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Trump’s envoy to testify that ‘no quid pro quo’ came from Trump

Rexedgar said:
You have like 635 posts............:screwy
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I have discussions that are not a part of this thread. (I use that George Thorogood lyric all the time)
 
Athanasius68 said:
Look at what has happened-- we had the intelligence agencies driving a narrative that Trump had conspired with Russia.
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Through his actions, Trump was the one driving this narrative, whether it was firing Comey, or repeatedly lying about the Trump Tower meeting, or repeatedly beating up the FBI on his Twitter feed for no reason. He caused people to suspect he did something wrong.

We know that this is false, and it probably explains why
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We know only that Mueller could not prove the crime of conspiracy beyond a reasonable doubt. We also know that despite the fact that Mueller could not prove conspiracy, Trump still did many questionable things he should not have done.

Trump doesn't trust them.
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Trump is a thug and a crook. We know this because of the way he treated his subcontractors and the way he committed massive tax fraud. Trump just thinks he's above the law and wants the game rigged in his favor.

Now we have a CIA whistleblower who is driving this whole present issue.
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The problem with your argument is that the summary of the call transcript, Volker's testimony and collection of texts, and the testimony of various State Dept. and NSC officials, and Trump's own behavior are proving what the whistleblower said to be true.

The Democrats seem to want to focus on Trump; the Republicans on Obama. Maybe we are all missing the forest for the trees.
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Be specific. What is it that you want them to do, and what is it that you want Republicans to do?
 
Threegoofs said:
I have it on good authority that Infrastructure Week is going to happen again soon.
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What started out as an idea worthy of investment (we saw Roosevelt actually do the same thing to revive our economy in the 1930s), quickly fell to the side and is now just the latest distraction tool to avoid the actual issues.

Traditionally, the GOP has used abortion to avoid the job; and the DNC has used gun control to avoid the job. Both go back and forth, as if taking turns, to present the people a facade. Trump is notorious for using these tactics to avoid any and all personal pressure that he deserves. No matter the topic, he arbitrarily drops in "build the wall" Tweets and drops in the name "Clinton" here and there to remind his constituents that irrational hate is better than looking at any given issue in the moment. And the reason he uses derogatory and denigrating terms to describe people in his Tweets is that he knows that this behavior is delicious to his idiot voters. And the latest "do nothing Democrats" is yet another defensive term that is yet another lie. The publicly documented record clearly shows that Democrats have down far more legislation than Republicans have over the last two years.

The infrastructure thing is just another smokescreen, such as his kid's nothing idea to bring peace to the Middle East or Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan. One should not glorify a possible splinter within a rotted tree.
 
Athanasius68 said:
There has been an investigation into the origins of the Russia probe since early this year. A prosecutor has been assigned and a Grand Jury formed.
Was there anything illicit in the Obama Admin putting pressure on Ukraine to achieve an American objective? Beats me. That's what investigations are for. Its not even clear to what extent that policy as enunciated by Biden in his famous tape has to do with it.
But whether an investigation benefits Trump and harms Biden is of no relevance.
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An "American" objective is not the same thing as a "Trump" objective. You know this. What Trump was trying to do was absolutely a selfish act and it sought to harm American citizens for his personal political gain. To make this truth credible, one only needs to reflect on his firing a career ambassador to Ukraine for no real given reason, using an inexperienced ambassador for the EU that has nothing to do with Ukraine, and using a personal lawyer as a go between, who should have nothing to do with anything between a U.S. President and a foreign government. Even that hawkish idiot, Bolton, knows that Giuliani is a "hand grenade." He's the one that has consistently encouraged and supported Trump's personal obsession over this Ukraine crap. Why would Trump not use the established career diplomat to Ukraine and the State Department to reach an American objective? Because, obviously, it was a Trump objective, not an American objective. Trying to mix the two is FOX News spin. The American objective is to support Ukraine against Russia, not withhold money for logical reasons not given.

