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Judge dismisses President Trump's lawsuit seeking to block subpoena for tax returns

Re: Judge dismisses Trump request to keep taxes secret in New York

Glitch said:
It is not just the President who is immune from criminal prosecution while in office, but also the "Vice President and all civil officers of the United States." They must be impeached and removed from office before any criminal prosecution takes place.
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lol

Nope, not even close. The only person who cannot face federal indictments is the POTUS, and that's it. Everyone else can be indicted by the DoJ, and by extension any other jurisdiction. And that's only a matter of DoJ policy, it's not a constitutional requirement.

The official DoJ position is:

....the Office of Legal Counsel (“ OLC” ) prepared a comprehensive memorandum in the fall of 1973 that analyzed whether all federal civil officers are immune from indictment or criminal prosecution while in office, and, if not, whether the President and Vice President in particular are immune from indictment or criminal prosecution while in office.... The OLC memorandum concluded that all federal civil officers except the President are subject to indictment and criminal prosecution while still in office; the President is uniquely immune from such process.

And again, we have a 75 page ruling by a federal judge explaining how and why the POTUS is not immune from all criminal prosecutions. That's the whole point of this thread, to discuss that ruling. Nothing you're saying even remotely addresses any of the judge's points. Have you even bothered to glance at it?

And again, the Constitution does NOT say "all jurisdictions must wait until the POTUS has been impeached." No, what it's doing is pointing out that impeachment is a political process, not a criminal proceeding. If it was a criminal proceeding, then prosecuting a President convicted by the Senate would be double jeopardy. Thus, that section is saying "once the POTUS is out, you can prosecute him or her for the same actions that resulted in the loss of office."
 
Re: Judge dismisses Trump request to keep taxes secret in New York

Glitch said:
It is not just the President who is immune from criminal prosecution while in office, but also the "Vice President and all civil officers of the United States." They must be impeached and removed from office before any criminal prosecution takes place.

Article II, Section 4, Clause 1 of the US Constitution:

The President, Vice President and all civil officers of the United States, shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors.

If the Senate fails to convict, as you describe in your hypothetical example, then the individual in question may complete his/her elected term. Only after they have left public office could they then be prosecuted for any criminal act. Exactly like what happened to Slick Willy. Clinton was impeached by the House and the Senate failed to convict and remove him from office. Therefore, he could not be prosecuted for any of the crimes for which he was impeached, until after he left office. Only after he left office did they revoke his license to practice law and impose huge fines for his crimes.
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Article II, Section 4, Clause 1 doesn't shield the President from criminal prosecution.

It's not an issue that has ever been deciding in court.

You are probably trying to refer to an OLC memo that says the President cannot be prosecuted while in office. The Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) is an office in the United States Department of Justice that assists the Attorney General's position as legal adviser to the President and all executive branch agencies.
 
Re: Judge dismisses Trump request to keep taxes secret in New York

Glitch said:
It is not just the President who is immune from criminal prosecution while in office, but also the "Vice President and all civil officers of the United States." They must be impeached and removed from office before any criminal prosecution takes place.

Article II, Section 4, Clause 1 of the US Constitution:


If the Senate fails to convict, as you describe in your hypothetical example, then the individual in question may complete his/her elected term. Only after they have left public office could they then be prosecuted for any criminal act. Exactly like what happened to Slick Willy. Clinton was impeached by the House and the Senate failed to convict and remove him from office. Therefore, he could not be prosecuted for any of the crimes for which he was impeached, until after he left office. Only after he left office did they revoke his license to practice law and impose huge fines for his crimes.
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I do not think the founders intended to create an office that had immunity for acts that are clearly criminal in nature. The impeachment clause was intended to give the other two branches the power to remove a President for political reasons. It was never intended to sheild a President for murder or other acts not related to his official duties. Remember that they created this system in response to a monarchy where the King could evade all punishment and run wild. Clintons case with Jones was a civil matter yet they allowed it to proceed. Are you saying that they would not proceed if Clinton had murdered Jones? I doubt that very much.
 
