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2nd whistleblower comes forward after speaking with IG: Attorney

apdst said:
Did Maddow and Matthews tell you to post that?
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It has to be a shame for people not to know that they are being conned by Rush, Sean and Trump. That's really sad.
 


The U.S. Constitution starts with, "We the People not with me the President."
 
Fletch said:
What does it matter now? We know the contents of the call
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The more evidence the better?

We know what the WH/Trump administration released, but we don't necessarily have an exact transcript of the call.

Although what they released did include Trump asking Ukraine to investigate Biden, which is not something he's allowed to do.

And Trump did do the same thing along with asking China to do so as well, during a press conference last week.
 
The Mark said:
The more evidence the better?

We know what the WH/Trump administration released, but we don't necessarily have an exact transcript of the call.

Although what they released did include Trump asking Ukraine to investigate Biden, which is not something he's allowed to do.
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Why not?
 
Beowulf said:
Why not?
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As I understand it, it's because Biden is his political rival.

It appears very likely that the request was made to damage said political rival, which means any investigation Ukraine might do as a result of the request would be an in-kind contribution.

It's not acceptable for other nations to interfere in our elections like that.


Now, if there's a legit reason for an investigation, then he ought to have told one of our investigative bodies, probably the FBI, to investigate. If they needed help from Ukraine, or wanted a joint investigation or even an investigation by Ukraine, then ask them through the state department or whatever.

But asking directly like this appears very questionable, especially with the implied quid-pro-quo part added in.
 
Iron_Merc said:
Spoken like a true socialist.
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FYI: I'm a former Republican. I'm also a businessman. The vast majority of my income throughout my adult life, and even during my teenage years, was generated through entrepreneurial activities (i.e. capitalism), not through a salary or an hourly wage.

So when you try to label me a socialist you have absolutely NO CLUE what you're talking about.

I can address two points here - the "of" and "by". At the founding of our nation the populous was overwhelmingly white. The government at that time was nearly 100% run by white, well educated men. This means our society, at its roots, is one of white Christian heritage, so it is wise to show your respect.
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Lol, wtf is this?

And I want to be clear, this DOES NOT indicate racism, its simply a result of having a near 100% white society in the late 1700s. Moreover, the founding fathers envisioned an open, free society for all races and all walks of life. And that vision evidently came true, as America is one of the most racially diverse nations in the world. Think I'm wrong? Lets take a look at the people who signed the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution in just a moment.
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Yeah, I don't disagree with this statement. My criticism concerns Breitbart, specifically, and the alt-right, more broadly. They tend to think that the only people who should be allowed to live in western societies are white people. I don't agree.

This is categorically false if you are referring to the United States government. Our nation was born out of Christianity, men of faith, who were inspired by God and wanted to practice their Christian faith without fear of persecution.
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Look, I don't disagree that Christianity is an important part of Western and American history. But you seem to think that the founding fathers prayed the Constitution into existence. That's not what happened. They THOUGHT about it. They TALKED about it. They did not sit around, praying, waiting for the rapture, and throwing money and praise at preachers in return for their political support. They implemented a practical solution for their own society, and also human societies in general.

Our nation was both born and inspired by the Word of God. The bible laid the moral foundation and it also guided the men of government to create the most free country on earth. Christianity is a respecter of both persons and other religions and these attributes should be honored and remembered for fostering individualism, creativity and personal worth, innovation and economic viability, to name a few. The Virginians in Jamestown, the Puritans in Massachusetts Bay, the Quakers in Pennsylvania and other early settlers of what later became the United States all brought with them elements of capitalism, precursors of the future nation's market-driven direction. And this ultimately laid the foundation for the worlds most powerful economic engine.

Signing of the Declaration of Independence and Constitution

As I said, and what should now be crystal clear, our nation was founded by white, Godfearing Christians
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Everything you're saying is more or less true, but the founding fathers weren't just reading the King James Bible and spending 100% of their time in church, okay? They did more during the day than pray and read the bible. They read John Locke. They read Montesquieu. They read Rousseau. They read the history of English law. It's not like they were transported through time Jesus Christ lived, and landed on the North American continent and began implementing some sort of religious society based directly on the bible. They brought with them the whole rich history of Western civilization, which included 1,500 or so years of civilizational progress. They weren't "just Christians".

Also, yes, the country was founded by white Christians, but that doesn't mean that non-Christians and non-white people cannot participate in our society, or in western societies, as well

Also, yes, the country was founded by white Christians, but that doesn't mean that organizations like SPLC, ACLUS, and George Soros's various foundations are evil, or don't also look to the principles and values which inspired the founding fathers.

Liberals: The mutual exclusion argument is already dead in the water so don't try it. And nothing I said here is racist, Im simply recognizing the historical roots of our great nation.
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What does what you're writing have to do with anything? What does it have to do with George Soros or the ACLU or the SPLC?

Mr. Logician You should now understand what the term "liberal revisionists" is all about. They dont seek the truth, I can tell you that much!
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I don't agree with them, and I don't agree with you. And some of the founding fathers weren't Christian either.
 
The Mark said:
As I understand it, it's because Biden is his political rival.

It appears very likely that the request was made to damage said political rival, which means any investigation Ukraine might do as a result of the request would be an in-kind contribution.