And isn't it funny how Trump & Co. have made a name for themselves denigrating everything Obama, yet periodically seek to borrow integrity from his actions? The man did the same thing when Mattis quit his Administration. Using Obama's actions with Ukraine, which involved the State Department and corresponded with all of Western Europe's governments, is clear desperation.

This Trump objective is made worse when this involves trying to create dirt from a widely debunked issue. And the Russia probe is a smokescreen. The Mueller inquiry was the investigation; and it was Trump himself that turned it into an attack upon himself. Along the way, despite "no collusion," Trump tried to kill the investigation. Must have been something. But why would Trump seek to launch an investigation in to the investigation that he tried to kill? It's more BS and conspiracy theory from a BS President who thrives on promoting conspiracy theories. Hold the man finally accountable already.
 
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Fletch said:
The reason Ive heard and that she said herself in her written statement was that Trump was told she was saying negative things about him. Would Trump fire someone for that do you think?
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That's because what you have "heard" comes from FOX News propaganda and lacks all the facts, thereby skewing the truth into BS. Remember those studies about FOX News I have shown you?

She, herself, was clear about having friction with Giuliani and his two foreign-born associates (Igor Fruman & Lev Parnas), who formerly gave money to a political action committee supporting Trump's campaign to purchase political influence (fraud) and was assisting Giuliani with his efforts to assist Trump with Ukraine for personal reasons (treachery). It was because of this friction that she was fired. The notion that she wasn't "loyal" to Trump is just more indictment.


Trump demands loyalty at all costs and this is exactly why his Cabinet has been a revolving door. And his staffers routinely spread rumors about Obama appointed professionals not being "loyal" as if loyalty to the country is supposed to come second. Yovanovitch is a victim of this trash, but were she not the ambassador to Ukraine, she would still be out there doing her job as she has always done. You are being obtuse, because you still really, really want to give the man the benefit of the doubt for whatever personal reasons you have. As I have stated enough times before, he does not deserve your loyalty. Your country does.
 
W_Heisenberg said:
Through his actions, Trump was the one driving this narrative, whether it was firing Comey, or repeatedly lying about the Trump Tower meeting, or repeatedly beating up the FBI on his Twitter feed for no reason. He caused people to suspect he did something wrong.
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It seems like it worked the other way first-- the FBI et. al. suspected he did "something wrong" and went scorched earth on it, which caused Trump to push back.

We know only that Mueller could not prove the crime of conspiracy beyond a reasonable doubt. We also know that despite the fact that Mueller could not prove conspiracy, Trump still did many questionable things he should not have done.
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It would seem, though, that the Obama Admin did questionable things as well-- such as use unverified Clinton campaign document in a court proceeding and apparently in an intelligence assessment as to the activities of the Trump campaign.



Trump is a thug and a crook. We know this because of the way he treated his subcontractors and the way he committed massive tax fraud. Trump just thinks he's above the law and wants the game rigged in his favor.
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Harry Reid recent comment on accurate: Trump wishes to always control the narrative.



The problem with your argument is that the summary of the call transcript, Volker's testimony and collection of texts, and the testimony of various State Dept. and NSC officials, and Trump's own behavior are proving what the whistleblower said to be true.
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As per the selected release of the Democrats.
It doesnt really change the narrative though. Matt Taibi has a recent article pointing out that the Intelligence agencies were against Trump even before he was inaugurated.



Be specific. What is it that you want them to do, and what is it that you want Republicans to do?
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I think everyone is targeting their particular political nightmare. There does need to continue that investigation into the origins of the Russia probe. I think there does need to be some examination as to motives.
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MSgt said:
An "American" objective is not the same thing as a "Trump" objective.
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Yeah-- but because an American objective benefits Trump does not disqualify it as benefiting the country.