MauiMan said:
Tax evasion, anyone?
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The IRS would've nailed him YEARS ago if he was committing Tax Evasion. And if he did evade paying his taxes, he could change his name to "Al Sharpton", identify as a Black man and he'll be scott free.
 
Notice Harshaw....the "lawyer", is not anywhere to be found when Trump supporters are making asinine and inaccurate comments about the law.
 
Moderate Right said:
Please post the law that a president must release their tax return.
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The secretary of the treasury (or his delegate) "shall furnish" the chairman of the ways and means committee with any tax return or return information requested in writing.

Meaning our current secretary of the treasury under trump is also breaking the law in his effort to protect this president.
 
bongsaway said:
The secretary of the treasury (or his delegate) "shall furnish" the chairman of the ways and means committee with any tax return or return information requested in writing.

Meaning our current secretary of the treasury under trump is also breaking the law in his effort to protect this president.
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That's a law that needs challenged. It's Congress's way of weaponizing the IRS.
 
American said:
A communist state motto....
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Oh, really? So no one objected to Jake Sullivan taking the 5th Amendment during the Benghazi hearings? Oh okay. :roll:


I mean **** the 4th Amendment, right?
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What the **** are you talking about?

There's no 4th Amendment issue here. The prosecutors issued a legal subpoena, and Trump's lawyers are fighting it on the absurd claim that no one in the Executive Branch can be investigated for potential crimes. They never claimed that the request constituted an illegal search.

Not to mention that usually when people talk about hiding or a presumption of innocence, they are typically referring to the 5TH Amendment, not the 4th.
 
Roadvirus said:
The IRS would've nailed him YEARS ago if he was committing Tax Evasion. And if he did evade paying his taxes, he could change his name to "Al Sharpton", identify as a Black man and he'll be scott free.
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He’s slippery, that's for sure. Trump's companies have been involved in more than 100 tax disputes, and on "at least three dozen" occasions the New York State Department of Taxation and Finance has obtained tax liens against Trump properties for nonpayment of taxes:

Exclusive: Trump's 3,500 lawsuits unprecedented for a presidential nominee

On a number of occasions, Trump has threatened legal action but did not ultimately follow through:

Trump’s Long Trail of Litigation - WSJ
 
Re: Judge dismisses Trump request to keep taxes secret in New York

Vadinho said:
I do not think the founders intended to create an office that had immunity for acts that are clearly criminal in nature. The impeachment clause was intended to give the other two branches the power to remove a President for political reasons. It was never intended to sheild a President for murder or other acts not related to his official duties. Remember that they created this system in response to a monarchy where the King could evade all punishment and run wild. Clintons case with Jones was a civil matter yet they allowed it to proceed. Are you saying that they would not proceed if Clinton had murdered Jones? I doubt that very much.
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Criminal prosecution is merely delayed until they are no longer in an elected office. It is a very temporary form of immunity, nor is the President, Vice President and all civil officers of the US, the only ones granted temporary immunity while in elected office by the US Constitution:
The Senators and Representatives shall receive a compensation for their services, to be ascertained by law, and paid out of the treasury of the United States. They shall in all cases, except treason, felony and breach of the peace, be privileged from arrest during their attendance at the session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any speech or debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other place.
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Article I, Section 6, Clause 1 of the US Constitution

You are the one who is making the completely ludicrous assumption that the Senate will not vote to convict a President who has committed murder. There is no "shield" if they are removed from office and tried for their crimes.

The purpose of impeachment is to remove publicly elected officials from office for criminal reasons, not political reasons. Which is why impeachment only pertains to "treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors." What Democrats are doing now is for political reasons, which is why it will fail. Impeachment is the political process of removing an elected official from office for committing crimes. Which is why an impeachment can never be more than simple removal from office. After they have been removed, then the criminal process can begin.
 
