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Kurds Accuse Turkey of Violating Truce as Shelling Continues in Syria

Mycroft said:
Turkey wouldn't kill them. One of their ISIS "allies" would do it.
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You mean, the ISIS "allies" being let out of Kurdish prisons as we speak, thanks to Turkey's attacks, that Trump enabled? Yeah...that is concerning. It's easier to get on planes when NOT in prison.
 
Rexedgar said:
Crack a newspaper or a few history books, or just google. Your posts make little sense....
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The main point is that the Kurds control sectors of Turkish and Syrian lands and wish to govern those lands themselves. And will do anything to keep those lands. You need to crack open the history book.
 
OlNate said:
A great consolation to the folks who are dying today. Mycroft, I'm impressed at this new, more humane leaf you are turning.
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The sanctions are pretty minimal too; certainly nothing that will "totally destroy and obliterate" the Turkish economy. To think Pence and Pompeo went all the way there to get shown up.
 
Donald Trump has blood on his hands. Like little kid's blood.

The people that will deny that are Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Donald Trump. And any republicans who love those 3 people.
 
Simon W. Moon said:
What would you think if Trump actually said this?
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Trump said the PKK are terrorists. Not the Kurds. Similar to saying ANTIFA are terrorists but not Americans.
 
cabse5 said:
I guess you folks who swore the Iraq War was a bad idea are changing your tunes now? That it's OK for the US to 'bust up' a country (Turkey and Iraq, for examples) that are being forcefully held together by their governments and allow the bust up to create more American strife...and bloodshed...and use of American treasure? How many soldiers do you want to sacrifice in Turkey? How many years do you want the US mired in Turkey? How much money do you want to spend?
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I was opposed to the invasion of Iraq because our best information at the time said Iraq was unlikely to attack the US in the foreseeable future.

I suspect every major treatise on warfare says to avoid war when possible. [ I've only read a few of them. There may be some out there that say it's a good idea to go to war just whenever you feel like it. idk ]
Additionally, going to war in the absence of a realistic threat or an attack has been considered an unjust war for centuries.

Invading Iraq was unnecessary and expensive in blood and treasure.
To me, that was sufficient grounds for opposing it.

That said, it seems like it's a good idea to trust subject matter experts when it comes to their field of expertise.

How many soldiers have we "sacrificed in Turkey" so far?

Were there lots of Americans getting killed recently? Has the Trump Admin been covering up their deaths or something?
 
Mycroft said:
Turkey wouldn't kill them. One of their ISIS "allies" would do it.
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Turkey is allies with ISIS and Trump is letting Turkey tell us when to move our troops?

Turkey is allies with ISIS and Trump is getting out of their way so they can release ISIS prisoners?
 
OlNate said:
You mean, the ISIS "allies" being let out of Kurdish prisons as we speak, thanks to Turkey's attacks, that Trump enabled? Yeah...that is concerning. It's easier to get on planes when NOT in prison.
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No, I mean the ISIS, al Qaeda and Al-Nusra allies who have been hanging out in Turkey and who are now in Northern Syria with Turkish forces.
 
cabse5 said:
If the American economic sanctions destroy the government of Turkey, there will be nothing Erdogan will be able to do except try to save his own life.
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How long until Turkey's economy is "obliterated" (again)?
 
Simon W. Moon said:
Turkey is allies with ISIS and Trump is letting Turkey tell us when to move our troops?

Turkey is allies with ISIS and Trump is getting out of their way so they can release ISIS prisoners?
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So...do you want Trump to move those 50 soldiers back? Or do you want him to increase the number?

Do you seriously want the US to get into a shooting war with Turkey? A "NATO ally"?

Or would you rather we just stay out of it and let Turkey, Syria, Russia...and any other country who wants a piece of the action...duke it out?

I'll go with the latter choice.
 
cabse5 said:
How do you figure Trump thinks the Kurds are worse than ISIS?
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He mentioned the PKK as worse than ISIS. It was his excuse for kowtowing to Erdogan.
 
cabse5 said:
Trump said the PKK are terrorists. Not the Kurds. Similar to saying ANTIFA are terrorists but not Americans.
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Again, why is Trump sanctioning Turkey for killing terrorists?
 
cabse5 said:
I guess you folks who swore the Iraq War was a bad idea are changing your tunes now? That it's OK for the US to 'bust up' a country (Turkey and Iraq, for examples) that are being forcefully held together by their governments and allow the bust up to create more American strife...and bloodshed...and use of American treasure? How many soldiers do you want to sacrifice in Turkey? How many years do you want the US mired in Turkey? How much money do you want to spend?
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Who is promoting war with Turkey?
 
cabse5 said:
I think that Turkey would split apart. There are numerous tribes in Turkey. You think the Kurds would be the only tribe who would want their own country?
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That would be a great thing. Democracy works best when it is through smaller decentralized states.
 
