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Fact check: Trump says again that Americans need ID to buy groceries. They still don't

We can change our politicians every election cycle
Thus, no need for term limits
We do elect the politicians we deserve

Yes, a need for term limits, while you can change your politicians every election cycle is, people as a whole, are lazy, as long as the person who is there, didn't screw up royally, or cause their lives to change, they will vote them in REGARDLESS of what they actually do.

There's too much money to be made as a politician these days.
 
Take the hyperbole out of the message, and what do you have? You NEED ID to do most things in the U.S. "drink, buy cigarettes, drive, purchase a gun, etc, etc" The message is why wouldn't you need an ID for something as important as voting, when you need one for something insignificant as buying cigarettes?

Again, focuse on the message, not the hyperbole.

I was out shopping today. I bought groceries and cigarettes, then met my husband and one of his customers for a glass of wine.

I didn't need to provide an ID for any of those things.
 
Not understanding the bolded, I said if you disregard the hyperbole and focus on the message, you will do just fine.

As far as your last paragraphs, this started BEFORE he won, the day he announced, it started. Trump doesn't care about being accurate verbally, he cares that the message is coming across, ie, ids for groceries, thousands of muslims on 9/11, mexico sending bad people, etc.

To him hyperbole is a tool to be used to send the message, and the people whose job it is to report....absolutely went bat**** crazy over the hyperbole, and ignored the actual messages, and it's been a fight ever since.

As far as assume it's a lie and check it out for yourselves, dude, that should be a given when talking to ANY POLITICIAN, at ANY TIME IN HISTORY.

I'm not demanding anything, I am telling you if you get bogged down in fighting hyperbole, 2016 is going to happen again.

It's not hyperbole to claim that there were e.g. 3-5 million ILLEGAL votes in 2016, and that Democrats are signing up illegal immigrants to vote and that's why he lost the popular vote. That's not harmless fun. Those are serious allegations and they undermine confidence in elections, in all kinds of states trying to run clean elections, and they are LIES.

But by all means, make excuses for every one of the lies, the big ones and the little ones and the ones he makes every time he gives a public address. It's what we have come to expect from our Trump supporters. We're in a post-truth era, and the bar for the President isn't quite as high as some stupid and mean, bitter drunk at the end of your nearest bar.
 
If you want to be blind and biased about it,

But instead of saying, yes to voter ID laws, and then finding a way to get everyone ID, why do Democrats insist on just shutting down the conversation?

Does it not make sense, that you should have to show ID to vote? If so, then the issue is getting people IDs, not the actually voter ID laws right?

The reason the democrats are in opposition is at least twofold: 1- GOP has admitted at various times that they push for these laws to help them win. Note that they appeared in all the states covered by the Voting Rights act (plus GOP states) shortly after the Supremes invalidated portions of the Act. What a surprise! 2- The commission set up to look at this found nothing, despite GOP members keeping democrats in the dark during part of their proceedings. Add to that the extreme gerrymandering the GOP engaged in in places like North Carolina, that in some jurisdictions the ID laws don't allow for student ID, for example, and it is pretty easy to figure that republicans are not really concerned about the integrity of the elections. In my view, the GOP sees demographics working against them. They might respond by highlighting minorities in the party or by appealing to socially conservative Hispanics and even Muslims, which is ok. They also respond by more than normal gerrymandering mischief and by trying to limit the franchise, which is not.

As I said, a partisan solution to a non-existent problem. We have done fine without voter ID for generations.
 
Meanwhile ignoring the multiple incidents of voter fraud with mail in ballots such as was recently confirmed by the Republicans fraud committed in North Carolina

Which of course voter ID would have done nothing to prevent.
 
Nobody call the cops. I just bought chicken salad at Kroger with no ID.
 
Seriously?

Ok fine, you need an ID to work, drive, go to school, get into a government secured building, buy a car, buy a house, buy a goddamn scooter, buy a gun, hunt, fish, drive a boat, fly a plane etc,

I can keep going if you need to....but are you freaking serious?

And there are still a ton more things you do not need a license for. You claimed you needed it for "most" things, and that simply isn't true.


Of course, it's all beside the point since every time they've looked into voter fraud, they find just about nothing and what they find is in local elections. ie, Bush DOJ spends 5 years trying to back up GOP claims about it and comes up with not even 150 cases (that only ended up with 87 convictions. 87!)

In 5-Year Effort, Scant Evidence of Voter Fraud - The New York Times



And where are all the stories about people who showed up to vote but were told they couldn't because their name was already crossed off the voter roll? Where? I never see them. Where are all the threads by people pushing the "voter fraud" fraud citing actual convictions of people all around the country? Nowhere. They don't exist. They don't exist.