Re: Judge dismisses Trump request to keep taxes secret in New York

Glitch said:
Criminal prosecution is merely delayed until they are no longer in an elected office. It is a very temporary form of immunity, nor is the President, Vice President and all civil officers of the US, the only ones granted temporary immunity while in elected office by the US Constitution:

Article I, Section 6, Clause 1 of the US Constitution

You are the one who is making the completely ludicrous assumption that the Senate will not vote to convict a President who has committed murder. There is no "shield" if they are removed from office and tried for their crimes.

The purpose of impeachment is to remove publicly elected officials from office for criminal reasons, not political reasons. Which is why impeachment only pertains to "treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors." What Democrats are doing now is for political reasons, which is why it will fail. Impeachment is the political process of removing an elected official from office for committing crimes. Which is why an impeachment can never be more than simple removal from office. After they have been removed, then the criminal process can begin.
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Am I? This Senate is capable of anything and there is nothing in the Constitution compelling them to act. Trump has done the nation only one favor, he has shown us that despite Madison and Hamilton's best efforts, we can become a dictatorship or monarchy even within the law. Go read the debates at the convention, they did not ever suggest that the only remedy for a lawless President was impeachment. Why? Because they never envisioned a corrupt President, AG and Senate all co-existing at the same time. Checks and balances only work with honorable people who understand their duties and roles. We are entering uncharted waters here that may even force either the people or the military to resolve. Scary times.
 
Watching all of those who've been starting their threads and posts with "I didn't vote for Trump" and then proceed to defend him on some BS cry so hard is amazing.

Who didn't know certain folks would start defending Trump the minute he got into office if he won?

Sent from the Matrioshka in the WH Christmas tree.
 
Re: Judge dismisses Trump request to keep taxes secret in New York

Glitch said:
Then name it. It is not probable cause unless you can actually articulate the crime that has been, is in the process of being, or will be, committed.
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Trump applied for loans with Deutsche Bank. In going for these loans, he lists certain assets as collateral. Investigation shows that these assets were inflated on these documents: buildings claimed more floors than they really have, developments claiming more units to be sold than they really had, etc. This constitutes bank fraud.
 
Re: Judge dismisses Trump request to keep taxes secret in New York

Deuce said:
Trump applied for loans with Deutsche Bank. In going for these loans, he lists certain assets as collateral. Investigation shows that these assets were inflated on these documents: buildings claimed more floors than they really have, developments claiming more units to be sold than they really had, etc. This constitutes bank fraud.
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Anyone who still doesn't understand that Trump is a fraud simply hasn't been paying attention.
 
Re: Judge dismisses Trump request to keep taxes secret in New York

Vadinho said:
Am I? This Senate is capable of anything and there is nothing in the Constitution compelling them to act. Trump has done the nation only one favor, he has shown us that despite Madison and Hamilton's best efforts, we can become a dictatorship or monarchy even within the law. Go read the debates at the convention, they did not ever suggest that the only remedy for a lawless President was impeachment. Why? Because they never envisioned a corrupt President, AG and Senate all co-existing at the same time. Checks and balances only work with honorable people who understand their duties and roles. We are entering uncharted waters here that may even force either the people or the military to resolve. Scary times.
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You are making the ridiculous assumption that the President is O.J. Simpson and the Senate is the jury that refuses to convict a murderer. You have to live in a really screwed up fantasy-world to believe such utter nonsense.

We've had a completely corrupt federal government for quite some time, and it certainly didn't begin with Trump. Or did you think it was functioning correctly when AG Holder violated the law, Obama made up the law out of thin air, and Congress did nothing? It is so utterly corrupt because we've become a nation of civic illiterates since the Democrats nationalized education in 1980. Nobody has the vaguest clue how their own government functions any longer. Which is why they vote for Presidents who make promises that only Congress can keep. Or blame Presidents for acts of Congress. The longer we remain civically illiterate as a nation, the more corrupt the federal government will become. Which was why Democrats abolished civics education.

