convicted of the crimes that he's certainly going to be indicted for, Trump will pardon him. You want me to take a guess as to what the charges will be? Okay I'll do that. Eventually, Rudy may be charged with a variety of financial crimes such as bribery, extortion, campaign finance violation or failure to register as a foreign agent. Choose one, or maybe all of the above.
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Bribery and extortion? Of whom?
 
HumblePi said:
[h=1]Trump ignores Pentagon advice and intervenes in military war crimes cases[/h]Washington (CNN)President Donald Trump ignored Pentagon advice Friday to pardon two officers and restore the rank of a third after all faced war crimes allegations. Trump granted a full pardon to Army 1st Lt. Clint Lorance, a full pardon to Army Major Mathew Golsteyn, and restored the rank of Navy SEAL Eddie R. Gallagher, who had been demoted.

Defense Secretary Mark Esper and other senior military leaders had told the President that a presidential pardon could potentially damage the integrity of the military judicial system, the ability of military leaders to ensure good order and discipline, and the confidence of US allies and partners who host US troops.
​A US Defense official told CNN that the leadership of the Defense Department made every effort to ensure that the President had all the necessary information at his disposal prior to making this decision.

​Even so, the President moved ahead with the decision, acting on the second day of the House impeachment inquiry's public hearings. It was also the day that his longtime political adviser and friend Roger Stone was found guilty of lying to and obstructing Congress in a case related to Trump and the release of stolen Democratic emails in 2016 by WikiLeaks.

Trump ignores Pentagon advice and intervenes in military war crimes cases - CNNPolitics
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I am wondering if Trump had a civilian legal team look at the case in an unbiased manner and make his decision based on multiple points of view?
Is this a possible (albeit remote in your mind) consideration?

I will never post a FOX News article on this site because I KNOW THEY ARE BIASED. I really wish some people would consider the source of information they post.

PS, I agree the the leaders that it can POTENTIALLY DAMAGE THE INTEGRITY. I also agree that it can POTENTIALLY IMPROVE THE INTEGRITY of the judicial system by pointing out corruption and/or incorrect judgements.

The wondrous ability for our system to have checks and balances.
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ttwtt78640 said:
Mark Esper is welcome to run for CINC, win that job and then he can make that call. It sends a worse signal to allow unelected executive branch employees to run things while the POTUS/CINC simply sits back and let's that happen. I'm not supporting Trump's every executive decision, but I am supporting his constitutional power to do so.
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Look, just because he can don't mean he should. We're discussing whether he should have, not whether he could have.
 
Roadvirus said:
It's partly crap like that that lost us Vietnam.
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The US was raping, and burning the country with napalm, and bombing of soft civilian targets. If you think the US went into that war with a hand tied behind our back, you're insane.
 
Fletch said:
I know you like to pretend that Obama was never president, but he was. And what happens here all the time is that you guys on the left criticize Trump for doing things that you gave Obama a pass on or praised him for. So the real reason behind your rant is that you dont want Obama held accountable or your arguments pointed out as hypocritical. Sorry, thats not how it works.
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The reverse works just as well Fletch. I was here during the Obama years and those who criticized Obama but are giving Trump a pass are being just as hypocritical as what you allege on the left. The BOTH SIDES argument is almost always SCREAMING their own hypocrisy.

But the bottom line is HE DID IT TOO MOM! is just intellectual hackery. The cases here are NOT just like the Obama cases, and even if they were, the actions Trump took were either in principle 1) Good, or 2) Bad, and whatever Obama did has NO bearing on that case.

If you cheat on your wife, that action is good or bad without regard to what your wife's best friend did who she forgave. If she kicks you out of the house and takes half your assets, pointing out to the court she's a hypocrite because she forgave her friend for the SAME THING BOTH SIDES SHE DID IT TOO won't save you and I know you'd agree it should NOT save you. So why is it relevant here? It's not and you know it.

Besides, not everyone on "the left" who is criticizing Trump in this case, including the upper levels in the Pentagon, the various branches, veterans, and more gave Obama a pass. So excusing it with BOTH SIDES! is disregarding those who were NOT defending Obama. In the case I cited, NONE of the soldiers who served with the guy testified for the defense, and NINE testified against him. The both sides BS silences them, and what I said in the Obama years doesn't justify that - they were there, risking their lives. We should respect their views, not avoid discussing it by blaming Obama.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Mark Esper is welcome to run for CINC, win that job and then he can make that call. It sends a worse signal to allow unelected executive branch employees to run things while the POTUS/CINC simply sits back and let's that happen. I'm not supporting Trump's every executive decision, but I am supporting his constitutional power to do so.
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Nobody is questioning his 'power' to make decisions. It's a straw man. Of course he CAN do it, and the question is whether it was a good decision. Patriots criticize their government and those in charge when they believe it/they engage in wrongdoing, legal or not.
 
RetiredUSN said:
The Commander in Chief can intervene.

Obama pardoned much worse assholes that this guy.

So, I have to ask where you were then on similar issues?
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If you believed Obama was wrong, what's your opinion on this case? If the facts are functionally identical, and Obama pardoned assholes, then surely you agree Trump pardoned assholes and you condemn him for that, right?

That hypocrisy knife cuts both ways. You guys forget that.
 
JasperL said:
Nobody is questioning his 'power' to make decisions. It's a straw man. Of course he CAN do it, and the question is whether it was a good decision. Patriots criticize their government and those in charge when they believe it/they engage in wrongdoing, legal or not.
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Few are allowed to see the details of evidence (on either side) in these cases and I suspect that many object simply because they either assume guilt or hate Trump. Many of these same folks argue that a veteran should be sentenced more leniently in criminal cases up to and including a non-US citizen not being deported after felony convictions if they once served in the US military.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Few are allowed to see the details of evidence (on either side) in these cases and I suspect that many object simply because they either assume guilt or hate Trump. Many of these same folks argue that a veteran should be sentenced more leniently in criminal cases up to and including a non-US citizen not being deported after felony convictions if they once served in the US military.
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I can't argue someone else's position. I've criticized one of the cases, and it's because nine of the soldiers he served with and who witnessed it testified against him, NONE testified for him.
 
Sorry this president knows no boundaries and does whatever the f*** he wants to
 
JasperL said:
If you believed Obama was wrong, what's your opinion on this case? If the facts are functionally identical, and Obama pardoned assholes, then surely you agree Trump pardoned assholes and you condemn him for that, right?

That hypocrisy knife cuts both ways. You guys forget that.
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You guys?

Do I have a mouse in my pocket?
 
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