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Judge orders State Department to release Ukraine records in 30 days

Chomsky

Chomsky

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Washington (CNN)A federal judge Wednesday gave the State Department 30 days to release Ukraine-related records, including communications between Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and President Donald Trump's personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani.
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In response to an emergency motion from the watchdog group American Oversight, Judge Christopher Cooper ordered lawyers for the group and the State Department to come together to narrow the scope of the documents in the request -- eliminating those that would likely be exempt from release -- and produce documents in the next 30 days.
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Cooper said that he could not think of a third party exemption that would prevent the release of correspondence between Giuliani and top State Department officials regarding Ukraine.
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"The judge zeroed in on communications with Rudy Giuliani to be most subject to public disclosure. Why? Because he doesn't work for the government," American Oversight Executive Director Austin Evers told reporters after the hearing.
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Source: Judge orders State Department to release Ukraine records in 30 days

Well! Things impeachment just ratcheted-up a notch!

Some of us theorized if a point could be hit where Trump would thumb his nose at the judiciary. It looks like now, he'll get his chance. I suspect Trump will indeed refuse to cooperate, and I believe it will feed greatly into the impeachment argument in Pelosi's favor.

Let's not forget Obstruction of Congress was an article of impeachment filed against both Nixon & Bill Clinton. It seems the judge's ruling today would add evidence to the obstruction pile, even if this specific case was not brought by Congress itself. The judge is ruling there is no legal exemption to releasing the documents - the very documents the House impeachment inquiry committee also wants - the very documents Trump refuses to give Congress.

We're seeing a widening of Trump's upside down approval-disapproval numbers, along with seeing rising numbers in support of the impeachment inquiry & impeachment itself - particularly with Indies. If Trump refuses to release the texts, emails, and documents of the Ukraine & Giuliani, I only see these numbers continuing south for Trump. If he were to obstruct after a SCOTUS ruling goes against him, I do not see his presidency surviving
 
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You know, when you consider how much Republicans want the House to hurry up with impeachment, the Trump Administration and House Republicans sure are doing everything in their power to slow it the hell down.

Anyway, fighting the impeachment inquiry may amuse Republicans in the short term, but I don't think they're grasping that they're only making it worse for themselves. I also don't think they grasp how futile it is. Professional officials can see just fine that the wheels on the bus are coming off, and they're all coming forward in spite of the White House's orders to not testify.
 
Chomsky said:
We're seeing a widening of Trump's upside down approval-disapproval numbers, along with seeing rising numbers in support of the impeachment inquiry & impeachment itself - particularly with Indies. If Trump refuses to release the texts, emails, and documents of the Ukraine & Giuliani, I only see these numbers continuing south for Trump. If he were to obstruct after a SCOTUS ruling goes against him, I do not see his presidency surviving
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Nate Silver: "A week later, and there are a few more signs of deterioration in Trump's approval rating. Obviously nothing huge. His approval rating may or may not be decreasing, but we can fairly confidently say it's not *increasing* as a result of the first stages of the impeachment process."
 
Chomsky said:
Source: Judge orders State Department to release Ukraine records in 30 days

Well! Things impeachment just ratcheted-up a notch!

Some of us theorized if a point could be hit where Trump would thumb his nose at the judiciary. It looks like now, he'll get his chance. I suspect Trump will indeed refuse to cooperate, and I believe it will feed greatly into the impeachment argument in Pelosi's favor.

Let's not forget Obstruction of Congress was an article of impeachment filed against both Nixon & Bill Clinton. It seems the judge's ruling today would add evidence to the obstruction pile, even if this specific case was not brought by Congress itself. The judge is ruling there is no legal exemption to releasing the documents - the very documents the House impeachment inquiry committee also wants - the very documents Trump refuses to give Congress.

We're seeing a widening of Trump's upside down approval-disapproval numbers, along with seeing rising numbers in support of the impeachment inquiry & impeachment itself - particularly with Indies. If Trump refuses to release the texts, emails, and documents of the Ukraine & Giuliani, I only see these numbers continuing south for Trump. If he were to obstruct after a SCOTUS ruling goes against him, I do not see his presidency surviving
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Wow! I wasn't even aware that this court case was happening. Nice find! Besides Trump obviously it may portend some troubles ahead for Mr Pompeo as well.
 
