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Chicago teachers striking in nation's 3rd largest district

haymarket said:
Like in many areas of high need from science and math to qualified shop teachers and special education fields across the board.

As for your school district, if you could please describe it that would help. Let us also remember your own school district is but one of tens and tens of thousands.
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High school rape counselors are in high demand.
 
Obscurity said:
401k simply enrich investment bankers and are entirely too fickle, based strictly on the whims, in our current case, of the twitter mindset of our POTUS.

The stock market is a gigantic gambling scheme that has made addicts out of too many conservatives.
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No leftist addicts though, right?

You are so jaded.
 
OrphanSlug said:
I am having a hard time finding the details of the dispute, sources vary on exactly what that is.

But, it appears the Chicago Teachers Union is rejecting a 16-24% pay raise over five years, a target for increased school nurses and assistants over that same period, future target teacher to class size just beyond that period, and something related to accommodations for homeless students (cannot find much details on that one.)

In the balance is a tax issue with property valuations falling.

Ultimately what we are talking about is what usually happens to Chicago (and Illinois as a whole,) the burden wanting to be shifted on to the tax payer is becoming overwhelming to the point that too much of the city revenue is headed towards already committed to pension plans.

In this case we are seeing what I have been complaining about with public sector unions being able to extort the tax payer via governance into conditions that cause future fiscal issues for someone else in city (or state) leadership to deal with.

Should teachers get more and have better conditions? Probably, but I doubt the fiscal condition of the city can handle that without doing what public sector unions generally want... send the bill to the taxpayer.

Info came from the following sources:
Column: The Chicago teachers strike and property taxpayers and the road to serfdom - Chicago Tribune
Chicago Teachers Strike: Union teachers to picket for 2nd day with rally, march planned; CPS classes remain canceled | abc7chicago.com
School Canceled For Friday; No Deal As Teachers’ Strike Continues – CBS Chicago
Chicago teachers’ strike, salary demands ignore what Chicagoans can afford
Chicago teachers go on strike: Here'''s what they want | Fox Business
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Bingo! You understand and explain the issue perfectly.
 
OrphanSlug said:
I am having a hard time finding the details of the dispute, sources vary on exactly what that is.

But, it appears the Chicago Teachers Union is rejecting a 16-24% pay raise over five years, a target for increased school nurses and assistants over that same period, future target teacher to class size just beyond that period, and something related to accommodations for homeless students (cannot find much details on that one.)

In the balance is a tax issue with property valuations falling.

Ultimately what we are talking about is what usually happens to Chicago (and Illinois as a whole,) the burden wanting to be shifted on to the tax payer is becoming overwhelming to the point that too much of the city revenue is headed towards already committed to pension plans.

In this case we are seeing what I have been complaining about with public sector unions being able to extort the tax payer via governance into conditions that cause future fiscal issues for someone else in city (or state) leadership to deal with.

Should teachers get more and have better conditions? Probably, but I doubt the fiscal condition of the city can handle that without doing what public sector unions generally want... send the bill to the taxpayer.

Info came from the following sources:
Column: The Chicago teachers strike and property taxpayers and the road to serfdom - Chicago Tribune
Chicago Teachers Strike: Union teachers to picket for 2nd day with rally, march planned; CPS classes remain canceled | abc7chicago.com
School Canceled For Friday; No Deal As Teachers’ Strike Continues – CBS Chicago
Chicago teachers’ strike, salary demands ignore what Chicagoans can afford
Chicago teachers go on strike: Here'''s what they want | Fox Business
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Such facts have no place in discussing this very emotional issue - shut up and just pay those heroic teachers whatever they think is "fair". ;)
 
trixare4kids said:
No leftist addicts though, right?

You are so jaded.
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Oh there are some leftists addicted for sure. But you dont hear anti market rhetoric from the right wing like you do the left. I have no stomach for economic exploitation
 
haymarket said:
If you want to save money why don't you go to the place in education where a lot of it is spent on high salaries but they educated no children?

and this will document and prove what I have been saying about the fallacy of comparing other big city school districts in salaries instead of comparing them to surrounding suburbs in the same state

Are Chicago Public School teachers among the nation’s highest paid? | PolitiFact Illinois



In 33 years of teaching in Detroit I saw lots and lots and lots of fellow teachers jump to the suburbs for higher paying jobs. I never saw a single teacher come from some other big city in a different part of the country to teach for a few more dollars. Not a one.
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So CPS is the 35th highest compensated out more then 800 school districts and you think that is a sign that CPS teachers are not being paid well. Not sure your link makes the argument you think it does.
 
braindrain said:
So CPS is the 35th highest compensated out more then 800 school districts and you think that is a sign that CPS teachers are not being paid well. Not sure your link makes the argument you think it does.
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What 800 districts?
 
haymarket said:
What 800 districts?
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From the part of your link that you quoted.

