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Chicago teachers striking in nation's 3rd largest district

aociswundumho said:
I don't understand why liberal cities like Chicago get in situations like this. The answer is simple and part of the leftist creed: just keep raising taxes to whatever level is necessary.
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Blue cities have problems as they grow.

Too much socialism.
 
Obscurity said:
And the rightist scat line is "cut taxes, de-regulate!" You just want the churches to indoctrinate everyone by being the sole arbiter of "charity" and "education."
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As usual, nothing you wrote here is relevant to the post you responded to.

So tell us, do you believe taxes are too low in Chicago and should be raised in order to pay for the demands of public unions?
 
Obscurity said:
You're misinformed. My wife USED to create her curriculum. Now it's dictated by the administration, of course, to ensure the school maximizes standardized test scores so they are "rewarded" with federal funds.

No, educators are not always involved in these discussions. It's usually UNION reps and administrators, along with elected officials. Teachers are demonized by the new radical right wing who despise intellectuals and the educated.

The system doesn't produce a superior outcome because we don't educate to the child, we educate to the test.

You need to do some learning.
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So how is throwing more money into a broken system going to fix it? All that does is prolong the agony until it its a proper fix.
 
jimbo said:
Possibly the reason we're 17th in the world is that those teachers asking for more money rank 95th in the world.
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What quality about our teachers ranks them at the 95th spot?
 
code1211 said:
And yet the 401K is the greatest savings device available to the common man going today.

If Social Security was based on a 401k model that just matched the growth of the DJIA, everyone would have a richer retirement and SS would be cost free to the Feds actually delivering tax revenue instead of payment liability.
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I would have retired already if all the money I put into SS since 1970 went into a 401k instead.
 
ocean515 said:
I remember when their pensions bankrupted cities. Still doing it.

With Illinois in a real bind financially, people with money leaving the state, and Chicago having trouble balancing the books, how are the teachers demands going to be met?
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I'm vested in a public pension that is solvent. The Republicans in my state are still trying to take it. This is because they are ****ing assholes.
 
ocean515 said:
I remember when their pensions bankrupted cities. Still doing it.

With Illinois in a real bind financially, people with money leaving the state, and Chicago having trouble balancing the books, how are the teachers demands going to be met?
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That's what they don't get. There is no more money available for this. Not without cutting Fire services, Police, or some other high value spending.

My state has already stripped the police pretty good paying teachers more.
 
Obscurity said:
And one more incident of 2008 and you'd be wrong. The tie of retirement investment to gambling outcomes is inhumane. I don't agree with 401K OR Pensions, but you wouldn't know that, because you assume of me I want strictly pensions.

I'd like to see the banks stop being ****s and start offering REAL returns on savings, not the paltry garbage rates they offer now.
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What you'd like and what is real are apparently different things.

The DJIA does crash on occasion. If a person retired at the pit of the recession, his investments following the DJIA would have recovered to par by about 2013. Sooner without Obama policies.

The average 401K after SS level contributions over 45 years to that point would have been in the $2 million range. 4 years of withdrawals while it grew back would have been sustainable.

The prudent worker would have also have had another 401K, AS MOST PEOPLE DO NOW, in addition to the SS funds.
 
Obscurity said:
You're misinformed. My wife USED to create her curriculum. Now it's dictated by the administration, of course, to ensure the school maximizes standardized test scores so they are "rewarded" with federal funds.

No, educators are not always involved in these discussions. It's usually UNION reps and administrators, along with elected officials. Teachers are demonized by the new radical right wing who despise intellectuals and the educated.

The system doesn't produce a superior outcome because we don't educate to the child, we educate to the test.

You need to do some learning.
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So it seems one answer is to get the feds out of education. A lot of the problems started with the creation of the Department of Education.

Pardon, sir. but don't those unions supposedly represent the teachers? Seems like that is a teacher problem to fix.

You don't make your case by claiming that a part of the problem is that the right as a group are West Va rubes who made it to 2nd grade before their teeth fell out. There are plenty of right wing with IQ's far higher than the average teacher, and college degrees,
 
code1211 said:
So now you assert that teachers are just crank turners with no critical input into the system, no creative suggestions sought from them and no ability to impact the system in which they labor?

Seems like we can save a bunch of money replacing them with cardboard placards, centralized broadcasts and in-room classroom disciplinarians.

We are getting to the root of the problem.
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The root of the problem isn't teachers.

It's state testing and mandates from elected officials removed from the education process, and administrators hinging on funds from "good" scores for their district with regard to how students score on tests.