Cardinal said:
You know, when you consider how much Republicans want the House to hurry up with impeachment, the Trump Administration and House Republicans sure are doing everything in their power to slow it the hell down.

Anyway, fighting the impeachment inquiry may amuse Republicans in the short term, but I don't think they're grasping that they're only making it worse for themselves.
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Trump will never win the election/impeachment game, if he goes against the courts. If he can't beat this in court, and it doesn't look like he will to me, this all goes into the impeachment evidence pile and the court of public opinion. I seriously can't imagine Trump surviving rebuffing the Supreme Court.

He's screwed here, baring a legal win. All those conversations of his, Rudy's, Barr's, his administration's, etc., will also be hell for him released to the public. In the end, his only choice will be to release everything and try his best to spin it. But I don't see that as a great thing for him, either. With release, he might survive impeachment, but he & the GOP are going to suffer some real pain here. Hopefully, it's enough to bring their downfall in the election.
 
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Atomic Kid said:
Wow! I wasn't even aware that this court case was happening. Nice find! Besides Trump obviously it may portend some troubles ahead for Mr Pompeo as well.
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Unfortunately with all the distractions Trump & the GOP are doing, many of us are losing sight of much of other important pieces of the puzzle. Obviously, they are doing this distraction intentionally.
 
Chomsky said:
Trump will never win the election/impeachment game, if he esgo against the courts. If he can't beat this in court, and it doesn't look like he will to me, this all goes into the impeachment evidence pile and the court of public opinion. I seriously can't imagine Trump surviving rebuffing the Supreme Court.

He's screwed here, baring a legal win. All those conversations of his, Rudy's, Barr's, his administration's, etc., will also be hell for him released to the public. In the end, his only choice will be to release everything and try his best to spin it. But I don't see that as a great thing for him, either. With release, he might survive impeachment, but he & the GOP are going to suffer some real pain here. Hopefully, it's enough to bring there downfall in the election.
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Gas lighting also doesn't seem to be helping them overly much. Or if it is, it's only among the most devoted of his base. When they finally figure out that doesn't work, what defense will they try next?
 
Cardinal said:
Nate Silver: "A week later, and there are a few more signs of deterioration in Trump's approval rating. Obviously nothing huge. His approval rating may or may not be decreasing, but we can fairly confidently say it's not *increasing* as a result of the first stages of the impeachment process."
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Trump's numbers are slowly changing, especially in regards to impeachment, and to that specifically with the Indies. It's actually turning into quite a storm, IMO.
 
Chomsky said:
Unfortunately with all the distractions Trump & the GOP are doing, many of us are losing sight of much of other important pieces of the puzzle. Obviously, they are doing this distraction intentionally.
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I admit I got baited into defending the process, which I won't be doing any longer. Let them scream about the process into a paper bag for all I care.
 
Chomsky said:
Trump's numbers are slowly changing, especially in regards to impeachment, and to that specifically with the Indies. It's actually turning into quite a storm, IMO.
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It could just as well go back to the baseline average of 43% in no time, but the point remains: impeachment is most certainly not hurting Democrats.
 
Cardinal said:
Gas lighting also doesn't seem to be helping them overly much. Or if it is, it's only among the most devoted of his base. When they finally figure out that doesn't work, what defense will they try next?
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It's working with the base, I suspect. We see them here in the forum defending him & harping about 2016. So to that, the GOP politicos are really screwed. They're frozen in place, and have to follow Trump down (hopefully) to the bitter end.
 
Cardinal said:
It could just as well go back to the baseline average of 43% in no time, but the point remains: impeachment is most certainly not hurting Democrats.
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Fair enough. But if it does, will Trump win the Indies back? That's an interesting question.
 