Here let me repost it for you.

Chicago Public Schools came out 109th of the state’s more than 800 school districts based on average teacher pay alone. Including bonuses, health and pension benefits, its ranking rose somewhat. But it still trailed 34 other districts
 
braindrain said:
From the part of your link that you quoted.

Here let me repost it for you.

Chicago Public Schools came out 109th of the state’s more than 800 school districts based on average teacher pay alone. Including bonuses, health and pension benefits, its ranking rose somewhat. But it still trailed 34 other districts
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Given the challenges for teachers there, this ranking seems awfully low.
 
HenryChinaski said:
Well yeah, if you want to insure that they vote Republican, that’s a good course of action.
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If what the poster said that you responded to is true than that would have already happened right?

But instated, they vote majority democrat no?
 
haymarket said:
Oh you are devoid of emotion?!?!?!?!? You are a Mr. Spock clone?!?!?!?!?!
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Of course not

But it is you who brought it in when I was discussing facts

Did you notice that?
 
code1211 said:
With respect, our educators have created the system, created the plan, created the curriculum and are executing the system they have constructed.

The outcomes are falling measured against the rest of the world since 1970.

If the system, plan and execution do not produce a superior outcome, who do you suggest be blamed if not the creators of the system, plan and execution?

Who else could possibly be responsible?
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Citizens elect the school board members who make school policy for curriculum, texts, tests, the school calendar, teaching days, school management and maintenance, and numbers of support staff. The school board members hire the superintendent and the principals that carry out these policies. The superintendent and principals hire the teachers but the school board has ultimate approval. The state controls the pensions of teachers.

Teachers through their union have the right to bargain about salary, starting and ending days of the school year but not the number of days, sick leave, whether or not health insurance is part of their pay, divisions in the pay scale, and how salary is distributed.

They do not have any say in policy, curriculum, texts, tests, work days, work hours, class size, discipline policy, support personnel, or pensions.

If you don't think education in your city or town is going well place the blame where it belongs, on the school boards you elected.
 
Bodhisattva said:
As a high school teacher I can tell you that you should not feel sorry about teacher pay...
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We work about 3/4 of the year that most people do.
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BINGO!
If not less

I have yet to hear a teacher complain about all the time they have off

Its always more pay, less students, more social workers, more nurses, more benefits

They already have "free" childcare

Ask me how(wink)
 
Helix said:
Compensation generally includes salary and benefits. Also, as I said, class sizes and a move away from constant cookie cutter testing.
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No argument there. However, it did not address the topic of the question.

There was an idea expressed that higher compensation paid to teachers would created better educational outcomes produced by teachers.

I was asking about the compensation paid to teachers in private and parochial schools within the US. Also about the compensation paid to teachers of more successful systems internationally.

In a discussion similar to this one a few years back, the compensation of the teachers at US private and parochial schools was much lower than their public school peers, but the produced educational outcomes were superior.

Asserting that better compensation produces better educational outcomes is not supported by real world data from the US.
 
Luther said:
Over qualified custodian(LOL)

I have a lot of time to think about anything else but what i'm doing(wink)
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I am glad you are employed. That is a good thing in and of itself. Good custodians are worth their weight in gold.

However, you do not teach kids or serve as an administrator in the schools. So your knowledge is very narrow and extremely limited.
 
haymarket said:
I am glad you are employed. That is a good thing in and of itself. Good custodians are worth their weight in gold.

However, you do not teach kids or serve as an administrator in the schools. So your knowledge is very narrow and extremely limited.
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However, you do not teach kids or serve as an administrator in the schools. So your knowledge is very narrow and extremely limited
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Not true

I have heard and know of all the teachers concerns

Ground zero baby


 
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OlNate said:
Help me out a bit - centralization seems to be a big topic at first glance, looking for it in a nutshell. Is it the centralization of curriculum alone, or is it tax pooling as well?
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My post was dripping with sarcasm. Sorry that I was not more direct. I'm of the "school" that teaches that all decisions should occur as close to the action as possible. "Pushed down" from the "top".

Centralization is the bane of improving quality in most applications involving human interaction.

By definition, centralization reduces person to person interaction. In my experience, the most effective educational experiences I've been involved with require person to person interaction.

Our educational system needs to be based on and infused with an approach that removes all factors that stand in the way of the kind of interaction that promotes better outcomes individually.

Better individual outcomes will eventually roll to better outcomes overall. Those better outcomes will not produce cookie cutter results. They will allow growth by the students in the areas dear to the individual students.

Mathematicians will rise as well as violinists, quarterbacks and ballerinas. There are many flowers in a garden. Treating them all the same way will kill half of them. Centralization is treating them all the same way.