It's not the teachers. Then again, you'll try and twist it that way.
 
aociswundumho said:
As usual, nothing you wrote here is relevant to the post you responded to.

So tell us, do you believe taxes are too low in Chicago and should be raised in order to pay for the demands of public unions?
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Nothing you write here is relevant to anything at all, so it should be unsurprising that no one takes your commentary seriously.
 
code1211 said:
What quality about our teachers ranks them at the 95th spot?
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I have no idea, I didn't say there was. Hence the use of the word possibly. I'm saying it's something to look at.
 
Lord of Planar said:
Blue cities have problems as they grow.

Too much socialism.
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Your meaningless one-liner talking point is just that, meaningless and a talking point. The problem is corrupt bureaucrats trying filter funds away from public education and funnel it into for-profit charter schools. These teachers are struggling with the bare tools that they have. They could easily give up and go get jobs teaching wealthy public school kids in highland park for way more money, but they don’t because that’s not what teachers do. This is also direct from my colleague regarding the situation here.
Let's look at one small thing that is so wildly different than when we were in school as to boggle the mind with relentless data obsession...

The Area (the district is broken into several levels of bureaucracy) came up with another level of assessment, aka testing, for Samantha to administer. This is on top of all the other high-stakes tests that happen throughout the year. But this is a five-week assessment. Every five-weeks, she has to come up with a test to adminster, and has to supply the administration that test before she gives it. She has to differentiate the questions according to the small groups she had to identify based on academic performance - high, average, low. Each of the questions for each of the groups has to be explicity tied to Common Core standards, and for each portion of each question she has to type out which standard(s) that question is addressing. Do this for all groups. So the test is administered, and then she has to enter the grades. But it's more than just putting an A or C or whatnot, it's the number grade, and then break that out according to each answer and which portion of the answer was not done correctly, and if any portions of any standards were achieved. Then do that for every question for every group. Then have a meeting with administration for a "data dive" about the results and get admonished because a kid that couldn't recognize letters when they showed up in your 3rd grade class wasn't reading at a 3rd grade level.

Now do this every five weeks. On top of everything else...
#KnowYourTeachers
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Obscurity said:
Blah blah blah.

TEACHERS have no say, NONE, on what tests they are forced to educate to.

You're out of your element, as I expected, hence your normal right wing talking points that paints in vast generalizations and ignores reality.

You're outmatched and outmanned. Go back to the shadows.
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Pontius Pilate. Go wash your hands

You complain endlessly, bemoan your plight, express your outrage, claim utter incapability to change anything or help and then go on to blame others for not doing what you refuse to do.

You must be a Liberal. Solutions are unimportant as long as you can be hard hit victims with no hope. If you want change, make change. If you want a crying towel, see if you can beg for one.

You have given up and seem to like it that way. Why not work for change?
 
Helix said:
I'm vested in a public pension that is solvent. The Republicans in my state are still trying to take it. This is because they are ****ing assholes.
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I don't know about your state, but in states like California and Illinois, the public employee pension plans are crushing the citizens who have to make up the shortfall.

Cities have filed for bankruptcy.

But back to the real question, where are they going to find the money in Illinois, and specifically in Chicago, to meet the teachers demands?
 
jimbo said:
So it seems one answer is to get the feds out of education. A lot of the problems started with the creation of the Department of Education.

Pardon, sir. but don't those unions supposedly represent the teachers? Seems like that is a teacher problem to fix.

You don't make your case by claiming that a part of the problem is that the right as a group are West Va rubes who made it to 2nd grade before their teeth fell out. There are plenty of right wing with IQ's far higher than the average teacher, and college degrees,
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Bunch of trash replies.

My answer is for EDUCATORS to create their curriculum, for EDUCATORS to decide class size. After all, each student is different and learns at a different pace and in a different fashion.

Instead your answer is what, exactly? Deregulate, charters?

That's garbage. Charters are vampiric cannibals who siphon funds from desperate schools and don't provide much value, at all.

I spare no empathy for cannibalistic right wingers who are sadistic against themselves.
 
code1211 said:
Pontius Pilate. Go wash your hands

You complain endlessly, bemoan your plight, express your outrage, claim utter incapability to change anything or help and then go on to blame others for not doing what you refuse to do.

You must be a Liberal. Solutions are unimportant as long as you can be hard hit victims with no hope. If you want change, make change. If you want a crying towel, see if you can beg for one.

