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Giuliani consulted on Ukraine with imprisoned Paul Manafort via a lawyer

bubbabgone said:
If you have something that has Trump talking about pressuring Zelensky about investigating Biden for the sake of his election that would be damaging.
Short of that all you have is a discussion about corruption and speculation that's not evidence for impeachment.
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But in this case since he was clearly talking about corruption you'd need to be a mind reader or hopelessly partisan to think otherwise.
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You claim the conversation was clearly about corruption, because the election was never mentioned, but corruption was never mentioned either. So why do you say they were clearly talking about corruption?
 
HAL9000 said:
You claim the conversation was clearly about corruption, because the election was never mentioned, but corruption was never mentioned either. So why do you say they were clearly talking about corruption?
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Of course they were talking about corruption:
"President Zelenskyy: Well yes, to tell you the truth, we are trying to work hard because we wanted to drain the swamp here in our country. We brought in many many new people. Not the old politicians, not the typical politicians, because we want to have a new format and a new type of government. You are a great teacher for us and in that."
And it went on from there.
It was 4 long exchanges afterwards that Biden's name was mentioned and it was still in the context of corruption. And the corruption discussion continued after that.
 
lemmiwinx said:
A guy talking with a lawyer isn't collusion. What's collusion anyway and why is it bad if people talk to each other? Guess it's collusion if it's people you don't like.
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I see. It was just an innocent social visit by Trump's attorney, who was seeking to have the Ukrainian government investigate Joe Biden, and imprisoned Paul Manfort, who earned millions working for the corrupt pro-Russian political party, Ukraine's Party of Regions and its leader, Viktor Yanukovych.

Yup. Nothing to see here.
 
bubbabgone said:
Of course they were talking about corruption:
"President Zelenskyy: Well yes, to tell you the truth, we are trying to work hard because we wanted to drain the swamp here in our country. We brought in many many new people. Not the old politicians, not the typical politicians, because we want to have a new format and a new type of government. You are a great teacher for us and in that."
And it went on from there.
It was 4 long exchanges afterwards that Biden's name was mentioned and it was still in the context of corruption. And the corruption discussion continued after that.
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Isn't it amazing that some people found a quid pro quo so easily, but can't equate what you've highlighted to corruption? That view preys on willful ignorance and practiced deceit, but I'd never dream of accusing those folks of such a thing.
 
bubbabgone said:
Of course they were talking about corruption:
"President Zelenskyy: Well yes, to tell you the truth, we are trying to work hard because we wanted to drain the swamp here in our country. We brought in many many new people. Not the old politicians, not the typical politicians, because we want to have a new format and a new type of government. You are a great teacher for us and in that."
And it went on from there.
It was 4 long exchanges afterwards that Biden's name was mentioned and it was still in the context of corruption. And the corruption discussion continued after that.
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But Zelensky talked about elections too. I don't see Trump saying anything about corruption.
 
HAL9000 said:
But Zelensky talked about elections too. I don't see Trump saying anything about corruption.
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Then you need to read it again. Corruption was the topic being discussed.
Zelensky talked about his own recent election and "drain[ing] the swamp here in our country" being a major reason he was elected.
You're not going to get anything worthy of impeachment out of that phone call no matter how hard you try or no matter who you choose to believe says there was.
It just wasn't there.
 
bubbabgone said:
Then you need to read it again. Corruption was the topic being discussed.
Zelensky talked about his own recent election and "drain[ing] the swamp here in our country" being a major reason he was elected.
You're not going to get anything worthy of impeachment out of that phone call no matter how hard you try or no matter who you choose to believe says there was.
It just wasn't there.
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Really? I mean you're saying they're clearly talking about corruption, too bad you can't back that up.
 
Giuliani is starting to smell like a chum bucket that's been sitting out in the sun all day. I think Bolton was right about his reference to Giuliani as a hand grenade that was going to blow everyone up.
 
HAL9000 said:
Really? I mean you're saying they're clearly talking about corruption, too bad you can't back that up.
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It's backed up by the actual words spoken.
Too bad you're locked into having to deny it.
What do you think they were talking about?
 
bubbabgone said:
It's backed up by the actual words spoken.
Too bad you're locked into having to deny it.
What do you think they were talking about?
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It's not backed up by the actual words spoken. Too bad you're locked into having too deny it.

I mean, this wasn't a spontaneous conversation after all. What they were going to talk about was laid out clearly, before they talked about it.

[7/19/19, 7:01:22 PM] Kurt Volker: Good. Had breakfast with Rudy this morning-teeing up call w Yermak Monday. Must have helped. Most impt is for Zelensky to say that he will help investigation—and address any specific personnel issues—if there are any
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There are no mentions of corruption in the Volker texts either.
 
HAL9000 said:
It's not backed up by the actual words spoken. Too bad you're locked into having too deny it.

I mean, this wasn't a spontaneous conversation after all. What they were going to talk about was laid out clearly, before they talked about it.



There are no mentions of corruption in the Volker texts either.
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Investigations of what?
 
bubbabgone said:
Investigations of what?
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Of Hunter Biden and Cloudstrike. But Trump didn't have probable cause, otherwise, he could have gone through the proper channels and used the Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty. Instead, he violated it.
 
HAL9000 said:
Of Hunter Biden and Cloudstrike. But Trump didn't have probable cause, otherwise, he could have gone through the proper channels and used the Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty. Instead, he violated it.
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So ... investigation of Ukraine corruption that involved the USA.
 
bubbabgone said:
So ... investigation of Ukraine corruption that involved the USA.
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Trump's imagination alone isn't enough to meet the standard of probable cause. That's why he couldn't go through the proper channels.
 
HAL9000 said:
Trump's imagination alone isn't enough to meet the standard of probable cause. That's why he couldn't go through the proper channels.
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You're sounding ridiculous.
Probable cause is needed to suggest the Ukraine has corruption problems????? That's what you're left with?
A president can suggest what's common knowledge ... that Ukraine needs to clean up their act.
 
bubbabgone said:
You're sounding ridiculous.
Probable cause is needed to suggest the Ukraine has corruption problems????? That's what you're left with?
A president can suggest what's common knowledge ... that Ukraine needs to clean up their act.
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Probable cause is needed to open investigations. Trump specifically mentioned investigations, not some wider effort to clean up their act.
 
HAL9000 said:
Probable cause is needed to open investigations. Trump specifically mentioned investigations, not some wider effort to clean up their act.
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Who do you think needs probable cause to open what investigations, where would those investigations be done, and what would be investigated?
 
MTAtech said:
I see. It was just an innocent social visit by Trump's attorney, who was seeking to have the Ukrainian government investigate Joe Biden, and imprisoned Paul Manfort, who earned millions working for the corrupt pro-Russian political party, Ukraine's Party of Regions and its leader, Viktor Yanukovych.

Yup. Nothing to see here.
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I'm looking at it on a strictly legal basis you know. There's no crime so why is this news?
 
lemmiwinx said:
Two people can't talk with each other though one of them is in prison for personal financial dealings nothing to do with anything? I fail to see a problem here.

Manafort is in prison because he was Trump's campaign manager so the FBI investigated him and found some crimes in his past before he ever worked for Trump. This is what it's come to in politics with the FBI and CIA getting involved.
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Manfort is in prison because he is a traitor who worked for Putin without registering as a foreign agent it as well as failing to report over $12 million he received from him to the IRS. Jail is too good for scum like him. More of Trump's associates are also in line for orange jumpsuits. Guilliani, Pompeo and Barr should start getting their affairs in order.

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