In my personal case, you can "teach" me chemistry until the day I die and I will never learn it. You can work hard to hide poetry from me and I will seek it out and love it.

Anyway, that's curriculum. Regarding funding, let the parents determine what's best for their kids. I "feel" that the majority of parents will have the well being of their children woven into their decisions. I could be wrong.
 
HenryChinaski said:
Charter schools exist for profit that benefits a few, that's it. They come in with their own money and still take public funds. People put their kids in charter schools because the facilities are nicer. They have books, working copiers etc. They're a scam that's set up to enrich a minority of people.
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What are the educational outcomes?
 
Luther said:
Not true

I have heard and know of all the teachers concerns

Ground zero baby
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A little knowledge is very dangerous. Your own self inflated sense of importance seems to prove this adage. The reality is you do not teach kids anything and you do not administer any programs that involve learning. You clean toilets and mop floors. I do not mean this as an insult and do not take it that way, its just what custodians in any building do. I am sure the custodian on the floor where the Chairman of General Motors has her office also feels they are on ground zero too. They know next to nothing about what it takes to make a good product and achieve financial success in the car business.

I taught for 33 years. I cannot think of a single time I shared my concerns about education of the students with the custodian. Not once.
 
haymarket said:
A little knowledge is very dangerous. Your own self inflated sense of importance seems to prove this adage. The reality is you do not teach kids anything and you do not administer any programs that involve learning. You clean toilets and mop floors. I do not mean this as an insult and do not take it that way, its just what custodians in any building do. I am sure the custodian on the floor where the Chairman of General Motors has her office also feels they are on ground zero too. They know next to nothing about what it takes to make a good product and achieve financial success in the car business.

I taught for 33 years. I cannot think of a single time I shared my concerns about education of the students with the custodian. Not once.
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A little knowledge is very dangerous.
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No, a lot of knowledge is dangerous

The reality is you do not teach kids anything and you do not administer any programs that involve learning.
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Again, I have heard teachers concerns about that going on my 16th year. I have heard all your concerns

Yep


 
Luther said:
No, a lot of knowledge is dangerous
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A truly jaw dropping statement especially when the person who cleans the toilets thinks it qualifies them to wax poetically about school finance and teacher salaries.

I wonder if the person who cleans the toilets at Yankee Stadium thinks it qualifies them to pontificate about next years payroll and how it is best allocated and if management feels their opinion is important and vital?
 
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code1211 said:
No argument there. However, it did not address the topic of the question.

There was an idea expressed that higher compensation paid to teachers would created better educational outcomes produced by teachers.

I was asking about the compensation paid to teachers in private and parochial schools within the US. Also about the compensation paid to teachers of more successful systems internationally.

In a discussion similar to this one a few years back, the compensation of the teachers at US private and parochial schools was much lower than their public school peers, but the produced educational outcomes were superior.

Asserting that better compensation produces better educational outcomes is not supported by real world data from the US.
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As bootlickers in overpaid CEO threads love to point out, if you want the best people, you have to compensate them fairly. Unlike the bootlicker threads, no one is arguing to compensate teachers obscenely.
 
OrphanSlug said:
But, it appears the Chicago Teachers Union is rejecting a 16-24% pay raise over five years, a target for increased school nurses and assistants over that same period, future target teacher to class size just beyond that period, and something related to accommodations for homeless students (cannot find much details on that one.)

In the balance is a tax issue with property valuations falling.

Ultimately what we are talking about is what usually happens to Chicago (and Illinois as a whole,) the burden wanting to be shifted on to the tax payer is becoming overwhelming to the point that too much of the city revenue is headed towards already committed to pension plans.

In this case we are seeing what I have been complaining about with public sector unions being able to extort the tax payer via governance into conditions that cause future fiscal issues for someone else in city (or state) leadership to deal with.

Should teachers get more and have better conditions? Probably, but I doubt the fiscal condition of the city can handle that without doing what public sector unions generally want... send the bill to the taxpayer.

Here'''s what they want | Fox Business[/url]
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Fox Business gives the anti-union interpretation of the issue.

*A 16 to 24% raise over 5 years is a very big raise and no municipality offers that kind of money unless they know the pay is way too low and teachers are leaving.
*Offering a "target"for nurses and support staff is not a legally binding offer. And as evidenced by the lack of this personnel over the years the city will not live up to it's target promise. If it's not in writing it doesn't get done.
*Making the teachers store, keep track of medications, time of administration and giving the medications is a disaster waiting to happen. Each school needs a full time nurse.
*Reduction of class size is promised but not written into the contract. If it's not written in the contract it doesn't get done.
*Pensions are controlled by the state. The reason they are in trouble is because the state keeps taking money out of the pension funds, using it for something else, never replacing it then raising taxes to pay for pensions when they come due. The pension crisis is due to mismanagement not to teachers pensions.
 
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