You have given up and seem to like it that way. Why not work for change?
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And of course, there it is; the ignorant derision of a sneering elitist mindset.

You completely ignore the reality here. You ignore how much the state mandates. This arbitrary regurgitation of fox news talking points means only one thing - You don't have a counter, at all. You just have sound bytes that aren't relevant.

I've offered solutions. You've offered derision. Dismissed.
 
Lord of Planar said:
I would have retired already if all the money I put into SS since 1970 went into a 401k instead.
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I did a calculation for this board once. The Social Security paid from my first "real" job first year would have grown to $130,000 by the time of retirement. The other 39 years would have piled on top of that.

Social Security payments are delivering about a fourth of what the payments would have been under a 401K model.
 
Lord of Planar said:
That's what they don't get. There is no more money available for this. Not without cutting Fire services, Police, or some other high value spending.

My state has already stripped the police pretty good paying teachers more.
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I don't know the intimate details about Illinois and specifically Chicago, but I know the problems are similar to what California is struggling with.

And yes, stripping critical services, even closing libraries, has been part of the effort to pay for the cost of education.

What I never hear about is an effort to cut the cost of administrators. In California, the cost of the bureaucracy overseeing public education is staggering. Reducing that burden doesn't seem to ever be in the conversation.
 
ocean515 said:
I don't know about your state, but in states like California and Illinois, the public employee pension plans are crushing the citizens who have to make up the shortfall.

Cities have filed for bankruptcy.

But back to the real question, where are they going to find the money in Illinois, and specifically in Chicago, to meet the teachers demands?
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If you are confused, solvent means fully funded. As for paying teachers well and reducing class sizes, there always seems to be enough money for wars and bailing out the banksters whenever they decide to wreck the economy. We can pay our teachers fairly.
 
Obscurity said:
The root of the problem isn't teachers.

It's state testing and mandates from elected officials removed from the education process, and administrators hinging on funds from "good" scores for their district with regard to how students score on tests.

It's not the teachers. Then again, you'll try and twist it that way.
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So , just to assure I'm understanding your assertion in this, you are saying that the teachers have absolutely no input into any part of our educational process.

Is that REALLY your nugget in this discussion?
 
code1211 said:
So , just to assure I'm understanding your assertion in this, you are saying that the teachers have absolutely no input into any part of our educational process.

Is that REALLY your nugget in this discussion?
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Educators have no input on state testing, which mandates how teachers educate. Does that make it easy for you? The administration dictates to educators what they can do; some have some wiggle room, but it's not enough.
 
ocean515 said:
I don't know about your state, but in states like California and Illinois, the public employee pension plans are crushing the citizens who have to make up the shortfall.

Cities have filed for bankruptcy.

But back to the real question, where are they going to find the money in Illinois, and specifically in Chicago, to meet the teachers demands?
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CPS teachers have given up their SS in place of a pension. The CPS would be in much better shape if TIF funds were being utilized for essentials like support services, books and basic classroom tools instead of building WinTrust arena for DePaul University and fancy condo developments on the near north side for the uppercrust.
 
Helix said:
If you are confused, solvent means fully funded. As for paying teachers well and reducing class sizes, there always seems to be enough money for wars and bailing out the banksters whenever they decide to wreck the economy. We can pay our teachers fairly.
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I'm not confused. I understand what solvent means. These are public employee pension plans. Pretty hard to become insolvent, so perhaps you're confused about that.

I don't believe Illinois, or Chicago, have much involvement in funding the military, or bailing out banks.

Since wars and bailing out banksters has nothing to do with teachers pay, where are they going to find the money the Chicago teachers are demanding?
 
Obscurity said:
Bunch of trash replies.

My answer is for EDUCATORS to create their curriculum, for EDUCATORS to decide class size. After all, each student is different and learns at a different pace and in a different fashion.

Instead your answer is what, exactly? Deregulate, charters?

That's garbage. Charters are vampiric cannibals who siphon funds from desperate schools and don't provide much value, at all.

I spare no empathy for cannibalistic right wingers who are sadistic against themselves.
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I just moved in to a new neighborhood. The children next door are home-schooled, kind of...

There is a consortium of parents who all have kids and they share the educational responsibility for the gang of kids, looks like about 12 kids. There is a Certified teacher that oversees the curriculum and helps the parents.

Do you seriously assert that these concerned parents, working hard on behalf of the children they love, are less concerned with their children than over worked teachers in less than ideal circumstances?

C'mon, man!

Innovation is a search for a better way. Those who have given up and quit are rarely innovative.
 
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