You know this. What Trump was trying to do was absolutely a selfish act and it sought to harm American citizens for his personal political gain. To make this truth credible, one only needs to reflect on his firing a career ambassador to Ukraine for no real given reason, using an inexperienced ambassador for the EU that has nothing to do with Ukraine, and using a personal lawyer as a go between, who should have nothing to do with anything between a U.S. President and a foreign government. Even that hawkish idiot, Bolton, knows that Giuliani is a "hand grenade." He's the one that has consistently encouraged and supported Trump's personal obsession over this Ukraine crap. Why would Trump not use the established career diplomat to Ukraine and the State Department to reach an American objective? Because, obviously, it was a Trump objective, not an American objective. Trying to mix the two is FOX News spin. The American objective is to support Ukraine against Russia, not withhold money for logical reasons not given.
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The money was released and the reasons for possibly withholding was given-- an investigation into the origins of the Russia probe. That you dispute the need for such an investigation is fine. But that is nothing more than a political objection, and that objection should not be morphed into anything other than that.

And isn't it funny how Trump & Co. have made a name for themselves denigrating everything Obama, yet periodically seek to borrow integrity from his actions? The man did the same thing when Mattis quit his Administration. Using Obama's actions with Ukraine, which involved the State Department and corresponded with all of Western Europe's governments, is clear desperation.
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And the question, with respect to the statements of Mr. Biden, is whether his son took advantage of USA policy for his own personal benefit.
But as the transcript shows, the Biden issue was secondary.

This Trump objective is made worse when this involves trying to create dirt from a widely debunked issue.
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Whether the Obama Admin had the proper predicate to suspect that Mr. Trump was conspiring with Russia has scarcely been "debunked."

And the Russia probe is a smokescreen. The Mueller inquiry was the investigation; and it was Trump himself that turned it into an attack upon himself. Along the way, despite "no collusion," Trump tried to kill the investigation. Must have been something.
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Yes. He was being unjustly accused of committing a heinous crime. I would suspect lots of people would be outraged facing a similar situation for themselves.
Especially if that accusation was sapping an ability to effectively do his or her job.

But why would Trump seek to launch an investigation in to the investigation that he tried to kill? It's more BS and conspiracy theory from a BS President who thrives on promoting conspiracy theories. Hold the man finally accountable already.
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The conspiracy theory of the past few years has been that the Trump campaign conspired with Russia. One ought be interested how this came about.
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Athanasius68 said:
Yes-- an investigation into the origins of the Russia probe.
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FOX News propaganda.

Athanasius68 said:
In other words, they didn't know.
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Well, in those exact words. If you read my statement again, you will see that I declared this. You are being obtuse.

Athanasius68 said:
You mean why didn't spend the last few years going after Biden?
Are you aware of the Russia probe? Do you really think Democrats would have had any different reaction to an 'investigation into the investigation' than they do now?
C'mon.
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I am aware that after the GOP owned Congress for four years and the White House for two, they accomplished nothing into their conspiracy theories regarding Clinton, Obama, or Biden. Know why? Because even they know that there is nothing there. OR they are simply incompetent.

I am aware that the Russia probe is as BS as a Benghazi investigation, or a birth certificate investigation, or any of the other conspiracy theory investigations that desperate Conservatives cling to in order to create their reality and the GOP uses to get re-elected. I know that Trump was determined to kill the Mueller investigation for unknown reasons (fear of issue like Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman coming out?), and now seeks to use the "Russia probe" as a smokescreen for his innocence and to promote the conspiracy of a deep state. I am aware that nobody cared about the widely debunked Biden issue except Donald Trump and Giuliani and even this really didn't seem to matter until Trump felt that Biden was a political threat to his re-election and wanted to entertain the conspiracy.

You see, I am one of those smart people who do not have their heads up their asses. It is entirely absurd that you can see a situation where a U.S. President uses a personal lawyer, not the State Department, and an ambassador to the EU, not the Ambassador to Ukraine, to conduct this business with Ukraine, and not see it for the personal crusade that it obviously is. I find it ridiculous that you can ignore Trump's spin instructions to the muddied transcript and pretend that Trump wasn't worried about what it looked like. I find it telling that you choose to ignore that Giuliani was using two Soviet-born businessmen, Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman, to deal with Ukraine. It is a senseless position to pretend that withholding Congressionally approved money to Ukraine right before the call isn't connected. And I find it irrational that after all of this common sense smacking us about the face, you choose to focus on the widely debunked Biden conspiracy BS and dastardly Democrats. FOX News at work.
 