What do I recall hearing about? Small stuff like some Trumpist getting busted voting twice in order to counter what that idiot thought was vote fraud on the other side. Bigger stuff like GOP ballot-filling games in.....I want to say SC or NC.




But back to your examples:

- You need more than a driver's license to buy a gun, even more to carry in public. FID for in-home and in-place-of-business (at least in MA), LTC for public.
- You need more than a driver's license to fly a plane.
- You need more than a driver's license to fish (depending on where; there are plenty of places you don't need any license that I've ever heard of)
- You need more than a driver's license hunt
- You need more than a driver's license to "drive a boat"
- You need more than a driver's license to do all sorts of the things you mentioned. What you need depends on the thing, because duh of course it does. But you definitely don't need it to buy groceries or to do "most" of the things that Americans do.
 
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Would you object if the Federal government were to provide photographic identifications free of charge to all citizens, Deuce?


The problem will be that the Republicans will likely make it as difficult as possible for anyone with non-white skin to get the ID. It might be "free", but if people have to miss a day's work to get it, a lot of people won't be able to afford that. Or they will put up other barriers.

Republicans haven't relied on the racist Southern Strategy for well over 1/2 a century because they want to treat everyone fairly..


Racial Disparities in Voting Wait Times:
Evidence from Smartphone Data
 
Requiring an ID is not restricting it.

Once you make it a requirement, the next process is how to ensure everyone has one/can get one.....

One does not preclude the other.

We know from history the GOP does the opposite of that. Makes it a requirement, then makes it harder to get. It's the opposite of the good policy option, which is why of course there is so much opposition to them, and why the courts have struck down the worst of the strict ID laws.
 
Great, you fished out some extraordinary things some Democrats have said. Good job. Now, let's talk about quantity. What politician has said the most insane things and told the largest quantity of disgusting lies in history?

Anyone who doesn't answer "trump" is delusional!

Quantity? That sounds subjective. Do democrats agree with republican estimates of how often democrats lie? No, I think democrats have biased assessments of republicans just like republicans may have biased assessments of democrats.
 
I'm gonna go gangsta and not take my ID into The Walmart tonight.
 
It makes no difference no difference. My grocery store has two isles full of things that need ID to purchase if you are young looking

The argument that you need ID to do______________ (insert anything) is irrelevant because millions of registered voters didn't/don't have an ID that is on the approved list of strict photo ID states. So if a government issued photo ID that is not a college ID is actually REQUIRED to do ______, then millions of registered voters do not do those things.

The argument Trump and others are making is just dishonest at the core, because we know these things. 600k registered voters in TX, 200k in NC, etc. They all got by fine in their day to day lives without an ID now needed at the polls in those states.
 
Take the hyperbole out of the message, and what do you have? You NEED ID to do most things in the U.S. "drink, buy cigarettes, drive, purchase a gun, etc, etc" The message is why wouldn't you need an ID for something as important as voting, when you need one for something insignificant as buying cigarettes?

Again, focuse on the message, not the hyperbole.

When Republicans actually start to worry about the real threats to our voting system (Russia, Iran and other foreign actors) then we can talk about the faux threats. Its hard to take Republicans seriously when they rarely confront real issues but instead spend all their attention on things they substantially 'make up'.
 
Quantity? That sounds subjective. Do democrats agree with republican estimates of how often democrats lie? No, I think democrats have biased assessments of republicans just like republicans may have biased assessments of democrats.

Right. It sound like you've been seduced by trump's "great and unmatched wisdom". :roll:
 
I'm gonna go gangsta and not take my ID into The Walmart tonight.

Around here all the grocery stores take Apple Pay and I often leave my wallet at home or in the car. Just carry my phone. Walmart doesn't take it, so I need the credit card. About 3/4th of the time there I buy stuff for my elderly mother in law who is in assisted living, so I use her card and have never had anyone question why this man is using a card for "Dorothy." Never....
 
Would you object if the Federal government were to provide photographic identifications free of charge to all citizens, Deuce?

I'm not Deuce, but I'll say: with important caveats. It may seem odd that many do not actually have photo ID, especially to lawyers (I believe someone told me you were one, and I certainly am - appellate criminal defense, the most hopeless of the lot, but anyway....).