It is scary times only for the anti-American left, who have demonstrated that they are extremely violent and destructive whenever they lose an election. Even to the point of attempting an illegal coup. If you think the American people have forgotten the violence and destruction of property after the 2016 election by the insane anti-American fascist left you are sadly mistaken. It is certainly going to cost the Democratic Party in 2020.
 
Re: Judge dismisses Trump request to keep taxes secret in New York

Glitch said:
We've had a completely corrupt federal government for quite some time, and it certainly didn't begin with Trump. Or did you think it was functioning correctly when AG Holder violated the law, Obama made up the law out of thin air, and Congress did nothing?
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What the what?


It is so utterly corrupt because we've become a nation of civic illiterates since the Democrats nationalized education in 1980. Nobody has the vaguest clue how their own government functions any longer.
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Oh, the irony


It is scary times only for the anti-American left, who have demonstrated that they are extremely violent and destructive whenever they lose an election. Even to the point of attempting an illegal coup.
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What the **** are you talking about?

There is no "coup." Impeachment is a Constitutional process. If Trump is convicted by the Senate, then Pence becomes President, and the Republicans still hold a majority in the Senate. Are you suggesting that Pence is manipulating Congress to throw Trump out of office? Do you need a little timeout in the Conspiracy Theory forum?


If you think the American people have forgotten the violence and destruction of property after the 2016 election by the insane anti-American fascist left you are sadly mistaken.
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What the **** are you talking about?
 
Re: Judge dismisses Trump request to keep taxes secret in New York

Visbek said:
What the what?



Oh, the irony



What the **** are you talking about?

There is no "coup." Impeachment is a Constitutional process. If Trump is convicted by the Senate, then Pence becomes President, and the Republicans still hold a majority in the Senate. Are you suggesting that Pence is manipulating Congress to throw Trump out of office? Do you need a little timeout in the Conspiracy Theory forum?



What the **** are you talking about?
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He can't answer that, because he has no idea, either.
 
Re: Judge dismisses Trump request to keep taxes secret in New York

Dittohead not! said:
Anyone who still doesn't understand that Trump is a fraud simply hasn't been paying attention.
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We've got millions of Americans who have never been paying attention, and never will.
 
Re: Judge dismisses Trump request to keep taxes secret in New York

Glitch said:
You are making the ridiculous assumption that the President is O.J. Simpson and the Senate is the jury that refuses to convict a murderer. You have to live in a really screwed up fantasy-world to believe such utter nonsense.

We've had a completely corrupt federal government for quite some time, and it certainly didn't begin with Trump. Or did you think it was functioning correctly when AG Holder violated the law, Obama made up the law out of thin air, and Congress did nothing? It is so utterly corrupt because we've become a nation of civic illiterates since the Democrats nationalized education in 1980. Nobody has the vaguest clue how their own government functions any longer. Which is why they vote for Presidents who make promises that only Congress can keep. Or blame Presidents for acts of Congress. The longer we remain civically illiterate as a nation, the more corrupt the federal government will become. Which was why Democrats abolished civics education.

It is scary times only for the anti-American left, who have demonstrated that they are extremely violent and destructive whenever they lose an election. Even to the point of attempting an illegal coup. If you think the American people have forgotten the violence and destruction of property after the 2016 election by the insane anti-American fascist left you are sadly mistaken. It is certainly going to cost the Democratic Party in 2020.
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you say It is so utterly corrupt because we've become a nation of civic illiterates since the Democrats nationalized education in 1980.
lets see it sure looks like the Republicans had the Presidency and Senate in the 1980's ( control of the US Government )
Presidents and Congresses
so explain to us just how did the Dems Nationalize education in the 1980's
have a nice day
 
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