Athanasius68 said:
Yeah-- but because an American objective benefits Trump does not disqualify it as benefiting the country.
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This would be true if Trump used the established diplomat to Ukraine and the State Department to conduct America's business. But he didn't did he? He knew he had to use a personal lawyer, who used two guilty Soviet-born foreigners who were charged with campaign fraud, and a loyalist diplomat to the EU, who had nothing to do with Ukraine. This makes it Trump's business in America's name, not America's business.


Athanasius68 said:
The money was released and the reasons for possibly withholding was given-- an investigation into the origins of the Russia probe.
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BS was given because the obvious truth is damaging. And the fact that Trump issued spin instructions for the muddied transcript to his Republican supporters proves that even he knows it. Further, his Republican supporters knew it because they spent the entire weekend pretending to reporters that they hadn't bothered to read the transcript while refusing to use the spin that FOX News gravitated towards.


Athanasius68 said:
But as the transcript shows, the Biden issue was secondary
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Lie. This is not what the transcript shows. The Biden issue was central to Trump's conversation and central to Zelensky's side was an enthusiasm for more support. And as the Ukrainian officials stated, they had been feeling that pressure from Trump White House for some time.

Athanasius68 said:
Whether the Obama Admin had the proper predicate to suspect that Mr. Trump was conspiring with Russia has scarcely been "debunked."
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Good grief. Nobody suspected that until Trump began obstructing. Given what we now know about Giuliani's associates, Igor Fruman & Lev Parnas, we know that suspicion of campaign fraud had and continues to have merit.

What has been widely debunked is the Biden conspiracy theory that both Trump and Giuliani can't let go. After getting caught trying to invent dirt through this conspiracy, the idiot doubled down and then publicly asked China to jump on his personal crusade as if this would somehow make him look transparent and earnest about stamping out corruption. In the meantime, his use of the military and foreign governments to create revenue for his foreign failing businesses, his persistent damage to American influence in virtually every region on the planet, and his betrayal of allies on a whim makes him the most corrupted President in our history. He beats even Grant at this point, because Grant never placed foreign governments above the U.S. for his personal gain. It is this irrational obsession with Biden that got them caught; and this is reminiscent of Nixon and Kissinger's obsessions that got Nixon caught.

Athanasius68 said:
Yes. He was being unjustly accused of committing a heinous crime.
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HE WASN'T BEING ACCUSED OF ****ING ANYTHING! Trump made that investigation about himself, and in the course of doing so, committed criminal acts to obstruct. At the outset, the Mueller investigation wasn’t about what Donald Trump had done during campaign. It was an investigation about what the Russians had done to interfere with that election and to help the Trump campaign. It was about Russia, not Trump. It was a counterintelligence investigation, an effort to protect the country and to defend our democracy. It was Trump who accused himself by playing the victim. It was Trump that began using "collusion." And it was Trump that routinely sought ways to obstruct. Trump knew he was obviously guilty of something and this is why Trump took the initiative of a "witch hunt." And now that we know that Igor Fruman & Lev Parnas, two Soviet-born foreigners, funneled money to the Trump campaign through Giuliani, and Giuliani was using them with Ukraine this year, we can clearly see some of what Trump was probably worried about during the Mueller investigation.

And, by the way, the Mueller investigation was about what might have happened. Now, we see an investigation if what obviously did happen with Ukraine, according to Trump's own admission. Trump is guilty of heinous crimes. It's called treachery. Whether or not this goes beyond today's Ukraine issue is yet to be discovered. Again, it was Trump who made the Mueller investigation about himself, and it was Trump who obstructed for unknown reasons.


Athanasius68 said:
The conspiracy theory of the past few years has been that the Trump campaign conspired with Russia. One ought be interested how this came about.
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Um...maybe from the fact that at least two soviet-born foreigners funneled money to his campaign and Trump went on to behave like a Putin stooge for all the world to see?!
 