- Necessary documents for getting a license need to be free. There are fees for things like birth certificates, etc.
- Relatedly, outreach to people who hear about this offer to help them get documents if they suffer from some medical disability, etc., matter. Same for finances. If you're poor, you may not have a computer, even. Or you may. It depends. If I didn't have one, I'd have a hell of a time working out exactly who to call to get a copy of my birth certificate (do they even deliver phone books anymore?).
- Some vague set of things related to that outreach to the poor in more rural areas. A lot of America resembles third world countries much more than the "America" most of us think of; Alabama trailer parks, and backwoods TN. Etc.

The main thing with these kind of things is that it's a hell of a lot more of a problem than it would be to you or me for some poor person - especially rural - to gather the documents necessary to get an ID (and now/soon, a "Real ID"). You really might not guess it unless you talked to them, and since I focus on representing the indigent, well, I at least have some insight.




My main position is back on post #233, though: if it ain't broke, don't fix it. And every time the authorities go looking to see if there is a lot of voter fraud, they come up empty handed. We hear about registries with dead people on them, yes, but we hear about that because they cannot show us evidence of dead people voting in any meaningful number. There aren't even stories about X thousand people around the country reporting that they showed up to the voting booth only to get turned away because their name had already been crossed off the roll. It simply does not happen in any meaningful degree.

Why make a fuss if we can't prove the existence of the problem, but only things that might conceivably create a problem if X00,000 or X,000,000 people suddenly decided to risk years in federal "pound me in the ass prison" (cite: Office Space) just to cast one little fraudulent vote? Why bother?

I'd think the meaningful concern would be about who tallies/counts votes, whether it is an electronic system or a mixture or ...well, whatever. That's what you'd target if you wanted to push an election and were willing to go to jail to do it, right? Not your one or five votes....
 
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Good grief almost no one uses checks any longer.

I use checks quite a bit. I am 70 and have used them all my adult life. I only use them to buy things when the amount is more than 20$. For an amount under that I pay cash. It absolutely drives me crazy when I behind somebody at a store and some younger person pays for one or two small items with a credit card. Get a life already and learn what money is!!!!

Andy Rooney moment over. Thank you.
 
When Republicans actually start to worry about the real threats to our voting system (Russia, Iran and other foreign actors) then we can talk about the faux threats. Its hard to take Republicans seriously when they rarely confront real issues but instead spend all their attention on things they substantially 'make up'.

It's even worse that that because the actual known "voter" fraud is roughly 99% or so with absentee ballots. And the strict photo ID states don't mess with those ballots because, e.g., soldiers use them, and lots of republicans use them. So even if we just take the trivial problem of 'voter' fraud, the photo ID measures do a terrible, awful job addressing that problem.

And you didn't mention electronic voting. I swear, when I cast a vote I consider it suggestive. There is no audit, no paper trail, no way to know if the machines are counting my votes correctly, and if they are not, no way to check. So I vote but the machines are at least 10 years old and I know they are hackable by any half way competent 15 year old hacker, and I know the corrupt incompetents that run the elections in the county government. I hope the bipartisan staff below them do their checks, but have no way of knowing it.

More to the point, IMO, if a party (Democrat or Republican) or a foreign government or other bad actor wants to actually steal an election, affect the outcome, the LAST thing they'll think about is, "Hey let's get a bunch of illegal voters to go vote one by one and hope they don't get caught or sell their story for $100 to the first tabloid that they can think of." That's why the bussing stories are so pathetic. Whoever would agree to be bussed across state lines to vote illegally, commit a felony, is the kind of person who'd rat that out immediately for a joint or a hit of oxy, or a six pack of beer.

No, what they'd do is affect the vote tabulation at the machine level, or the count at the district/county state level. Or use bad data to purge 50,000 registered voters, etc. Things that one guy can impact 1000s or 10s of thousands of votes, and that one guy or small team CAN keep a secret.
 
Trump has said some silly things to be sure. Does that make him worse than other politicians who have done the same thing? He claimed he had large crowd sizes in rallies. Warren claimed to be a minority Native American. Blumenthal claimed to be a Vietnam veteran. Hillary claimed she dodged bullets in Bosnia. There isn't room here to post everything Biden has claimed. Are all politicians human and given to errors? Of course.

No, he says stupid and dangerous things.
 
I'm not Deuce, but I'll say: with important caveats. It may seem odd that many do not actually have photo ID, especially to lawyers (I believe someone told me you were one, and I certainly am - appellate criminal defense, the most hopeless of the lot, but anyway....).