Mycroft said:
So...do you want Trump to move those 50 soldiers back? Or do you want him to increase the number?
Do you seriously want the US to get into a shooting war with Turkey? A "NATO ally"?
Or would you rather we just stay out of it and let Turkey, Syria, Russia...and any other country who wants a piece of the action...duke it out?
I'll go with the latter choice.
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Personally, I'd defer to the input from the United States' professional military and foreign policy personnel.
I suspect that there are some strategic calculations which didn't make it into your post.
I also suspect that there are some strategic calculations which I am unaware of.
[ I think it's important to bear in mind the limits of one's knowledge when making decisions. I'm sure you do too. ]

We have to get out at some point. I'm generally opposed to our involvement in the ME.
I think removing ourselves from the ME is an exceptionally laudable goal.
But there could be some plans for getting us out which are worse than others.

Most of the objections I have seen to Trump's Syria decision have been opposed to the plan.
Most objection to the objections I have seen involve saying people should just accept this plan because the goal is a good goal.
So, most of the objections (that I have seen) to the objections to Trump Syria decision are straw men who address only the goal rather than the plan.
 
Simon W. Moon said:
Personally, I'd defer to the input from the United States' professional military and foreign policy personnel.
I suspect that there are some strategic calculations which didn't make it into your post.
I also suspect that there are some strategic calculations which I am unaware of.
[ I think it's important to bear in mind the limits of one's knowledge when making decisions. I'm sure you do too. ]

We have to get out at some point. I'm generally opposed to our involvement in the ME.
I think removing ourselves from the ME is an exceptionally laudable goal.
But there could be some plans for getting us out which are worse than others.

Most of the objections I have seen to Trump's Syria decision have been opposed to the plan.
Most objection to the objections I have seen involve saying people should just accept this plan because the goal is a good goal.
So, most of the objections (that I have seen) to the objections to Trump Syria decision are straw men who address only the goal rather than the plan.
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What makes you think Trump doesn't have a plan?

You don't expect him to tell you what it is, do you?
 
Mycroft said:
What makes you think Trump doesn't have a plan?
You don't expect him to tell you what it is, do you?
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I don't think I actually said that Trump lacks a plan.
[ That was Pelosi, iirc. I can see why you confuse the two of us one for the other — we look a lot alike. ]

I pointed out that objecting to Trump's plan is not the same as objecting to what Trumpco customers are saying Trump's goal is.
[ I think Trump has to have a plan before someone can object to it. ymmv ]
Most of the objections I have seen to Trump's Syria decision have been opposed to the plan.
Most objection to the objections I have seen involve saying people should just accept this plan because the goal is a good goal.
So, most of the objections (that I have seen) to the objections to Trump Syria decision are straw men who address only the goal rather than the plan.
 
Rexedgar said:
Crack a newspaper or a few history books, or just google. Your posts make little sense....
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Based on my prior exchanges with said poster, I think you and I share a sentiment.

Can we agree on the word nutjob to describe someone who, in their own mind, makes sense and in reality routinely rambles nonsensically?
 
Mycroft said:
What makes you think Trump doesn't have a plan?
Trump hasn’t had a plan for three years.........
You don't expect him to tell you what it is, do you?
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*****
 
Mycroft said:
So...do you want Trump to move those 50 soldiers back? Or do you want him to increase the number?

Do you seriously want the US to get into a shooting war with Turkey? A "NATO ally"?

Or would you rather we just stay out of it and let Turkey, Syria, Russia...and any other country who wants a piece of the action...duke it out?

I'll go with the latter choice.
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Sorry, after Trump promised to protect them, you abandoning them isn't "staying out of it". It's picking a side. You don't get to stay out of it. You either help them, as you promised, or you have their blood on your hands. One or the other, I'm afraid. This will bother some Americans...but don't worry, only the decent ones.
 
Rexedgar said:
*****
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Oh...Trump hasn't had a plan for three years...yet somehow he has succeeded in removing ISIS and getting our troops out of the briar patch.

Sounds to me like you don't know what you are talking about.
 
Mycroft said:
Oh...Trump hasn't had a plan for three years...yet somehow he has succeeded in removing ISIS and getting our troops out of the briar patch.
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The Kurds and US forces were in the process of getting rid ofISIS by the time Trump took office. But the Trumpcult will give Dear Leader credit as if he personally led the troops on the battlefield.
 
Geoist said:
He mentioned the PKK as worse than ISIS. It was his excuse for kowtowing to Erdogan.
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By that same token, I guess you could also lump, for example, Gabbert with all the other democrat hopefuls for president?

No. The PKK is a fundamental splinter of the Kurds unless you think all Kurds are fundamental.
 
Mycroft said:
No problem. They can keep on enjoying ever increasing sanctions.
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