MSgt said:
That's because what you have "heard" comes from FOX News propaganda and lacks all the facts, thereby skewing the truth into BS. Remember those studies about FOX News I have shown you?

She, herself, was clear about having friction with Giuliani and his two foreign-born associates (Igor Fruman & Lev Parnas), who formerly gave money to a political action committee supporting Trump's campaign to purchase political influence (fraud) and was assisting Giuliani with his efforts to assist Trump with Ukraine for personal reasons (treachery). It was because of this friction that she was fired. The notion that she wasn't "loyal" to Trump is just more indictment.


Trump demands loyalty at all costs and this is exactly why his Cabinet has been a revolving door. And his staffers routinely spread rumors about Obama appointed professionals not being "loyal" as if loyalty to the country is supposed to come second. Yovanovitch is a victim of this trash, but were she not the ambassador to Ukraine, she would still be out there doing her job as she has always done. You are being obtuse, because you still really, really want to give the man the benefit of the doubt for whatever personal reasons you have. As I have stated enough times before, he does not deserve your loyalty. Your country does.
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How does that contradict what I said?
 
This would be true if Trump used the established diplomat to Ukraine and the State Department to conduct America's business. But he didn't did he? He knew he had to use a personal lawyer, who used two guilty Soviet-born foreigners who were charged with campaign fraud, and a loyalist diplomat to the EU, who had nothing to do with Ukraine. This makes it Trump's business in America's name, not America's business.
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He wouldn't be the first president to use non-governmental folks in such roles.




Lie. This is not what the transcript shows. The Biden issue was central to Trump's conversation and central to Zelensky's side was an enthusiasm for more support. And as the Ukrainian officials stated, they had been feeling that pressure from Trump White House for some time.
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That's exactly what the transcript shows. The majority of the call had nothing to do with Biden.


Good grief. Nobody suspected that until Trump began obstructing
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Let us not re-write history shall we? The Obama Admin was investigating the Trump campaign from the spring of 2016.


HE WASN'T BEING ACCUSED OF ****ING ANYTHING! Trump made that investigation about himself, and in the course of doing so, committed criminal acts to obstruct. At the outset, the Mueller investigation wasn’t about what Donald Trump had done during campaign. It was an investigation about what the Russians had done to interfere with that election and to help the Trump campaign. It was about Russia, not Trump. It was a counterintelligence investigation, an effort to protect the country and to defend our democracy. It was Trump who accused himself by playing the victim. It was Trump that began using "collusion." And it was Trump that routinely sought ways to obstruct. Trump knew he was obviously guilty of something and this is why Trump took the initiative of a "witch hunt."
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Mueller was appointed to continue the Comey investigation into whether Trump campaign had conspired with Russia. It didnt generate out of the ground.
And you know this.
To suspect the Trump campaign of conspiracy by definition is to suspect Trump.


And, by the way, the Mueller investigation was about what might have happened. Now, we see an investigation if what obviously did happen with Ukraine, according to Trump's own admission. Trump is guilty of heinous crimes. It's called treachery. Whether or not this goes beyond today's Ukraine issue is yet to be discovered. Again, it was Trump who made the Mueller investigation about himself, and it was Trump who obstructed for unknown reasons.
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The Mueller investigation was about Trump. Thats all anyone cared about and was the only reason why Mueller was appointed as opposed to simply investigating through normal DOJ systems.
 
Integrityrespec said:
Take it from the mouths of those who should know. No quid pro quo. I didn't feel any pressure. The Ukrainians were not even aware of any aid being held up. Is it wrong for a President to ask a President of a corrupt country to reveal any corruption stemming from the 2016 election if he knows about it. Only in the minds of democrats. But now we know that democrats asked for help from the Brits, the russians via the brits, the Ukrainians, the Australians and the Italians.
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Mulvaney just admitted to the quid pro quo this morning.

Time for republicans to move the goal posts.
 
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