It's not acceptable for other nations to interfere in our elections like that.

Now, if there's a legit reason for an investigation, then he ought to have told one of our investigative bodies, probably the FBI, to investigate. If they needed help from Ukraine, or wanted a joint investigation or even an investigation by Ukraine, then ask them through the state department or whatever.

But asking directly like this appears very questionable, especially with the implied quid-pro-quo part added in.
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Would it be the responsibility of the executive branch to investigate allegations of corruption against a US citizen?
 
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W_Heisenberg said:
You and every single Trump supporter deserve to be criticized...personally, directly. You need to know what you're doing is wrong.

And everyone else needs to grow a spine and call each and every one of you out for supporting the most corrupt, authoritarian, and thuggish individuals to ever occupy the office of the Presidency.

The Republican officeholders who remain silent or continue to support Trump by regigurtating his propaganda need to be removed from office via impeachment, recall, or election.

There needs to be massive, nation-wide non-violent protests in support of the impeachment and against Republicans who engage in treasonous behavior.

Time to stop being nice, time to stop saying "excuse me", "thank you", and "pretty please".

You're not going to do it. You're not going to wreck the Republic because you cannot see past your own selfish concerns.

What Trump is doing is wrong. What Republicans are doing by supporting Trump is wrong. What you are doing on here, on this forum, by supporting Trump, is wrong.

Knock it off.

Knock it the f off.
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Your opinion is noted, it's wrong of course, but noted.
 
Beowulf said:
Would it be the responsibility of the executive branch to investigate allegations of corruption against a US citizen?
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I don't know precisely.

But assuming it is, it shouldn't involve the president asking another nation's president for a favor which involves a political rival.

It needs to go through channels, to avoid even the possibility of appearing to ask another country for personal political favors.
 
Beowulf said:
Would it be the responsibility of the executive branch to investigate allegations of corruption against a US citizen?
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Allegations or rank Conspiracy theories?

Because you're running on some debunked Conspiracy BS here.
 
The Mark said:
I don't know precisely.

But assuming it is, it shouldn't involve the president asking another nation's president for a favor which involves a political rival.
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The term "political rival" could apply to any US citizen eligible to be president. A restriction such as you're suggesting would render the executive branch impotent.
 
What if...? said:
Allegations or rank Conspiracy theories?

Because you're running on some debunked Conspiracy BS here.
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No. I'm not saying anyone conspired at all.
 
Beowulf said:
The term "political rival" could apply to any US citizen eligible to be president. A restriction such as you're suggesting would render the executive branch impotent.
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That would be the "failure to draw the line" fallacy

Like claiming that being against the death penalty make you pro murder.
 
What if...? said:
That would be the "failure to draw the line" fallacy

Like claiming that being against the death penalty make you pro murder.
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Huh?

Every person in that is eligible to be chosen as president is the current executive's political rival, no?
 
Beowulf said:
The term "political rival" could apply to any US citizen eligible to be president. A restriction such as you're suggesting would render the executive branch impotent.
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In theory perhaps, but in practice it reasonably applies to actual political rivals, such as in this case, a person running for the democratic party presidential candidate nomination.
 
The Mark said:
In theory perhaps, but in practice it reasonably applies to actual political rivals, such as in this case, a person running for the democratic party presidential candidate nomination.
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So a person who wished to be immune from criminal investigation by the executive could announce that they were running for president?
 
Beowulf said:
So a person who wished to be immune from criminal investigation by the executive could announce that they were running for president?
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I don't know precisely how it would work, but I expect there are reasonable ways to go about having an investigation done on a political rival if you in good faith think there needs to be one - you ask someone to investigate and don't interfere. There is probably a formal way of doing this that I don't know.


Edit: This of course assumes a trustworthy investigator/team is available. Trustworthy from the standpoint of getting to the facts of the case.
 
The Mark said:
I don't know precisely how it would work, but I expect there are reasonable ways to go about having an investigation done on a political rival if you in good faith think there needs to be one - you ask someone to investigate and don't interfere. There is probably a formal way of doing this that I don't know.


Edit: This of course assumes a trustworthy investigator/team is available. Trustworthy from the standpoint of getting to the facts of the case.
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What makes Joe Biden (and not any other Tom, Dick, or Harry) a political rival?
 
Beowulf said:
So a person who wished to be immune from criminal investigation by the executive could announce that they were running for president?
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Trump wasn't. :shrug:

The difference being those investigations were done by the F.B.I. and Justice Dept. working from actionable intel that was credible enough to get FISA warrants. This investigation into Biden on the other hand isn't a criminal investigation, is being handled by the President and his personal attorney and is being done on the basis of highly questionable right wing conspiracy theories.
 
I can't wait for Trump's mistresses and all his abortions to become public. I guess that will be after he's passed away but that's fine.

Men live to be about 70 to 80 so we should find out fairly soon.
 
Master Debator said:
Trump wasn't. :shrug:

The difference being those investigations were done by the F.B.I. and Justice Dept. working from actionable intel that was credible enough to get FISA warrants. This investigation into Biden on the other hand isn't a criminal investigation, is being handled by the President and his personal attorney and is being done on the basis of highly questionable right wing conspiracy theories.
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It was being done by the head of the executive branch? Is the executive branch allowed to investigate violations of US Code?
 
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