Chomsky said:
Fair enough. But if it does, will Trump win the Indies back? That's an interesting question.
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It must be assumed that come November 2020, his approval will be at 44%, and that one hundred percent of his base will make it to the polls.
 
Chomsky said:
Trump's numbers are slowly changing, especially in regards to impeachment, and to that specifically with the Indies. It's actually turning into quite a storm, IMO.
Click to expand...

Trump's base appears to be inclined to stick with him no matter what. But if he's losing the 'indies' at the rate he's losing them now he's in big trouble for 2020. Never mind impeachment. But a GOP who perceives that he can't win and fear he may drag a bunch of them down with him might become that much more inclined to turn against him. But we shall have to wait and see I guess. Because I still have my doubts that that GOP will follow through. Pairing clarity with conscience doesn't seem to be a strong suit of theirs.
 
Chomsky said:
Source: Judge orders State Department to release Ukraine records in 30 days

Well! Things impeachment just ratcheted-up a notch!

Some of us theorized if a point could be hit where Trump would thumb his nose at the judiciary. It looks like now, he'll get his chance. I suspect Trump will indeed refuse to cooperate, and I believe it will feed greatly into the impeachment argument in Pelosi's favor.

Let's not forget Obstruction of Congress was an article of impeachment filed against both Nixon & Bill Clinton. It seems the judge's ruling today would add evidence to the obstruction pile, even if this specific case was not brought by Congress itself. The judge is ruling there is no legal exemption to releasing the documents - the very documents the House impeachment inquiry committee also wants - the very documents Trump refuses to give Congress.

We're seeing a widening of Trump's upside down approval-disapproval numbers, along with seeing rising numbers in support of the impeachment inquiry & impeachment itself - particularly with Indies. If Trump refuses to release the texts, emails, and documents of the Ukraine & Giuliani, I only see these numbers continuing south for Trump. If he were to obstruct after a SCOTUS ruling goes against him, I do not see his presidency surviving
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I predict the administration will simply appeal.

Here's the issue. The courts have ruled that Congress has broad right to oversight and subpoena information, especially during an impeachment. The courts have also ruled that claims to executive privilege must be done in good faith, and that the Congress retains the right to render their own judgement of an administrations refusal to comply with oversight.

Because the Congress isa co-equal branch of government and in charge of oversight, they are not required to wait for a court verdict on a refusal by an administration to comply with oversight and impeachment proceedings. They can render a verdict of their own and rule that a president is not making good faith claims to EP, and is simply obstructing and delaying.

Don't believe me? Look at past impeachments.

Clinton
As President, using the Office of White House Counsel, William Jefferson Clinton frivolously and corruptly asserted executive privilege, which is intended to protect from disclosure communications regarding the constitutional functions of the Executive, and which may be exercised only by the President, with respect to communications other than those regarding the constitutional functions of the Executive, for the purpose of delaying and obstructing a Federal criminal investigation and the proceedings of a Federal grand jury
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Nixon
In his conduct of the office of President of the United States, Richard M. Nixon, contrary to his oath faithfully to execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in violation of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, has failed without lawful cause or excuse to produce papers and things as directed by duly authorized subpoenas issued by the Committee on the Judiciary of the House of Representatives on April 11, 1974, May 15, 1974, May 30, 1974, and June 24, 1974, and willfully disobeyed such subpoenas. The subpoenaed papers and things were deemed necessary by the Committee in order to resolve by direct evidence fundamental, factual questions relating to Presidential direction, knowledge or approval of actions demonstrated by other evidence to be substantial grounds for impeachment of the President. In refusing to produce these papers and things Richard M. Nixon, substituting his judgment as to what materials were necessary for the inquiry, interposed the powers of the Presidency against the the lawful subpoenas of the House of Representatives, thereby assuming to himself functions and judgments necessary to the exercise of the sole power of impeachment vested by the Constitution in the House of Representatives.
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Cardinal said:
It must be assumed that come November 2020, his approval will be at 44%, and that one hundred percent of his base will make it to the polls.
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No, his approval will remain low, but turnout will be a few percent higher for Republicans than is reflected in public polls, because many who disapprove won't vote.