- Necessary documents for getting a license need to be free. There are fees for things like birth certificates, etc.
- Relatedly, outreach to people who hear about this offer to help them get documents if they suffer from some medical disability, etc., matter. Same for finances. If you're poor, you may not have a computer, even. Or you may. It depends. If I didn't have one, I'd have a hell of a time working out exactly who to call to get a copy of my birth certificate (do they even deliver phone books anymore?).
- Some vague set of things related to that outreach to the poor in more rural areas. A lot of America resembles third world countries much more than the "America" most of us think of; Alabama trailer parks, and backwoods TN. Etc.

The main thing with these kind of things is that it's a hell of a lot more of a problem than it would be to you or me for some poor person - especially rural - to gather the documents necessary to get an ID (and now/soon, a "Real ID"). You really might not guess it unless you talked to them, and since I focus on representing the indigent, well, I at least have some insight.

That's a really big point. We all spend our lives on computers and I can get my BC from NY in a few minutes, because I have a computer and a credit card and just...order it (I assume - those docs are in our safe deposit box...). Well, what if you're poor and have neither. Lots of rural areas actually do not have internet, at all. My physician brother lives in one and he uses his mobile plan to use the internet at home.

My main position is back on post #233, though: if it ain't broke, don't fix it. And every time the authorities go looking to see if there is a lot of voter fraud, they come up empty handed. We hear about registries with dead people on them, yes, but we hear about that because they cannot show us evidence of dead people voting in any meaningful number. There aren't even stories about X thousand people around the country reporting that they showed up to the voting booth only to get turned away because their name had already been crossed off the roll. It simply does not happen in any meaningful degree.

Why make a fuss if we can't prove the existence of the problem, but only things that might conceivably create a problem if X00,000 or X,000,000 people suddenly decided to risk years in federal "pound me in the ass prison" (cite: Office Space) just to cast one little fraudulent vote? Why bother?

I'd think the meaningful concern would be about who tallies/counts votes, whether it is an electronic system or a mixture or ...well, whatever. That's what you'd target if you wanted to push an election and were willing to go to jail to do it, right? Not your one or five votes....

Seems obvious to me.... :peace
 
That's a really big point. We all spend our lives on computers and I can get my BC from NY in a few minutes, because I have a computer and a credit card and just...order it (I assume - those docs are in our safe deposit box...). Well, what if you're poor and have neither. Lots of rural areas actually do not have internet, at all. My physician brother lives in one and he uses his mobile plan to use the internet at home.

I was going to renew my license but I did not realize that if you got a passport within the last 6 months, you also need your birth certificate, among other things. At least here, and that isn't just Real ID. And I was renewing my passport right then. I ended up asking my parents if they still had my birth certificate tucked away somewhere, since they'd never given it to me. Great, they actually did have it tucked away. (As it turned out, I could renew a standard license with just the birth certificate and old driver's license, but still..... )

It didn't take me much time to find how I could get it. I have a computer, a good internet connection, and I'm not a moron. I'd just have to deal with NYC bureaucracy from afar using the computer and internet connection I pay for. And if I didn't have either, I'd have to work out who to call to find out what I needed, then travel there with the stuff I needed (possibly having to get other things), and if I had to work 2 full time jobs because I was poor in order to put food on the table this would quite literally have been impossible.

People of means ....well some of us get it. Some don't. There's a huge difference between not being rich but leaving reasonably comfortably enough - not in fear of every next bill - and being behind on bills, always, forever, and just barely treading water in a world that has no more ****s to give. And they really are there for forever, most of them, because you can't just go get a degree on top of two jobs.....not if you also have kids, etc. And if you don't? That's one hell of a struggle. I've spent most of a year sleeping only 4.5h a night on average (I actually tracked it - first year law school). I damn near cracked up. The center held for each of the two terms, but only just.




Still, I do have to reflect that if the GOP got its way, it would disenfranchise a good bit of its base in the short run. The Dems too, yes. But both. But still it would be disenfranchisement, and pointless at that.
 
I use checks quite a bit. I am 70 and have used them all my adult life. I only use them to buy things when the amount is more than 20$. For an amount under that I pay cash. It absolutely drives me crazy when I behind somebody at a store and some younger person pays for one or two small items with a credit card. Get a life already and learn what money is!!!!

Andy Rooney moment over. Thank you.

Clue: Debit Card.......oh and I am 65.
 
Yes, a need for term limits, while you can change your politicians every election cycle is, people as a whole, are lazy, as long as the person who is there, didn't screw up royally, or cause their lives to change, they will vote them in REGARDLESS of what they actually do.

There's too much money to be made as a politician these days.

then your position is we should not permit democrat election of incumbents
weird perspective
 
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