There is a difference between public opinion and voter turnout.
 
MovingPictures said:
No, his approval will remain low, but turnout will be a few percent higher for Republicans than is reflected in public polls, because many who disapprove won't vote.

There is a difference between public opinion and voter turnout.
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My post allowed for that distinction.
 
Atomic Kid said:
Trump's base appears to be inclined to stick with him no matter what. But if he's losing the 'indies' at the rate he's losing them now he's in big trouble for 2020. Never mind impeachment. But a GOP who perceives that he can't win and fear he may drag a bunch of them down with him might become that much more inclined to turn against him. But we shall have to wait and see I guess. Because I still have my doubts that that GOP will follow through. Pairing clarity with conscience doesn't seem to be a strong suit of theirs.
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Exactly.

Trump's base is finite & inclusive. He has nowhere to expand, nowhere to improve. He can get beat by losing indies to the Dems, and he can get beat by a vigorous Dem turnout. Of these possibilities (supporters, Indies, Dems), two are very bad for Trump.
 
So can anyone tell me why thy have to release these records in the first place?
 
Chomsky said:
Fair enough. But if it does, will Trump win the Indies back? That's an interesting question.
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How can he win them back? Unless we see the entire Democratic field go on a murder rapange, he's lost that group of voters for good.

Remember, not once has Trump had a majority approval of independents, and for some time now he's been underwater at least 10% since the release of the Mueller report and his race rants.

He cooked his goose.
 
MovingPictures said:
I predict the administration will simply appeal.

Here's the issue. The courts have ruled that Congress has broad right to oversight and subpoena information, especially during an impeachment. The courts have also ruled that claims to executive privilege must be done in good faith, and that the Congress retains the right to render their own judgement of an administrations refusal to comply with oversight.

Because the Congress isa co-equal branch of government and in charge of oversight, they are not required to wait for a court verdict on a refusal by an administration to comply with oversight and impeachment proceedings. They can render a verdict of their own and rule that a president is not making good faith claims to EP, and is simply obstructing and delaying.

Don't believe me? Look at past impeachments.

Clinton

Nixon
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Of course they will appeal. But eventually these things make it to SCOTUS. Then Trump will have a hard decision to make, if he loses. We went through this with Nixon. I'd like to see Congress get involved in the legal challenges here, to fast track it. Nixon's court cases for the tapes, took what? Two months? Start, to finish?

As to Congressional Obstruction, that - especially today - will not carry the public weight that defying SCOTUS would.
 
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Chomsky said:
Source: Judge orders State Department to release Ukraine records in 30 days

Well! Things impeachment just ratcheted-up a notch!

Some of us theorized if a point could be hit where Trump would thumb his nose at the judiciary. It looks like now, he'll get his chance. I suspect Trump will indeed refuse to cooperate, and I believe it will feed greatly into the impeachment argument in Pelosi's favor.

Let's not forget Obstruction of Congress was an article of impeachment filed against both Nixon & Bill Clinton. It seems the judge's ruling today would add evidence to the obstruction pile, even if this specific case was not brought by Congress itself. The judge is ruling there is no legal exemption to releasing the documents - the very documents the House impeachment inquiry committee also wants - the very documents Trump refuses to give Congress.

We're seeing a widening of Trump's upside down approval-disapproval numbers, along with seeing rising numbers in support of the impeachment inquiry & impeachment itself - particularly with Indies. If Trump refuses to release the texts, emails, and documents of the Ukraine & Giuliani, I only see these numbers continuing south for Trump. If he were to obstruct after a SCOTUS ruling goes against him, I do not see his presidency surviving
Click to expand...
I'm guess the White House is preparing appeals as we speak. IF you want to drag Clinton and Nixon in as examples don't for get that there were pre-determined illegal acts as the basis of the impeachments. So far Dem have nothing be contorted nonsense, "just because we hate him", and a pile of fetid Schiff. Also remember that Congress is a CO-equal branch of government, not an omnipotent force that must be obeyed.
 
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